How Israel's Genocide Is Turning Jews Against Zionism | Simone Zimmerman |
Middle East Eye
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6,506 views May 16, 2026 ✪ Members first on May 14, 2026 UNAPOLOGETIC
"Palestinians are just the canvas upon which the Jewish psychodrama takes place."
Simone Zimmerman, co-founder of IfNotNow and subject of the documentary Israelism, joins UNAPOLOGETIC to examine how Israel's genocide in Gaza has reshaped Jewish identity and politics.
Simone traces her own journey from committed Zionist to anti-Zionist activist, describing the personal and communal ruptures that followed.
She argues that the decades-long fusion of Zionism with Judaism has been a catastrophe for Jewish life globally, and that Israel's genocide has made liberal Zionism untenable.
The conversation also tackles the growing anti-Israel voices within MAGA - and why, despite tactical overlaps on ending military aid, figures like Tucker Carlson and Candace Owens represent a fundamentally different and dangerous political project that the pro-Palestinian movement should not mistake for solidarity.
Drawing on Palestinian writer Tariq Baconi, Zimmerman makes a stark argument: that for too much of the Jewish establishment, "Palestinians are just the canvas upon which the Jewish psychodrama takes place."
UNAPOLOGETIC is hosted by Ashfaaq Carim.
Chapters
00:00 Intro
02:04 Israelism Goes Global
12:26 Growing Up Zionist
17:00 The Flag
27:35 The Liberal Zionism Trap
38:32 Exiled From Your Community
49:18 Young Jews Radicalised
1:06:36 Tucker Is Not an Ally
1:19:35 Democrats and Palestine
1:26:29 On Palestinian Resistance
1:32:24 Fusing Zionism With Judaism
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Chapters
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Chapter 1: Intro
0:00The last two years have been an unmasking and a shattering.
0:044 secondsHow do you perceive and see and think about Palestinian resistance?
0:1010 secondsBut if you're not actually willing to support anything that could like make those ideas a reality, then you're just posturing or um whitewashing your own
0:1818 secondsimage, you know, or or shooting and crying as they say. For the even younger Jews who who mostly get their information on social media, I mean
0:2626 secondsimmediately like this live stream of the genocide begins and for them that is profoundly radicalizing. I was part of a group of people that was protesting at
0:3434 secondsthe White House like within a week saying do not let a genocide unfold in Gaza. I mean we heard the things that Israeli government officials were
0:4141 secondssaying. We heard that evacue evacuation warning for over a million people. So when you see that, but yet you know that
0:4848 secondsTucker has sort of anti-immigrant, xenophobic, white supremacist, and what many people feel is anti-Semitic vibes as well. How do you feel?
0:5858 secondsThe anti-Israel uh movement within MAGA, these people are not my allies. Tucker
1:051 minute, 5 secondsCarlson, Candace Owens are these kind of right-wing media figures are are part of
1:121 minute, 12 secondssome of the most nefarious forces within American society. What's been the ideological change or movement or discussions been like?
1:201 minute, 20 secondsThe crisis is that a massive every major institution of our community just participated in a
1:281 minute, 28 secondsgenocide that has made a a place of where two million people called home that has basically erased it from Earth.
1:361 minute, 36 secondsWell, I'm I'm jetlagged, so I'm I'm also How's that working out? The jet lag? Like, how bad is it?
1:411 minute, 41 secondsUm, last night was hard. Oh, is this why you thought about the coffee?
1:451 minute, 45 secondsYeah. Yeah, cuz I've already had a coffee this morning. Don't just put it to the side.
1:511 minute, 51 secondsNo, no, it's great. You're going to get me talking like it's fine.
1:541 minute, 54 secondsOkay, fine. I'm clapping. 3 2 1. Hi, good day. Welcome to another episode of Unapologetic. I'm your host Kurim and
2:012 minutes, 1 secondI'm very glad to have in studio with me today Simone Zimmerman. Simone, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.
Chapter 2: Israelism Goes Global
2:072 minutes, 7 secondsSimone is really glad I'm really glad to have you here. Um we met a few weeks ago in DHA and was supposed to do our interview then but uh both Simone and I
2:162 minutes, 16 secondsthe Dha forum is quite overwhelming and we couldn't get it done there. Simone, if you're not familiar with her, and I'm sure you are, um the story, the movie is
2:242 minutes, 24 secondsrealism kind of in one in it does many things, but one of the things it does, it tracks her life. Specifically, it
2:302 minutes, 30 secondstracks her journey um from being someone who as a Jew and an American and someone
2:392 minutes, 39 secondswho has family in Israel, was very close to Israel, and then she kind of becomes disoriented with Israel and what it
2:462 minutes, 46 secondsdoes. Um, Simone, the movie was released in 2023. Um, this is before October 7th.
2:532 minutes, 53 secondsUm, and since then there's been a genocide unfolding. Um, so in many ways, I know that you were known uh before 2023, but obviously the movie raises
3:023 minutes, 2 secondsyour profile and then due to the genocide, you are then cast into a limelight where you are speaking about Israel's actions and trying to give
3:103 minutes, 10 secondscontext to many things. Um, like many of us that have been looking at the genocide, it's also quite it probably been really overwhelming like what's
3:183 minutes, 18 secondsoccurred, the extent of what's occurred, um, and the extent of how it's probably just impacted our lives and impacted how we think about the world. Very broad
3:263 minutes, 26 secondsquestion to begin with, but what has the last two years taught you about anything about yourself, about the
3:343 minutes, 34 secondsworld? And you don't have to answer the whole thing now because we're probably going to spend the next two hours discussing that. But just just right off the top of your head, what's it taught you?
3:443 minutes, 44 secondsOh man, I knew we were going to talk about this and still you're asking me and I'm like totally overwhelmed to answer this question. Um, well, it's
3:533 minutes, 53 secondsreally good to be here. Uh you know I think what the last two years
4:034 minutes, 3 secondsthe last two years have been an unmasking and a shattering those like for me there's something that's been
4:104 minutes, 10 secondsreally honest about the last two years and really heartbreaking and heart opening about it. I mean you mentioned that Israelism
4:194 minutes, 19 secondscame out well before October 7th. I think what's relevant about that is that
4:274 minutes, 27 secondsthere there was a context there has been an ongoing situation of ongoing occupation apartheid siege uh in the
4:364 minutes, 36 secondsland between the river and the sea a worsening condition on the ground and all of those things are what led to the
4:444 minutes, 44 secondsthe horrors of the last two years that we've seen and I think for me,
4:524 minutes, 52 secondsyou know, I mean, even still to this day, you know, there are people who say we can't talk about that context. And I
4:584 minutes, 58 secondsthink the reason Israelism ended up resonating so widely across the world is because when the genocide began, people
5:075 minutes, 7 secondswere looking to understand this. This couldn't have come out of nowhere. Where did this come from? And I think we the film was was one of many many resources
5:165 minutes, 16 secondsthat helped people make sense of like the gap between the narrative that they were hearing in kind of mainstream media or narratives that they were raised with
5:245 minutes, 24 secondsparticularly in in western countries and what they were actually seeing unfold live on social media.
5:305 minutes, 30 secondsOkay. Now, I mean, it's I've mentioned previously that it it's hard for us to actually process what's occurred in the last 2 years. And I think we'll be processing it for a long time. And I
5:395 minutes, 39 secondsthink mostly Palestinians in Gaza, but I think Palestinians in the diaspora, Palestinians in the West Bank, all of them would probably be processing it for a long time if they ever given the
5:475 minutes, 47 secondsluxury of given the time to actually process it. Um, naturally, how did you feel when the movie came out? I you don't yet know October 7th
5:565 minutes, 56 secondswas going to happen obviously but in terms of the chatter that was going to occur about the movie because obviously for a long while now you've
6:046 minutes, 4 secondsbeen a pro Palestinian anti-ionist anti-Israeli at least as how Israel is behaving at the moment um activist and that comes with a lot of you know skin
6:136 minutes, 13 secondsin the game there's a lot of criticism there's a lot of introspection that you probably have to do um about that you probably have to go through an intellectual journey consistently um but
6:226 minutes, 22 secondsjust in terms of you you had you had an expectancy of what this movie is probably going to do in terms of changing your life. It may not have been substantial but there was some
6:306 minutes, 30 secondsexpectancy and then there's this genocide which is a shattering and unmasking and just how did that sort of change what your expectations was?
6:396 minutes, 39 secondsTo be honest with you, I thought that this film was going to be doing uh like a synagogue tour basically.
6:476 minutes, 47 secondsI mean, I, you know, I've been I've been an activist for the last, I guess, like 15 years or so, trying to open up space
6:546 minutes, 54 secondsinside the American Jewish community for grappling with uh the reality on the ground in Israel, Palestine. And I thought that the film was going to be
7:037 minutes, 3 secondsbasically a tool that we could bring into into community spaces to help um to
7:117 minutes, 11 secondshelp younger Jews continue along the journey and also to help older Jews make sense of the political awakening that many of their
7:197 minutes, 19 secondskids were going through, right? And to kind of facilitate an inter community dialogue or intra I always forget intra community intra community dialogue. could also be
7:277 minutes, 27 secondsinter community like there's the Jewish community in America and the Jewish community in Israel and the one in Brooklyn and the one in Chicago etc.
7:337 minutes, 33 secondsExactly. So well what ended up happening is that I think the film actually ended up being a tool much more for intercom
7:397 minutes, 39 secondscommunity dialogue. I mean it's been like I mean there are a lot of things that have been really beautiful and
7:487 minutes, 48 secondshumbling about my experience kind of moving around with the film over the last two years almost three years now.
7:567 minutes, 56 secondsum getting stopped by Jews literally on the street who say, "This is the only thing that helped me talk to my my
8:058 minutes, 5 secondsparent, a parent who comes up and says, "This is the thing that helped us have a conversation inside of our home." Um
8:128 minutes, 12 secondsthose things are just like so moving to me that it that it's actually been a tool for people to like make sense and have those conversations with the people
8:208 minutes, 20 secondsthat they love. And then also there's been I mean I've I've heard from people across the world. Um I heard from
8:288 minutes, 28 secondssomebody who's who's whose families uh who who recognized a
8:358 minutes, 35 secondsphoto of their family from the Nakba in the film and like saw the film and reached out to say how grateful they were that the film tells also the story
8:448 minutes, 44 secondsof what happened in 1948 to their family. So, it's really and and then of course like not Jewish or Palestinian, just people all over the world who are
8:538 minutes, 53 secondsum probably living in a place where they are being told that the genocide being waged in Gaza is being committed in the
9:009 minutesname of all Jewish people, that all Jews support the state of Israel. And then they're watching this film and finding out that there are actually thousands of
9:089 minutes, 8 secondsus around the world, hundreds of thousands of us who oppose the policies of the Israeli government, who are participating in the mass protest
9:169 minutes, 16 secondsmovements, who are standing up and criticizing our own communities. I mean that breaking of the conflation between all Jews in Israel and between
9:249 minutes, 24 secondsanti-ionism and anti-semitism I think has been a really uh essential contribution for giving people
9:329 minutes, 32 secondspermission to act against to to take action against Israeli government policies and not and feel uh protected
9:399 minutes, 39 secondsfrom that smear of anti-semitism that is being you know thrown so recklessly at people around the world and also knowing
9:479 minutes, 47 secondslike we are also acting in solidarity with many Jews who are also against all of this and first and foremost being in solidarity with Palestinians.
9:569 minutes, 56 secondsOkay. Now, I mean, in the course of the next sort of hour and a half, two hours, we're going to get into a lot. We're going to get into, you know, how anti-semitism is real. Um, and we've
10:0410 minutes, 4 secondsjust seen, you know, an awful attack in Australia. We're also going to talk about how it's weaponized. We're going to be speaking about the American landscape. Um, you know, the right and
10:1210 minutes, 12 secondsthe left and the Democrats and the Republicans and MAGA. Um, and obviously we're going to be speaking about Gaza and and what it I mean your identity,
10:1910 minutes, 19 secondsyour journey. Um, and I think we're going to be speaking about resistance um, and allyship because I think there's they're similar and there's a
10:2610 minutes, 26 secondsdifference. And I think we want to hopefully have a more, you know, in-depth discussion that goes beyond
10:3310 minutes, 33 secondssort of the normal, you know, dialogue between people who think about themselves as pro
10:4010 minutes, 40 secondsPalestinian and Jews specifically who are also pro Palestinian actually get into, you know, some of the more the more complex uh discussions. I I'm not
10:4810 minutes, 48 secondssure if if if we if we will actually reach that. That's a that's an aspiration, but I mean let that's what we hope to aspire for. So I mean the movie I mean people who are seeing this
10:5610 minutes, 56 secondsmay may be familiar with the movie. They may have seen the movie. They may have seen it and forgot or they may not have seen the movie but it it kind of it traces many things but it does trace
11:0311 minutes, 3 secondsyour journey a little bit like when I say a little bit because obviously that journey is much more substantial than just what the movie shows. Um, so if you
11:1211 minutes, 12 secondscan just give us a bit of insight into that because I what when I saw the movie which was just literally a few days ago
11:1811 minutes, 18 secondsum I was like waiting for like so when does the story start with Simone like cuz you're obviously right in the beginning but then it's like sort of the second half is really about your
11:2711 minutes, 27 secondsunmasking to some extent. Um, and there's this moment in UC Berkeley where you are and we there's footage of it in
11:3611 minutes, 36 secondsthe movie where you are clearly, you know, confused and you you you're saying these Israeli sound bites, talking points that were given to you and for
11:4311 minutes, 43 secondsyou that was like the opening like why why am I giving these talking points which make no sense and what the movie says and you know is that this when you
11:5111 minutes, 51 secondsheard the the Palestinians and and their case it became clear to you that like the answers that you have been given are not and that almost like sparks it like
12:0012 minutescatalyzes this this journey right tell us about tell me about that moment but then also what's the journey like afterwards because I think anyone who
12:1012 minutes, 10 secondslearns anything about themsel it's it's it's a long process and it's something we're still sort of undergoing so yeah
12:1812 minutes, 18 secondswell so I grew up in a community in which Israel and Judaism were inseparable the story that I learned
Chapter 3: Growing Up Zionist
12:2612 minutes, 26 secondsabout like who I am and my place in the world was very much shaped by the legacy of the Holocaust. Um, the fact that one
12:3412 minutes, 34 secondsof my grandparents escaped Warsaw, Poland in the 30s, moved to pre-state Palestine, uh, was there in 1948. The
12:4312 minutes, 43 secondsfounding of the Jewish state is, you know, what what quite literally saved his life and the life of many of his
12:4912 minutes, 49 secondsfamily members. And it also inspired the rest of his life. I mean, Zionism was a very deep commitment for
12:5712 minutes, 57 secondshim and as it was for for so much of my family and the community that I grew up in. And
13:0313 minutes, 3 secondsso, you know, there's I have a line in the film that for me like going to a the Apac conference was just like another one of the things that I did like going
13:1213 minutes, 12 secondsto synagogue, right? I mean, it was another place where I could just uh also like unite with other people from my community, my camp friends, my youth
13:2013 minutes, 20 secondsgroup friends. It's all part of this ecosystem.
13:2313 minutes, 23 secondsand and you're kind of always hearing that uh when you go out into the world, when you go to college, people hate Israel
13:3113 minutes, 31 secondsout there and it's your job to go tell them the truth. So, what you're talking about in the film is the moment where I actually had to then confront this thing
13:3813 minutes, 38 secondsthat my whole life I'd been told I was going to do, uh, defend Israel from the people who hate it and to kind of
13:4413 minutes, 44 secondscorrect correct the lies. And um,
13:5213 minutes, 52 secondsyou know, that that scene that you're talking about in the film where I'm uh, you know, obviously it's like the thing that makes the film. It's also totally
14:0014 minuteshumiliating, but that's uh that's part of the the job. Uh you know, and I basically say the the the the case that
14:1014 minutes, 10 secondsI'm making is uh how can we make peace in the Middle East when we we can't have peace on our own campus? Like I'm a human being. Please don't silence me.
14:1814 minutes, 18 secondsPlease don't ignore me. And and I'm actually not confused at the time. At the time, like I'm a true believer.
14:2314 minutes, 23 secondsThat's really deeply what I feel. I feel that if uh an anti-Israel bill passes the student government that I am going
14:3114 minutes, 31 secondsto be less safe in the world that I'm not going to be welcome on my campus that is a threat to like my existence and my community's safety. I mean it was
14:4014 minutes, 40 secondsso deeply ingrained in me. At the same time I was hearing all these things that Palestinian students were talking about
14:4814 minutes, 48 secondswar crimes, occupation. I mean, just the the daily reality of what it means to be
14:5414 minutes, 54 secondsa a Palestinian in Palestine. And these were just realities that were ju they were just
15:0215 minutes, 2 secondsnot not part of my they were not part of my reality. And initially I
15:1015 minutes, 10 secondsjust went trying to I was just trying to figure out like do we have better talking points to debunk the things that these people are saying cuz I mean
15:1715 minutes, 17 secondsobviously I mean and and again I'm coming in and I'm like I mean I can see that these these people are like I mean it's it
15:2515 minutes, 25 secondsas I'm saying this like the racism is there so I'm just like naming that you know I'm I'm like of course these people are human beings but I don't think that they're lying but I think there must be a rebuttal to what they're saying Right.
15:3615 minutes, 36 secondsAnd so I'm trying to find a better answer. Um, in the at the time, and this goes to so much of I think what is happening on a college campus right now.
15:4415 minutes, 44 secondsI also understood that in the meantime, while I couldn't figure out a better answer, the thing we had to do was shut down the debate. Right. Don't engage in
15:5215 minutes, 52 secondswhat they're actually saying. Just say, "I feel silenced. I feel marginalized.
15:5615 minutes, 56 secondsLet's end this conversation." So you mean from a from a perspective of defending the Jewish community or defending Yeah. And I think what what we're seeing, sorry maybe I'm jumping ahead,
16:0416 minutes, 4 secondsbut like I think I what I what we are seeing happening on on universities around the US and also around the world
16:1016 minutes, 10 secondsis that um is Israel's defenders don't actually want to engage in the conversation because they know the facts
16:1816 minutes, 18 secondsare so bad that the thing that they need to do is shut shut down the conversation before it can be had. And I think that is so much of what this um this kind of
16:2716 minutes, 27 secondsappeal to to fear and safety and inclusion what is actually underneath that. Okay. You're trying to avoid the conversation. Yeah. Yeah. So so what happens next?
16:3516 minutes, 35 secondsWhat happens? So you you confronted by that conversation and I mean like now this you obviously can't retell me 15 years of your life. Um but sort of what
16:4416 minutes, 44 secondsfor you are the key moments that follows that that gets you to the journey of the person who eventually you know like
16:5216 minutes, 52 secondsIsraelism comes out and to eventually who you are right now but what's that process because you know what happens that night? Do you go home and speak to your family? Do you meet with your friends? Like I
Chapter 4: The Flag
17:0017 minutesI mean I go home that night and I remember I like wrote a message to a friend like I feel like Israel just got pushed closer to the sea. I mean that's the that's the rhetoric we get told.
17:0817 minutes, 8 secondsThey want to push us into the sea. And then how did that start flipping?
17:1117 minutes, 11 secondswhen did like when did you like what was that information point that summer that summer I ended up um getting a fellowship to go study in
17:1917 minutes, 19 secondsJerusalem and I'm just like desperate for anybody who will talk to me. There were two moments that summer that really
17:2617 minutes, 26 secondsstuck with me. Um the first is that I wound up uh visiting the the Palestinian
17:3317 minutes, 33 secondsneighborhood of Sheh Dar and um and what year is this? This is like 2012, 2013.
17:4117 minutes, 41 secondsSummer 2010. Okay.
17:4317 minutes, 43 secondsUm, Peter Binart has just written an article in the New York Review of Books called The Failure of the American Jewish Establishment. He writes about
17:5117 minutes, 51 secondshow young Jews are being asked to choose between their Zionism and their liberalism. This blows my mind. I'm like, "Oh my god, I'm part of this bigger that that is what I kind of felt
18:0018 minuteslike it does seem like there's a tension here." And that's interesting that there's like there are other people around the country who are experiencing the same thing I'm experiencing. And he
18:0818 minutes, 8 secondsalso talks about there was a at the time she was like this this site of a solidarity movement. A lot of Israelis
18:1518 minutes, 15 secondsand Palestinians were kind of protesting there together against this um this attempt by the settler movement that was working with legal mechanisms within the
18:2418 minutes, 24 secondsstate to displace people from their homes. I mean this is a a crisis that's ongoing there. Um, but I I basically find myself there one night in front of
18:3218 minutes, 32 secondsthis home where uh a Palestinian family had been displaced by settlers who stole their home. And I I find myself on the
18:4018 minutes, 40 secondsstreet with this family as we watch armed settlers walking in and out of their house. The house is draped in Israeli flags. It's draped in settler
18:4918 minutes, 49 secondsslogans. And uh Nasser, who's the father of this family, points up to the flag and he says to me, "You see that flag?
18:5518 minutes, 55 secondsThat flag represents so much strength to me. That that flag to me, I feel like that flag could crush me in an instant.
19:0319 minutes, 3 secondsAnd in that moment, like the whole paradigm for me was flipped on its head.
19:0619 minutes, 6 secondsCuz for me, the Israeli flag did represent strength, but it also represented vulnerability because I was raised on this story of Jewish weakness
19:1519 minutes, 15 secondsand Jewish trauma. And the flag was something that represented kind of like my own protection and safety. And all of a sudden, here I am standing here with
19:2219 minutes, 22 secondsthis man who is being oppressed by that flag and who's who literally had his home stolen by people who are d now
19:3019 minutes, 30 secondsdraping his house in the flag. And I mean really like that's the moment my whole world was basically flipped upside
19:3819 minutes, 38 secondsdown. Uh I went and tried to get somebody to help me understand what I had just seen. Uh, I found I went to
19:4719 minutes, 47 secondsthis journalist who I thought would help me make sense and he just looks at me and shakes his
19:5419 minutes, 54 secondshead and said, "You know, I drive past that neighborhood every day on my way to work and I try not to look." Here I am, 18, 19.
20:0420 minutes, 4 secondsI'm 18. And no, I was 19. And
20:1120 minutes, 11 secondslike for me, I'm looking straight at this thing and the people in my life who I trust to help me make sense of it are
20:1920 minutes, 19 secondsactively looking away. I mean, for a young person who's like looking for answers, that was probably the most unsatisfying answer I could have
20:2720 minutes, 27 secondspossibly received. And it really pushed me and catalyzed kind of the journey that I've been on for the last 15 years because I I I began to understand very
20:3420 minutes, 34 secondsquickly as I was like looking for answers from people I trusted within my own community that they did not actually want to talk about the things that I was
20:4220 minutes, 42 secondssaying. And once I had seen them, I couldn't unsee them. and and that I mean I could tell you like a dozen versions of that story, right, of going to see
20:5120 minutes, 51 secondssome horror on the ground in Palestine and and just wanting someone to help me like rationalize it like tell me why
20:5920 minutes, 59 secondsthis makes sense or it's okay and like the thing is it doesn't make sense and it's not okay and they don't want to they can't justify it.
21:0721 minutes, 7 secondsSo I mean the any any journey of discovery right it involves like two points. The point is you you're trying to figure out looking for answers and
21:1421 minutes, 14 secondsand you know you you don't have to go into more examples. I mean we may end up going to more examples of when you sort of uncovered something and and your
21:2121 minutes, 21 secondsparadigm flipped further. But the other process you look for allies, right? You look like who like so I'm discovering this. I'm I'm so the journalist who kind
21:2921 minutes, 29 secondsof tells you look away is is like kind of an ally in that moment. They're like, I'm I'm on your side, but they're not like an ally yet because they're not going to join you in some sort of
21:3721 minutes, 37 secondsmovement or, you know, they're not close to you in a sense that maybe they become close to you, but they're not close to you in the sense that they are your family or your friends who now agree
21:4521 minutes, 45 secondswith you. They're like, you write this is a problem. Um, I agree with you or maybe you found people already, you know, were were further along sort of in the journey of discovery than you are.
21:5521 minutes, 55 secondsUm so what's the process of then finding allies and then eventually you you sort of start if not now which is a a movement a group an organization which
22:0422 minutes, 4 secondsis you know committed to anti-ionism um and and pushing for you know Palestinians to have more greater sort of human humanity and respect and dignity and so how do you find allies?
22:1522 minutes, 15 secondsWell, I don't know if this is what you were getting at, but I think for me what what just immediately came up when you said that is that like so part of the thing that's really hard to unlearn is
22:2422 minutes, 24 secondsthat one of the values that I was raised with was like the the value of Jewish
22:2922 minutes, 29 secondsunity, right? So, um I desperately want to to figure this out inside my own
22:3722 minutes, 37 secondscommunity. I don't want to have to air the dirty laundry. I don't want to have to Is that how you feel now or how you felt then?
22:4222 minutes, 42 secondsThat's how I felt then, right? I'm like, I I'm I'm devoted to my community. I'm seeing these things that are really
22:5022 minutes, 50 secondsdisturbing to me. And I mean, does does anybody else here like know about I mean, initially it was like so naive on
22:5822 minutes, 58 secondsmy part. I was just like, "Guys, do you know about this thing that's going on?" Like, you must not know because you know, we're good people. You're a good
23:0523 minutes, 5 secondsperson. I mean, maybe if maybe maybe if I let people know about this thing I'm seeing, then then we'll all want to take
23:1323 minutes, 13 secondsit on together. And so, um, initially it was like really really earnestly about just trying to open up
23:2023 minutes, 20 secondsthat conversation inside my own community. And that's um you know one of the the things that we used to say about or one of the things
23:2923 minutes, 29 secondsthat I saw about um a lot of the young people who got politicized as I did is that the place that it started was
23:3623 minutes, 36 secondsactually like about a search for dialogue. It's it's like intellectually curious young people who are just looking for a place
23:4623 minutes, 46 secondsto have a conversation and then you try to just have the conversation inside the community institutions and the conversation gets shut down, right? And
23:5323 minutes, 53 secondsthen that process of being how is it being shut down like in community institutions?
23:5923 minutes, 59 secondsUm so I'll I'll give you an example. So when I was a college so uh I I I go to
24:0624 minutes, 6 secondsShakar it's like heartbreaking to me. I meet this uh this group of activists who are part of this local solidarity movement and we invite them to come
24:1424 minutes, 14 secondsspeak at my hill at UC Berkeley and the Jewish student center right and um
24:2324 minutes, 23 secondsthis I mean he's like a good Israeli boy whatever like he comes to speak in my hill and right-wing students from the
24:3024 minutes, 30 secondspro-Israel group show up with cameras and they sit in the room and they just film us and they're like this is
24:3824 minutes, 38 secondssubversive speech that is happening in this building and we are going to record it. And then that summer they sent a
24:4524 minutes, 45 secondsreport to Hillel International, you know, alleging that we were bringing all this like anti-Israel speech into the building and that we should be kicked
24:5324 minutes, 53 secondsout and that if we weren't kicked out then the Hill should be punished for even having us there. And they wrote all these different hit pieces on us that um
25:0125 minutes, 1 secondthe the speaker had said something to the effect of like I love my city. I want Jerusalem uh to be a a symbol of um
25:1025 minutes, 10 secondsI don't remember the exact language he used, but he said something to the effect of like, I want Jerusalem to be a symbol of of coexistence and of peace and not a symbol of oppression and hate
25:1925 minutes, 19 secondsor something like that. And then the headline becomes, you know, J Street brings a speaker that says Jerusalem is a symbol of hate or whatever. Um guess
25:2825 minutes, 28 secondswhat? There is a lot of hate in Jerusalem and a lot of oppression, right? But again, they just like they reduce it and they take it out of context and and they sensationalize it.
25:3525 minutes, 35 secondsSo, a lot of things like that. And again, like I'm I'm I'm trying to just like have this conversation in my community and I'm
25:4325 minutes, 43 secondsgetting attacked in all these ways. And so, that was really um already quite radicalizing because it was like, wait, we can't work together at all. And then
25:5125 minutes, 51 secondsthe other thing that I think is an one of the final breaking points for me was my my senior year of college. So, actually my my whole college career was
26:0026 minuteskind of bookended by these divestment campaigns that happened on campus. And the my senior year there was um another
26:0926 minutes, 9 secondsdivestment bill put forth in the student government. And again, I'm like on a political journey here.
26:1726 minutes, 17 secondsAnd I think I've learned my lesson from the last time. And so what I try to do is say um instead of a divestment bill,
26:2526 minutes, 25 secondswhat if we put forth a a call to the student government to say that they support the two-state solution and like
26:3226 minutes, 32 secondswant to work towards an end to the occupation or whatever. And I tried to get the other kind of
26:4226 minutes, 42 secondspro-Israel groups within Hillel to sign on to that. And and basically the idea was like the way we can stop divestment
26:4926 minutes, 49 secondsis to show that the Jewish that the Jewish community I'm like putting quotes here because these are not things I agree with anymore, but to to show that
26:5826 minutes, 58 secondswe believe in in peace and in changing something and we don't think divestment is a strategy to do that, but we think that there are other strategies. Um, and
27:0727 minutes, 7 secondsI I was in a meeting with with the the leaders of the other student groups and they said, "We're not putting our name on something that says occupation. we're not putting our names on anything that
27:1627 minutes, 16 secondstarnishes Israel's image. And that was like one of those just very clarifying moments for me where I I realized that I
27:2427 minutes, 24 secondshad been um trying to maintain this like idea of unity. And actually what it
27:3227 minutes, 32 secondsmeant that I was doing was that I wasn't this is all a way of going to your question about allies. I should have been on the pro divevestment side,
Chapter 5: The Liberal Zionism Trap
27:3927 minutes, 39 secondsright? I should have been helping the the the students trying to pass the divestment bill. If if my goal is ending
27:4627 minutes, 46 secondsthe occupation and is achieving a a vision of of justice for for Palestinians and Israelis, like I should
27:5427 minutes, 54 secondsbe part of the the the movement that's actually trying to exert pressure to change something. And unfortunately, I was on the wrong side.
28:0428 minutes, 4 secondsAnd I ended up being part of this um attempt to styy it but using more liberal talking points than we' used before. And it was a really devastating
28:1228 minutes, 12 secondsexperience for me honestly to see that the stu students even use some of the talking points that we had written for them like students more to our right
28:2128 minutes, 21 secondswhile all still then like saying oh we support two states da da and I mean this was all part of the process for me of
28:2828 minutes, 28 secondslike what I would call the the end of my liberal zionism and the end of these illusions that um and realizing how much
28:3628 minutes, 36 secondsthis all this rhetoric about the two-state solution and the peace process was actually a mask that that allowed people to say they were doing something while not actually doing anything and
28:4528 minutes, 45 secondsand getting in the way of of movements that actually could put pressure and and move us towards some kind of consequences and some kind of situation
28:5328 minutes, 53 secondsthat could help shift the situation on the ground.
28:5528 minutes, 55 secondsYou said sort of the end of your liberal Zionism, right? And and um that's where my brain was going as well. Um like I think like the fifth to sixth interview
29:0329 minutes, 3 secondsI did was with uh Ilan Pap and he talked about how this genocide um is going to definitely it's the end of liberal Zionism because you realize that you
29:1229 minutes, 12 secondsknow you can't be a nice guy or a nice woman or a nice person and be like okay we're just going to commit genocide occupy. You can't be a nice occupier.
29:2029 minutes, 20 secondsThere's no way to be a nice occupier. Um I guess many people go through something similar to what you've mentioned but
29:2729 minutes, 27 secondsthen they do get stuck in liberal Zionism and I can understand why. It's because it's very difficult to for any human being to sort of saying I'm
29:3429 minutes, 34 secondsactually going to start actively resisting my childhood, resisting my upbringing, resisting you know my community and stand against that. I mean
29:4229 minutes, 42 secondsthat that's just a difficult thing for any human in any society at any time to do. you you did make that leap and you said okay I need to be on the on the on
29:4929 minutes, 49 secondsthe divestment side what's that journey like like how do you actually go and do that and then what has it been like since and then we'll start talking about
29:5729 minutes, 57 secondsthe present maybe well I mean again like as you kind of said
30:0530 minutes, 5 secondsthis isn't it's like an ongoing process right um one moment like one moment that comes to
30:1230 minutes, 12 secondsmind for me is um I would say both the summer of for 2014 and the summer of 2020 2021 because both
30:2030 minutes, 20 secondsof those summers we saw um uprisings for racial justice in America and and uprisings on the ground in Israel
30:2830 minutes, 28 secondsPalestine and um you know one of the things if we talk about liberal Zionism one of the kind of myths that I think um
30:3730 minutes, 37 secondsis like part of that that ideology or belief system is this idea that um if we just deal with the occupation
30:4630 minutes, 46 secondsthere's there's a good Israel and a bad Israel, right? And you can separate these things and we don't have to talk about the Nakba and we don't have to talk about 1948. Um, and
30:5630 minutes, 56 secondsfor me, I remember kind of um, like the Black Lives Matter movement and the way that they articulated an
31:0331 minutes, 3 secondsanalysis of the um, the kind of historical crimes that needed to be rectified in the US,
31:1131 minutes, 11 secondstalking about the foundations of white supremacy, the legacy of slavery and all that.
31:1631 minutes, 16 secondslistening to that movement and like really believing what those activists were saying and and you know reading and learning then forced me again to grapple
31:2431 minutes, 24 secondswith what will you know if I this it's the same it's not the same issues but it's like it's the same thought process and belief systems that if I'm thinking
31:3331 minutes, 33 secondsabout like the need to to grapple with historical justice and the kind of like
31:3831 minutes, 38 secondsum founding issues that continue to um like the the rot of injustice that that
31:4731 minutes, 47 secondspersists across decades. That's the same that's that's what this conversation about the Nakba is, right? And you can't um you can't separate these things. Um
31:5631 minutes, 56 secondsso that was like I mean I think in some ways like the Nakba and just like grappling with that the legacy of 1948
32:0432 minutes, 4 secondsis perhaps the hardest thing for for so many um liberal Zionists to kind of to face. when you start learning about the
32:1232 minutes, 12 secondsNagba and you have at the time those those discussions within your Jewish community about it and there's some people who are in denial about it.
32:2032 minutes, 20 secondsThere's people who are aware of it but kind of want to minimize it. There's others who may know more about it than you. Um what's that like?
32:2732 minutes, 27 secondsOkay. Can I flip this back on you for a second? Absolutely. So you grew up in South Africa, right? Yes, I did.
32:3232 minutes, 32 secondsSo what did you know about Israel growing up?
32:3832 minutes, 38 secondsOkay. So I grew up in South Africa but I I share the dual um privilege of being a South African and a Muslim. Um and so in
32:4732 minutes, 47 seconds1987 when I inif started uh the I mean my parents, my family uh people around me were speaking about you know the
32:5532 minutes, 55 secondsPalestinian child throwing a stone against an Israeli Macaba tank. At the time I just thought it was a tank. Um, and that kind of is seared into your
33:0333 minutes, 3 secondsbrain. And at the same time, stories of my mother being at the bus stop and being afraid of being chased by a bunch of white boys and being beaten up and my
33:1033 minutes, 10 secondsdad facing similar things just like randomly because they were defin by no means were my parents at at the, you know, at at the the sharpest edge of
33:1833 minutes, 18 secondswhat a party gave gave the people of South Africa. Um, but but I mean I grew up with racism all around me. It was
33:2533 minutes, 25 secondsvery ingrained. still ingrained in many parts of South Africa even though we are grappling with with coming to sort of a
33:3133 minutes, 31 secondsnew dispensation. Um so in my mind Israel was this I wouldn't use the word settler colony as like a seven-year-old
33:4033 minutes, 40 secondsbut it was just like South Africa. It was this place where there were Jews who had privileges and Palestinians don't.
33:4733 minutes, 47 secondsAnd I didn't understand that there was a difference at the time. There wasn't much of a difference between the West Bank and the G and the Gaza Strip that more that becomes more sort of enshrined
33:5533 minutes, 55 secondsin 2005. But I didn't know, you know, that there were two states and these were the borders, whatever. I just there's that country over there. I I always used to be told it's quite small.
34:0334 minutes, 3 secondsIt's like smaller than a national park we have in South Africa. That's what was described to me. Um and it was also like load in loaded religious terms. It's Jews versus Muslims. That was also
34:1234 minutes, 12 secondsthere. But I mean, in my own family, and I can't say it's the same for all Muslim families in South Africa, but it was much more about there's there's Israelis who have privileges like the white
34:2034 minutes, 20 secondspeople in South Africa used to have or have, and there's Palestinians who don't. And it's really hard. And uh and then as I got older, it was like I
34:2934 minutes, 29 secondsrealized there was stolen land in occupied land and all that kind of stuff. like I don't know about you know house demolitions and I don't know about
34:3734 minutes, 37 secondsbut the idea that that there was a privileged class of people over there and an unprivileged class but as we have in South Africa that's that's what I knew.
34:4534 minutes, 45 secondsOkay. So this is super interest I feel like you and I I could derail this whole interview of us just kind of going back and forth. There's no derailing because this is this is part of the
34:5334 minutes, 53 secondsNo, I just mean like I think that this um like so it's like the context that we
35:0035 minutesgrew up in shapes so much of like how we understand the world. So like for me what I knew about the second antifada is like the bus bombings, right?
35:0835 minutes, 8 secondsI can see that. Yes.
35:1035 minutes, 10 secondsuh you know I I was uh 10 when 9/11 happened and you know as you know uh
35:1735 minutes, 17 secondsIsraeli Prime Minister Netanyahu who was not prime minister at the time but he's he's like a very important person in the kind of like global war on terror
35:2635 minutes, 26 secondsdiscourse and so I grew up in the US like my kind of uh formation as a kid is in the US understanding that Israel and
35:3435 minutes, 34 secondsAmerica are both at war with terrorists and the terrorists want to kill me and people like me and and that's the kind
35:4235 minutes, 42 secondsof framework that that I'm growing up in. And um yeah, I mean I'm like literally and then
35:4935 minutes, 49 secondsand then like I would say there's like a second story within that which is like uh you know America had the civil rights movement.
35:5735 minutes, 57 secondsIt's like the it's it's the liberal American story which is like we had the civil rights movement in the US. uh there's like still this ongoing struggle
36:0636 minutes, 6 secondsfor civil rights but but mostly like we kind of dealt with the problems and you know Israel is is the only democracy in the Middle East and yeah they've got
36:1436 minutes, 14 secondssome minorities but minorities have rights kind of like in America and we don't really go into it so much. Um,
36:2136 minutes, 21 secondsso and then and then like on top of all that then you get told um there are these people out there who who hate us
36:3036 minutes, 30 secondsand and want to kill us and and they're going to use all these words and ideas that are are meant to kind of like undermine and delegitimize your
36:3836 minutes, 38 secondsexistence. So like I think probably before I even knew the word apartheid I I knew that there was like this
36:4536 minutes, 45 secondsallegation of a part I didn't even know what it meant. I I for me there was like this moment in college where I'm I'm in this dialogue group and there's this
36:5236 minutes, 52 secondsIsraeli anti-ionist grad student who's writing about the Nakba and I say to him you know when you use words like apartheid and ethnic cleansing like I feel under attack because those are
37:0037 minuteswords that are meant to delegitimize Israel and he's like can I like explain to you what those words mean and he I remember at the time I mean he was such
37:0837 minutes, 8 secondsa uh amazing teacher frankly and he very calmly explained to me that like ethnic cleansing is a factual description of
37:1637 minutes, 16 secondswhat happened in 194 1948 and like I I know that that sounds I mean it it's I was extremely ignorant but there's a
37:2537 minutes, 25 secondsit's not just like an ignorance that you can kind of just fill in with information. It's an ignorance that is kind of covered up by justifications and
37:3337 minutes, 33 secondsexplanations and you first have to peel those things away before you can even intake new information.
37:3937 minutes, 39 secondsNo, of course. Um, so what was like sort of so then finding now allies, finding people I guess in the Jewish community or maybe outside the Jewish community,
37:4837 minutes, 48 secondsbut now that on the same page as you, that like liberals are in is not an answer. We need we need to kind of be part of what you said was a divestment campaign or we need we need to be part
37:5537 minutes, 55 secondsof a movement that's dismantling what Israel is as an occupier, right? Um, did I I mean is that Sure.
38:0438 minutes, 4 secondsWhat's that like? What's that like the starting if not now getting you meeting familiar people want to make a make a movie called Israelism maybe we don't know what it's going to be called at the
38:1338 minutes, 13 secondstime but make what's what's the activism like once you be like I now see this as an important part of my mission um and
38:1938 minutes, 19 secondsmy life what what does that mean for you I guess there's like two separate things so like the first thing is you you do
38:2738 minutes, 27 secondsbecome kind of an exile in your own community because like once I mean for me 2014 was really about um
Chapter 6: Exiled From Your Community
38:3638 minutes, 36 secondsa realization that like there was no way to do this within Zionist Jewish institutions, right? And so if not now
38:4438 minutes, 44 secondsbegan by protesting outside of uh the offices of the Anti-Defamation League, holding a a morning a Jewish morning
38:5138 minutes, 51 secondsritual and and very clearly saying like this is our tradition. We're going to use the the ritual tools that we have within our own tradition to express our
38:5838 minutes, 58 secondsgrief and mourning, but we're not doing it inside these institutions anymore and we're going to make them reckon with us.
39:0339 minutes, 3 secondsI mean, have they reckoned? I don't there's a lot to say about that. Um, but then I think the second thing is and and
39:1139 minutes, 11 secondsthere's I mean, I guess I'll just say along with that, it's like a very painful process of being exiled from your community. It strains relationships. It means you just like
39:2139 minutes, 21 secondsI mean there's like a whole communal infrastructure. It means you're no longer welcome in if you are going to be public with your politics. And then the
39:2839 minutes, 28 secondsother thing that happens is you experience like the broader world that's out there, right? And that that part has
39:3539 minutes, 35 secondsbeen I mean for me like a deeply moving and transformative part because I think one of the um
39:4439 minutes, 44 secondsone of the ways that Zionism as an ideology really keeps people inside is by promoting this fear of the other. And
39:5339 minutes, 53 secondsso there's there's always this rhetoric of all these different types of like the community outside can't be trusted. You aren't safe. Other people don't know the
40:0240 minutes, 2 secondstruth. You know, if you're not if you're not with your people, you will be unsafe. And
40:1040 minutes, 10 secondsI I mean it sounds like maybe cheesy or simple to say that, but it has been like
40:1740 minutes, 17 secondstruly profound to like unlearn that and to I mean in New York I'm a board member
40:2540 minutes, 25 secondsof an organization called Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. It's an organization that for 40 years has been part of local justice struggles in the
40:3340 minutes, 33 secondscity. Actually, it was founded uh in the '9s when Nelson Mandela came to New York City and he was boycotted by the
40:4140 minutes, 41 secondsAmerican Jewish establishment and a a group of Jews in New York City said, "We actually want to welcome him." And and he was boycotted, of course, because of
40:4940 minutes, 49 secondshis support for Palestinian rights. And this group of Jews said, "Um, that's that's like so offensive to us. We support the movement to end a partid.
41:0041 minuteswe're going to we we're going to host an event to welcome him in New York City.
41:0441 minutes, 4 secondsAnd that was actually the founding of a group that ends up being part of all these different struggles in New York City for racial and economic justice is
41:1141 minutes, 11 secondsalso part of the group that helped just elect our new mayor Zan Mdani. And so there is
41:1841 minutes, 18 secondsand it's it's very much part of this like counter tradition of Jews who see themselves very much as part of like a broader movement for justice. And that
41:2741 minutes, 27 secondsis very dangerous to Zionism. And it's been um yeah, I'm just repeating myself at this point, but it's fine. Um so
41:3641 minutes, 36 secondsit sounds like a very very basic question, right? Because I mean it often is used as a you know if I was asking this to someone who's trying to prove they're not a white racist and be like
41:4441 minutes, 44 secondsdo you have any black friends? Right? So it's not one of those questions. But when you when do you start having substantial relationships with Palestinians who are now your allies
41:5241 minutes, 52 secondsbecause they're also obviously pushing for you know divestment um and sanctions against Israel. Um, and what is that journey like? And and I'm asking it
42:0042 minutesbecause obviously they they coming from it from a different place. And on the Palestinian side, there's there's different shades as well. There's there's people who sort of, you know, are fine with a two-state solution.
42:0942 minutes, 9 secondsThere's those who are find that very bad and one to one state solution. There's there's people who may have more radical ideas. Um there's a whole host of
42:1842 minutes, 18 secondsdifferent people who have usually very sound articulate reasons behind why they want to kind of push for the solution or
42:2442 minutes, 24 secondsor the vision of of Palestine, Israel or just Palestine or whatever it's going to be called that that land between the L and the sea, right? So when you start
42:3242 minutes, 32 secondsengaging Palestinians and I'm guessing you make really good relationships with them because in many in many instances they become in some instances your
42:4042 minutes, 40 secondsprimary allies and there's some members of the Jewish community who are still primary and maybe some who are neither Palestinian or Jewish. when you start engaging Palestinian ideas on this, what's that like for you?
42:5142 minutes, 51 secondsI mean, this this actually really directly connects to the previous question, which is just like again about this idea of kind of trust and
43:0043 minutesbelonging. Like there from the moment I began questioning and engaging, there have been Palestinians who have welcomed
43:0843 minutes, 8 secondsme, engaged with me, wanted to speak with me. I mean, you know, of course, the the rhetoric that I mean,
43:1643 minutes, 16 secondsanti-Palestinian racism is so rampant, particularly in the US, that most Palestinians I've actually met, both on
43:2343 minutes, 23 secondsthe ground and in the US, are so like um grateful and like just um like eager for
43:3143 minutes, 31 secondsthe opportunity to dis dispel those myths. And um again, contrary to the
43:3943 minutes, 39 secondsthe messages that are often propagated in my community that say things like, you know, to be welcomed uh in the pro Palestinian movement, you
43:4743 minutes, 47 secondshave to like disavow your whole family and community, blah blah blah. I've been able to have really deep, meaningful conversations with Palestinians about the journey that I've been on. um every
43:5643 minutes, 56 secondssingle like there I mean it's it's hard to give almost one specific story because like I mean my whole time
44:0444 minutes, 4 secondsspending like ever since I began this journey there have been Palestinians that I've met who have welcomed me into their homes in every city and every
44:1244 minutes, 12 secondsvillage like across historic Palestine that I've been able to visit and who have just been like eager to to show me
44:1944 minutes, 19 secondstheir reality and to and and grateful for the the truthtelling that we do in in our communities. Yes.
44:2544 minutes, 25 secondsOkay. So, in the the last two years, I'm guessing that that I'm guessing with lots of, you know, confidence in my
44:3244 minutes, 32 secondsguess that, you know, the movement of Jews who are now realizing what Israel is about and standing against it has grown. And because we're seeing this on our screens, we're seeing this, we see
44:4144 minutes, 41 secondsmore and more protests. We're also seeing a crackdown against that community, not just by their own community, but by, you know, security officials and officers and and and policemen. Um, what does that mean like?
44:5144 minutes, 51 secondsWhat has what has Jewish activism in the US specifically where you are based been like for you in the last 2 and a half years while your community is also
45:0045 minutesgrappling with you know the awful crimes of Israel?
45:0545 minutes, 5 secondsWell, I think what I I would just say and you know this goes back to like Israelism was was created many years
45:1245 minutes, 12 secondsbefore October 7th. It launched a year before October 7th. There's already been this battle underway, right? this this
45:1945 minutes, 19 secondskind of generational rebellion. Um there was a polling done in 2021 that said over 25% of young of American Jews
45:2845 minutes, 28 secondsbroadly believed that Israel was an aparttheid state and the number was much higher for Jews under the age of 30. So
45:3645 minutes, 36 secondsthis is like a a a massive shift that's already underway. Um that polling also showed that a similar number kind of
45:4345 minutes, 43 secondsunderstood uh Israel's oppression of Palestinians through the as as a comparable to America's oppression of of
45:5045 minutes, 50 secondsminorities. Um and so there that that was already happening
45:5845 minutes, 58 secondsand there was already this attempt to repress it. I would say after October 7th we had we saw kind of two parallel processes underway. I think there was
46:0646 minutes, 6 secondsone part of the community that retreated in a very significant way just like um the crimes of October 7th were so
46:1346 minutes, 13 secondsshocking and horrific. Um and they felt that they had to be in solidarity with Israelis and Israeli society as we know
46:2246 minutes, 22 secondsmoved radically to the right. And so anybody for whom um solidarity first and foremost with Israelis was their kind of
46:2946 minutes, 29 secondsprimary driver like moved way to the right along with them frankly. Um there
46:3646 minutes, 36 secondswas unfortunately there was this like movement that it was called the kind of the judicial uh over the judicial
46:4346 minutes, 43 secondsprotest movement that was kind of trying to stop the the right-wing government from trying to advance certain plans to to to change the laws that actually were
46:5146 minutes, 51 secondsabout deepening Israeli apartheid. But the protest movement didn't really talk about that. They just talked about the ways that they were going to trample on their rights. But um unfortunately we
47:0047 minuteshad you know many liberal rabbis in the US who had been really outspoken allies of that protest movement who said you know this Israeli government is the most
47:0747 minutes, 7 secondsextremist government in Israel's history. True. This Israeli government is authoritarian and is trying to trample on democracy. Also true. And
47:1547 minutes, 15 secondsthen after October 7th they fully like threw their lot in with the kind of
47:2247 minutes, 22 secondsbroader public that then trusted that government to kind of wage a so-called just war in Gaza. And so, um,
47:3147 minutes, 31 secondsthat's kind of where the Jewish mainstream went. And then on the other hand, there were those of us who were, I would say, paying attention to the
47:3847 minutes, 38 secondsworsening conditions on the ground, listening very directly to Palestinians and listen to what Palestinians had to say about what was going to happen after
47:4747 minutes, 47 secondsOctober 7th. I mean, anybody who um you know, if you're a person who's been following events on the ground, you know
47:5647 minutes, 56 secondsthat for every Israeli killed, there's going to be exponentially more Palestinians killed. That's like that is Israeli government policy. And so, I
48:0548 minutes, 5 secondsmean, it's it's a painful thing to admit, but the moment that I saw the October 7th numbers, before I could even like process that horror in and of itself, I was already doing the
48:1348 minutes, 13 secondsequations in my head of like that what does that mean for the decimation of Gaza that's to come? And I mean, and then I didn't have to imagine it because
48:2048 minutes, 20 secondsit began almost immediately, right? So yeah, for those of us I think who had already um like a foundation to kind of
48:2848 minutes, 28 secondsmake sense of some of that, we were we were immediately I mean I was part of a group of people that was protesting at
48:3648 minutes, 36 secondsthe White House like within a week saying do not let a genocide unfold in Gaza. I mean we heard the things that Israeli government officials were
48:4348 minutes, 43 secondssaying. We heard that evacue evacuation warning for over a million people. Uh we saw very clearly where this was going to
48:5048 minutes, 50 secondsgo. We believed the threats of Israeli leaders. Again, if we're talking about like what are the splits, like in this camp, they're saying, "Oh, these are
48:5748 minutes, 57 secondsjust angry men. That's just things they say, you know, and we're like, no, they mean it. We we know this is what they do and we know this is what they're going
49:0449 minutes, 4 secondsto do." Um and and then there's like I think the other thing is like for the even younger Jews
49:1249 minutes, 12 secondswho who mostly get their information on social media, I mean immediately like this live stream of the genocide begins and for them that is profoundly
Chapter 7: Young Jews Radicalised
49:2149 minutes, 21 secondsradicalizing. And then for for young people who are on college campuses, I mean you know there are all these campuses where the students tried to
49:2949 minutes, 29 secondsbring Israelism just thinking this is like harmless movie night. We want to we want to have a conversation. we want to learn. And then I mean
49:3749 minutes, 37 secondsJewish organizations from around the country were like organizing parents to send these mass emails to university administrations. Tens of thousands of emails to university administrators
49:4649 minutes, 46 secondsasking them to cancel Israelism screenings. And so then we have you have young students, Jewish students who are like once again as I was talking about
49:5349 minutes, 53 secondsbefore like we just want to host a movie night in dialogue and then they get caught in this like major censorship
50:0050 minutesscandal. And does that like freak them out? No. It actually galvanizes them to become more more What is this thing that they're not going to let me talk about?
50:0950 minutes, 9 secondsHow can it be that bad? And so then all of a sudden, you know, they're doing like watch parties in the hallways of their dorm rooms.
50:1650 minutes, 16 secondsThey're all like streaming it on their laptops. I mean, it ended up making the whole thing go much more viral. Yeah.
50:2050 minutes, 20 secondsNo, I mean I I I I we do want to start speaking about in a minute, not not right not yet about sort of um American
50:2650 minutes, 26 secondssociety and the Israeli uh and the Jewish community uh in America sort of
50:3350 minutes, 33 secondsyou know how how you feel about their resistance, their movement um the Democrats and the Republicans and MAGA
50:4050 minutes, 40 secondsand I mean we now living in a world where where Taka Coulson and Candace are articulate defenders of Palestinian
50:4850 minutes, 48 secondsrights and dignity but at the same time whole political views which are problematic um I would say more than problematic very problematic I mean um you know have
50:5650 minutes, 56 secondshave undertones of white supremacy anti-semitism as well so we'll get all of that but just first just to respond to reflect
51:0451 minutes, 4 secondsover over some of the things you said about you knowing the the Israeli sort of calculus um yeah no I mean the same I I I remember actually when when when
51:1251 minutes, 12 secondsOctober 7th happened I I saw I saw like the news in the morning and I was not in news anymore and so I had a project I was working on. And so I I assumed this
51:2151 minutes, 21 secondsis like 50 people who have been killed, which is really bad, but like it's 50 people. And then 4 hours later, I was with a friend and and she said, "Well,
51:2951 minutes, 29 secondsthe the death count now is like 500 plus and counting." And you know, within a day or two, we knew it was a,000, 1100.
51:3551 minutes, 35 secondsFirst they said, 1400. It came down to 1100, which immediately meant 100,000, right? Like in my mind, I was like, this is they're going to kill 100,000 people.
51:4351 minutes, 43 secondsEven then I thought that the remifications of this will be will be 10 years but they'll kill 100,000 people in 6 months.
51:5151 minutes, 51 secondsIn many ways we don't know the number.
51:5451 minutes, 54 secondsthe numbers at least I think it's 68,000 or close to 80,000 is the full count but I'm guessing it's it's a lot more people but the destruction of all the homes or
52:0352 minutes, 3 secondslike 90% of the homes all the hospitals not completely destroyed but bombed and many of them destroyed like in many ways
52:1052 minutes, 10 secondsit's it's actually gone beyond that calculus just what's your what's your reflection on that
52:1952 minutes, 19 secondsum I think what I would say is that the Israeli government, the the current look, I mean, Israel as a project is
52:2852 minutes, 28 secondsabout displacing as many Palestinians as possible, concentrating them on as little land as possible, right? And
52:3552 minutes, 35 secondssettling as as many Jews as possible on as much land as possible. And that has been the state project since 1948. I I mean, some would say before 1948.
52:4452 minutes, 44 secondsYeah. Certainly. I mean, but since the founding of the state, that has been the project. And in in in recent years,
52:5252 minutes, 52 secondswe've seen that project ramping up. I mean, like once again, if we're talking about, you know, uh our different
53:0053 minutesviewpoints, like while the Israeli protest movement is talking about the threats to their own democracy, 2023 was
53:0853 minutes, 8 secondsthe deadliest year for Palestinians in the West Bank before even October 7th.
53:1253 minutes, 12 secondsThat the Israeli military basically killed someone almost every single day.
53:1653 minutes, 16 secondsAnd um this Israeli government was never going
53:2453 minutes, 24 secondsto miss the opportunity to use October 7th to advance the vision that it already had of consolidating its control over as much land as possible and again
53:3353 minutes, 33 secondsremoving as many Palestinians from it as possible. So I think again like if you knew that that was the the goal and the
53:4053 minutes, 40 secondsmindset of this government, you had to take it seriously and take seriously. I mean, what it would do to exploit that
53:4753 minutes, 47 secondstragedy. I mean, it failed to prot like there's there's the whole conversation about security failure of October 7th, how how that even could have happened in
53:5553 minutes, 55 secondsthe first place, how they ignored all of the warnings and all the security intel that they had, how that was able to happen. Um, of course they're also still
54:0354 minutes, 3 secondsum like repressing any kind of like state inquiry into that information because obviously if the citizens knew what happened on that day, they would be even more outraged at their government.
54:1454 minutes, 14 secondsUm, but at the same time, they exploited the tragedy from the first moment, whipped up as much fear as possible, not
54:2254 minutes, 22 secondsjust in Israel, but in Jewish communities around the world. This is a trauma that happened to you. This is the Holocaust happening again, and these are Nazis, and we have to go fight them. I
54:3154 minutes, 31 secondsmean, these are the words that they use, right? Human animals and Nazis are like the two main um ideas that they're using. And um
54:4054 minutes, 40 secondsI I again it's it's like if you kind of understood that then you can understand what's happening. And still it has been
54:4854 minutes, 48 secondsat at levels of horror beyond what any of us could have imagined because no government in the world has been willing to stand up and do anything to stop it.
54:5854 minutes, 58 secondsThere has been absolutely no red line that the Israeli government can cross that that will mean anything for any any
55:0555 minutes, 5 secondsforeign government. I mean, the fact that they're all still sending them weapons, it's like it's just absolutely outrageous and it is such a I mean, it's such an indictment of our whole
55:1455 minutes, 14 secondsinternational system that like this has been able to happen for the last 2 years.
55:1755 minutes, 17 secondsYou speak about the Jewish community, right? um specifically the Jewish community on the left in the last two and a half years as they've been grappling with protest and movements and I guess their own response to this.
55:2855 minutes, 28 secondsWhat's their what's their journey been like? Um and what's your critiques if you have any of of that community?
55:3855 minutes, 38 secondsUm, well, I guess the first thing I'll just say is I think the Jewish left was in an interesting and complex position like
55:4755 minutes, 47 secondsimmediately after October 7th, of course, like again, um, being part of a community that actually is like directly connected to people who were impacted
55:5655 minutes, 56 secondsand and and and I I actually mean Israelis and Palestinians at this point, right? I mean, for those of us who come
56:0356 minutes, 3 secondsfrom Jewish communities that are connected to Israelis, I think there was a real desire that like we only mourn our own people, right? I can say for
56:1256 minutes, 12 secondsmyself already from October 8th, I knew Palestinians who were killed or Palestinians who had family members who were being killed. So for me, there was
56:2156 minutes, 21 secondsnever any way to kind of like draw that line of like who my people are. And again, that's when we go back to the things that like the community considers
56:2856 minutes, 28 secondsa betrayal, that's that's part of that story. Um, so initially like I mean I can say like
56:3656 minutes, 36 secondsif not now the organization I helped found like hosted vigils for people to just like come and grieve in public for the loss of life that was just so
56:4456 minutes, 44 secondsmassive and so immediate and and to and to to grieve that loss of life while also saying very unequivocally we are
56:5156 minutes, 51 secondsagainst our grief being weaponized to justify a genocide. That was always the messaging from the beginning. Um, as I also mentioned, there were these like
56:5956 minutes, 59 secondsmass mobilizations that we helped organize. If not now, Jewish Voice for Peace was the was and is the main organization that has organized the mass
57:0757 minutes, 7 secondsmobilizations and kind of the at this point like the most iconic protest visuals that you've seen that people across the world have seen um the the
57:1757 minutes, 17 secondsthe major arrest action in the Capitol building in Grand Central in New York.
57:2257 minutes, 22 secondsthere have been, you know, um, shutdowns of bridges and streets. I mean, it's just like everywhere. Um, so
57:3157 minutes, 31 secondsthat's been like one of the things that the Jewish left is doing, which is just like making as visible as possible that
57:3857 minutes, 38 secondsJews, the the massive number of Jews who do not consent to the genocide and who are standing arm-in- arm with Palestinians and with this broader um,
57:4657 minutes, 46 secondsyou could call it anti-war movement, ceasefire movement, whatever. um that was a multi-racial and multiffaith
57:5357 minutes, 53 secondsmovement against the genocide and and the Jewish presence there has always been very very visible and of unfortunately like because of again like
58:0158 minutes, 1 secondthe politics um of Holocaust memory in the west and the way that the kind of I mean the way that that Jews are invoked
58:0958 minutes, 9 secondsto justify support for Israel the the Jewish presence in that movement is very important and we again for better and for worse are our voices are are
58:1858 minutes, 18 secondslistened to by a lot of and valued more. Um, so but but then like honestly like the
58:2758 minutes, 27 secondsreason I'm kind of I don't know how to answer this question so well is because like when I just think about the movement that I've part of and like what people have been up to over the last two
58:3558 minutes, 35 secondsyears, it's like everything. It's um you know protecting freedom of speech at universities, Jewish professors who are
58:4358 minutes, 43 secondsuh organizing to kind of protect the space for critical inquiry at their university, protecting Palestinian students and other and and colleagues
58:5258 minutes, 52 secondsand all the people who have been who have faced this incredible repression and crackdown again in the name of fighting anti-semitism, right? Then you
58:5958 minutes, 59 secondshave in uh communities across the I mean and again then it goes from universities to elementary school. I mean, there has been the thing that's
59:0959 minutes, 9 secondsscary and amazing, I guess, about this moment is that like the the scary thing is that the repression of pro
59:1659 minutes, 16 secondsPalestinian speech and activism has basically permeated like almost every institution possible. And then the thing
59:2459 minutes, 24 secondsthat's I think beautiful and interesting in that is then you're seeing people who are who've been galvanized to become activists in every corner of their
59:3159 minutes, 31 secondscommunities, elementary schools, um community organizations. And then so there's like the pro the protection and the fighting back against the
59:4059 minutes, 40 secondsrepression. And then there's like divestment campaigns or boycott campaigns and there's ceasefire resolutions. There were municipal
59:4759 minutes, 47 secondsceasefire resolutions around the country. There have been um I mean there's honestly like so much it's like
59:5659 minutes, 56 secondshard to remember all the different things that have been happening. Um but and then of course there's like the the the
1:00:051 hour, 5 secondsintercomunal stuff which is like people trying to have those conversations with their families, with their rabbis, um with their communities, film screenings, learnings, people trying to make space
1:00:131 hour, 13 secondsto host speakers, uh uh fundraisers for for food aid and and fundraisers for Palestinian families. I mean, there's
1:00:211 hour, 21 secondsthere's like the crisis feels so all-encompassing at this point that it's like hard to to actually summarize it.
1:00:271 hour, 27 secondsOkay. What I want to kind of explore is actions versus ideas, right? So, so there's lots of actions and they all So, you're going to push me on the ideas.
1:00:351 hour, 35 secondsAbsolutely. Hopefully useful, right? But in terms of ideas, because people on the Jewish left, I'm assuming, already aware that Israel, you know, is
1:00:431 hour, 43 secondsthere's there's something about the Nakba in there. They may they may be more informed or more uninformed about it. They're aware that there's a partate. They may be more informed or
1:00:501 hour, 50 secondsmore, you know, firm in their belief that there's definitely a partate or they may be like there's some sort of some sort of a partate in there. um it's people who are probably just beyond
1:00:591 hour, 59 secondsliberal Zionism but maybe still have elements of liberal Zionism in there right but there has to have also been an ideological journey and I'm I'm sure it's different for different people um
1:01:071 hour, 1 minute, 7 secondsthere also I mean for example like like Miko Pallet for example who's almost pro- resistance not pro he's he's definitely pro- resistance right if you
1:01:151 hour, 1 minute, 15 secondshear him speak for example so there's what's been the ideological change or movement or discussions been
1:01:231 hour, 1 minute, 23 secondslike Um, I'm not trying to avoid your question.
1:01:281 hour, 1 minute, 28 secondsNo, maybe I'm trying to avoid it a little bit, but I I do think that um the immediacy of the crisis has been it
1:01:371 hour, 1 minute, 37 secondsit kind of transcends ideology in some ways. Like for what I've at least witnessed like in in the movements that
1:01:451 hour, 1 minute, 45 secondsI'm part of is that like it it really is a question of like do you want to stop the genocide right now or not? And if you want to stop the genocide, there's
1:01:531 hour, 1 minute, 53 secondskind of a certain set of um act actions and policy positions that
1:02:021 hour, 2 minutes, 2 secondsyou would support. So like for example, cutting stopping the transfer of of weapons to Israel, right? Um ending military aid. That's like the kind of
1:02:111 hour, 2 minutes, 11 secondsbasic dividing the support for um accountability at international institutions, the the ICJ case, the ICC.
1:02:181 hour, 2 minutes, 18 secondsSo if you support those things that like makes you part of the movement um against the genocide and for justice and
1:02:271 hour, 2 minutes, 27 secondsfreedom in that land and I and if you're not in favor of those kind of basic measures of accountability then
1:02:351 hour, 2 minutes, 35 secondsto me you're not in the movement because you can say whatever you want to say but if you're not actually and again that goes back to the story I told you about my university days is like I I
1:02:431 hour, 2 minutes, 43 secondsunderstood that like I could say whatever I wanted and that's that's all well and good but if you're actually willing to support anything that could like make those ideas a reality, then
1:02:521 hour, 2 minutes, 52 secondsyou're just posturing or um whitewashing your own image, you know, or or shooting
1:02:581 hour, 2 minutes, 58 secondsand crying as they say. Um so what I've experienced much more is like
1:03:071 hour, 3 minutes, 7 secondsit's not to say those ideological conversations aren't happening. They're really happening. But um I don't know really how to parse those for you.
1:03:141 hour, 3 minutes, 14 secondsNo, that's fine. I mean, I think I think there's so there's so you said anyone who is against the military transfer of stuff from the USA to and their aid, I
1:03:231 hour, 3 minutes, 23 secondsguess, to to Israel and those who would want international accountability and I can see why that's a very intelligent broad-based umbrella position to take.
1:03:321 hour, 3 minutes, 32 secondsUm, may I ask why the line and and not have to be not not for the broader movement. I think that makes sense because you want a broad-based broader
1:03:401 hour, 3 minutes, 40 secondsmovement, but why not anyone who believes in sanctions? Why why why wouldn't the line go further like like complete sanctions against Israel,
1:03:481 hour, 3 minutes, 48 secondsinternational sanctions as there was against South Africa? Um um
1:03:551 hour, 3 minutes, 55 secondsI I suppose I'm maybe speaking about this from like a very US- ccentric perspective cuz like um I think
1:04:031 hour, 4 minutes, 3 secondsNo, but but I mean even for the US it's like they completely sanctioned I mean I don't see this happening anytime soon.
1:04:081 hour, 4 minutes, 8 secondsThat's a so like I think I'm I am supportive of sanctions and I think a lot of people in the movement are supportive of sanctions.
1:04:151 hour, 4 minutes, 15 secondsYeah. But it's it's and and many of us are supportive, you know. Um I I I was part of this initiative. I signed this
1:04:241 hour, 4 minutes, 24 secondsletter that um was signed by Jewish like celebrities or whatever or Jewish community leaders from around the world that like says that sanctions have to be
1:04:321 hour, 4 minutes, 32 secondspart of this like global um call for accountability and consequences. So um yeah, I would say I would say that is
1:04:411 hour, 4 minutes, 41 secondspart part of it. I was being kind of No, no, of course. What's the conversations like between those who are all military sanctions and international
1:04:491 hour, 4 minutes, 49 secondsaccountability and those who are like you are like all sanctions across the board. Israel should be treated as a prior state until it changes its
1:04:571 hour, 4 minutes, 57 secondspolicies. Um because that must be very interesting conversations
1:05:041 hour, 5 minutes, 4 secondsagain like and I'm to me the like the conversations that I'm feel like I'm part of a little bit more or that feel a
1:05:121 hour, 5 minutes, 12 secondslittle bit more like politically urgent in the US is is the conversation between those who say don't boycott, don't
1:05:191 hour, 5 minutes, 19 secondssanction, engage with Israeli society um and those of us who say like change is not going to come from within. And
1:05:261 hour, 5 minutes, 26 secondsthat's um like I think in okay so that's that's how you see the divide. It's like people who who say who
1:05:351 hour, 5 minutes, 35 secondsare trying to lobby Israeli society or work with them or activists within it and I guess you're saying it's like those have given up on society and like
1:05:431 hour, 5 minutes, 43 secondssome change and you need to have pressure and no change.
1:05:471 hour, 5 minutes, 47 secondsYeah. I wouldn't necessarily say like giving up on the society entirely. I would say like understanding that the the the
1:05:551 hour, 5 minutes, 55 secondsmechanisms of ch there is not there's not a sizable enough constituency within that society that can actually make change within its own systems. um and
1:06:041 hour, 6 minutes, 4 secondsand the change is going to have to come from outside. And that's something that I think a lot of the Israeli activists that I see myself allied with, again,
1:06:121 hour, 6 minutes, 12 secondsthey're like 5% of the population, but um they would agree with that statement, right? Because I mean, we've seen that Israeli society by and large has not
1:06:211 hour, 6 minutes, 21 secondsjust supported but actively taken part in a genocide.
1:06:241 hour, 6 minutes, 24 secondsOkay. So, I mean, I think the next sort of place you want to get to in the conversation, and I'm just going to like it's almost like buzzwords, right? So it's Candace Owens, Tucker Carlson, Mum
1:06:321 hour, 6 minutes, 32 secondsDani, Donald Trump, Joe Biden, anti-semitism, right? All the guys. Sure. Yeah.
Chapter 8: Tucker Is Not an Ally
1:06:391 hour, 6 minutes, 39 secondsUm I mean I don't even know where to start with all of that. But I guess the place to start is how do you feel for example when you see
1:06:471 hour, 6 minutes, 47 secondsjust very recently just probably a few days after the D forum ended. Um I'm not sure if you saw all of it, but Tucker Carson go on like a 50-minute ramp rant.
1:06:561 hour, 6 minutes, 56 secondsI haven't watched it yet.
1:06:571 hour, 6 minutes, 57 secondsUm okay. But I mean in it in it he he visits he visits a Palestinian refugee center I wouldn't call like in in in DHA
1:07:051 hour, 7 minutes, 5 secondswhere he he shows kids who you know have have had severe injuries um and lost limbs. Um he speaks about the absolute
1:07:121 hour, 7 minutes, 12 secondsurgency for the USA to stop funding this um completely. Um and then he he then interviews arguably one of the most
1:07:211 hour, 7 minutes, 21 secondsfamous international lawyers right now in the world, Franchesca Albanese who's been one of the most articulate uh defenders of Palestinian rights and you
1:07:281 hour, 7 minutes, 28 secondsknow someone who is against Israel's legitimate actions. Um so when you see that but yet you know that Tucker has
1:07:361 hour, 7 minutes, 36 secondssort of anti-immigrant, xenophobic, white supremacist and what many people feel is anti-semitic vibes as well. How do you feel?
1:07:461 hour, 7 minutes, 46 secondsI feel a lot of things. I mean, first of all, I will just say that I don't begrudge Francesca for doing that interview because uh the sanctions
1:07:551 hour, 7 minutes, 55 secondsagainst her are absolutely reprehensible. And I think that she needs whatever like whatever
1:08:021 hour, 8 minutes, 2 secondsconstituency in the US can actually exert pressure to reverse those sanctions against her, which are unjust.
1:08:081 hour, 8 minutes, 8 secondsLike that that should happen. And so I understand why she felt the need to speak to that audience that might actually be able to like um help change that policy.
1:08:171 hour, 8 minutes, 17 secondsI I don't think she's just speaking to them to help change her personal. I think she's actually trying to convince them like she's actually speaking across the bridge. It's broader than just her own.
1:08:241 hour, 8 minutes, 24 secondsThat is true. And and I do think, look, I'll say that I think the um the divisions that are kind of happening
1:08:321 hour, 8 minutes, 32 secondswithin the right over Israel are interesting and fascinating and sometimes quite fun to watch when they're really fighting with
1:08:401 hour, 8 minutes, 40 secondseach other. Um the Jewish right has made their bed with anti-semites,
1:08:481 hour, 8 minutes, 48 secondsright? I mean they the Jewish right uh and and I I include in that I think there's like different um considerations
1:08:561 hour, 8 minutes, 56 secondshere for for the Israeli right and the American Jewish right but um by and large they made a decision that they're all they are going to ally with
1:09:071 hour, 9 minutes, 7 secondsforces around the world um who love Israel because it is a racist
1:09:161 hour, 9 minutes, 16 secondsauthoritarian repressive state um and that that means like you know on the global stage that's that's what the
1:09:241 hour, 9 minutes, 24 secondsalliance with with uh Modi and Orban and all these guys are about and in the US um that is also what the the alliance
1:09:321 hour, 9 minutes, 32 secondswith the MAGA movement has been about and it's pretty interesting to see like some of those things coming cracking apart.
1:09:411 hour, 9 minutes, 41 secondsThat said, for me, there's um absolutely like no question that the anti-Israel uh
1:09:511 hour, 9 minutes, 51 secondsmovement within MAGA, these people are not my allies. Um I I just I I haven't gone to watch the interview with Tucker,
1:09:581 hour, 9 minutes, 58 secondsbut I just noticed like the first link or at least one of the links that he had on the YouTube page was like a fundraiser for like some anti-abortion
1:10:071 hour, 10 minutes, 7 secondscompany. I mean, these Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens are these
1:10:141 hour, 10 minutes, 14 secondskind of right-wing media figures are are part of some of the most nefarious forces within American society that on
1:10:211 hour, 10 minutes, 21 secondsevery single level for me, like as a as a human being, as a as a woman, as a
1:10:291 hour, 10 minutes, 29 secondsprogressive person, like everything that they want to see happening in the world is is so like enimical to like what I
1:10:371 hour, 10 minutes, 37 secondswant to see happen in the world. And I like for me my for me my commitment to Palestinian freedom is about a
1:10:451 hour, 10 minutes, 45 secondsconsistent commitment to like human dignity and equality across the board.
1:10:491 hour, 10 minutes, 49 secondsIt's about like safety and liberation for for Palestinians, but also for me as a Jewish person. It's a part of a vision of a world of like justice and equality
1:10:571 hour, 10 minutes, 57 secondsthat I want to live in. I do not think that is what these people's uh and I I and I say anti-Israel because I
1:11:061 hour, 11 minutes, 6 secondsI don't actually think they are pro Palestinian. I don't think they are pro Palestinian human rights. I think they are anti-Israel because they think that
1:11:131 hour, 11 minutes, 13 secondsIsrael is this like basically like Jewish parasite on America. I mean I'm being really reductive here, but they
1:11:201 hour, 11 minutes, 20 secondsit's not about a just a genuine commitment to like human rights and equality for all people. And so I I I
1:11:291 hour, 11 minutes, 29 secondsagain like there's there's uh there's like good reasons for those those like debates and those those fractures to happen in that movement and that's good
1:11:371 hour, 11 minutes, 37 secondsand I would like to see that continue but I do not see those people as my allies.
1:11:411 hour, 11 minutes, 41 secondsOkay. Do you see, and I and I agree with a lot of what you said, um, but maybe you don't see them as your allies, but
1:11:481 hour, 11 minutes, 48 secondsdo you see the usefulness of that rhetoric in terms of how it potentially leads to a USA which doesn't fund Israel's war crimes?
1:11:581 hour, 11 minutes, 58 secondsYes.
1:11:591 hour, 11 minutes, 59 secondsUm, and so how do you strike that balance then?
1:12:041 hour, 12 minutes, 4 secondsAs I said, I'm like I I would like MAGA to continue eating itself alive over all of its divisions that I'm I am not here.
1:12:101 hour, 12 minutes, 10 secondsOkay. So, it's like continue this, but like when it comes when the time comes where we need to hold hands and walk together, then I'm going to you're going to need to change a bunch more views before I do that.
1:12:191 hour, 12 minutes, 19 secondsI don't really see I I mean I don't really see it as like holding hands and walking together. Like I think it is a a fact that
1:12:271 hour, 12 minutes, 27 secondsum look it across the board in the US right now we are seeing um and across the
1:12:361 hour, 12 minutes, 36 secondsworld of course like we've seen people radic like ma a massive sea change in public opinion against Israel right people around the world have watched the
1:12:441 hour, 12 minutes, 44 secondsgenocide they're horrified they do not want their countries and their governments funding this thing they are experiencing the repression in their own
1:12:511 hour, 12 minutes, 51 secondscountries they do not want to be they do not understand like why why they are being silenced right in
1:13:001 hour, 13 minutesthe name of protecting this foreign government. Now, what Candace Owens is offering to her listeners to explain the
1:13:081 hour, 13 minutes, 8 secondsthings that I just said is that there is this like um you know
1:13:151 hour, 13 minutes, 15 secondsnefarious pedophilic billionaire Jewish cabal that I mean insert other
1:13:221 hour, 13 minutes, 22 secondsconspiracy terms, right? that is trying to run that is like running our country behind the scenes and part of
1:13:291 hour, 13 minutes, 29 secondstheir project is Israel and the the vision again it's like um the understanding of like how the world
1:13:371 hour, 13 minutes, 37 secondsworks that she is offering to her listeners is completely detached from reality and it is dangerous and so I'm
1:13:461 hour, 13 minutes, 46 secondsnot I I do I like I I think that what like and again This goes back to this
1:13:541 hour, 13 minutes, 54 secondsconversation about like accountability in my own community is like I mean it it's it's genuinely crazym for me as a
1:14:021 hour, 14 minutes, 2 secondsJewish leftist as a person who says like my commitment to Palestinian freedom again is about my is about a world the
1:14:091 hour, 14 minutes, 9 secondsworld that I want to live in. I believe that a world in which Palestinians are safe and free is also a world in which Jewish people will be safer and better
1:14:171 hour, 14 minutes, 17 secondsoff. Like this isn't just rhetoric. This is like what I genuinely believe. And basically, I think part of the the
1:14:251 hour, 14 minutes, 25 secondsdanger that um that the Jewish establishment just simply appears not to see because
1:14:321 hour, 14 minutes, 32 secondsthey are so committed to protecting Israel and its genocide from consequences is that they are also
1:14:391 hour, 14 minutes, 39 secondsenabling these forces like that Candace Owens is able to say, "Look at this Jewish billionaire class that's trying to silence you and take away your
1:14:471 hour, 14 minutes, 47 secondsrights." and they are like basically like a affirming you know these these conspiracies that she's
1:14:551 hour, 14 minutes, 55 secondsputting forth like again that is bad for anti-semitism as it is also bad for like all these other
1:15:021 hour, 15 minutes, 2 secondsthings. So, I'm feel like I'm not being so articulous about this, but I um
1:15:111 hour, 15 minutes, 11 secondsI guess I'll just quote something that that was said uh on a on a podcast that Jewish Currents put out recently or just from some people that I trust, which is
1:15:191 hour, 15 minutes, 19 secondslike and and this go these are some of the conversations that are happening inside the Jewish community, inside the Jewish left is like
1:15:281 hour, 15 minutes, 28 secondsthe anti-ionism could mean I suppose like what Candace
1:15:351 hour, 15 minutes, 35 secondsand Tucker are putting forth, but what we are trying to put forth is an anti-ionism that at its core is about
1:15:421 hour, 15 minutes, 42 secondslike being against supremacy and for justice and dignity for all people. That is not what they are about. And so I
1:15:501 hour, 15 minutes, 50 secondsthink there's also this battle now about like what kind of
1:15:591 hour, 15 minutes, 59 secondswhat what this there there is I would say like in some ways like a battle about like what this what this movement for accountability for Israeli crimes
1:16:061 hour, 16 minutes, 6 secondscould look like. And again the more that there is repression against the left the more at this point it's also giving more power to the right.
1:16:151 hour, 16 minutes, 15 secondsOkay. Um, I mean, just one more push back on this before we start talking about the Democrats, right? Because I I I I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying. It's just it's just I
1:16:241 hour, 16 minutes, 24 secondsthink and this is why it's I'm pushing back because I think these are ideas we're all still grappling with, right?
1:16:281 hour, 16 minutes, 28 secondsBut earlier on you said the the sort of the the umbrella body is people agree that Israel should not be military aided
1:16:361 hour, 16 minutes, 36 secondsin arms and in other ways to destroy Palestinian life and want international accountability.
1:16:421 hour, 16 minutes, 42 secondsI disagree with many things with Candace and and Tucker, but I do think they fit into that umbrella body just based on those two things. I do think they want international accountability for Israeli
1:16:501 hour, 16 minutes, 50 secondsleadership and I do think they don't want us to support Israel and his crimes.
1:16:541 hour, 16 minutes, 54 secondsWell, so that's where we go I guess back to the question of ideology. Um,
1:17:011 hour, 17 minutes, 1 secondlike again I'll I'll quote my friend the Palestinian activist Fi Kuran who
1:17:081 hour, 17 minutes, 8 secondsrecently um like I heard him speak about the idea that like the movement that we are part of right now is against um that
1:17:181 hour, 17 minutes, 18 secondsthat that the ongoing Nakba, this destruction of Palestinian society and land and people is the animating policy
1:17:271 hour, 17 minutes, 27 secondsof of the Israeli government of the Israeli state project and what our movement has to be about is is against anybody who for whom those ideologies
1:17:341 hour, 17 minutes, 34 secondsand policies are kind of driving them, right? And again, I do not think that the the MAGA
1:17:441 hour, 17 minutes, 44 secondsanti-Israel movement is animated by a vision of being against racial supremacy. This is a racial supremacist movement. They are animated by many
1:17:531 hour, 17 minutes, 53 secondsother things. And again, like we could go into a lot. there. Part of what is kind of interesting about what's happening on the right is there's like there's the split about the Christian
1:18:011 hour, 18 minutes, 1 secondnationalists and the white nationalists and who sees, you know, Israel as like an essential outpost essential outpost for US imperialism versus like a Jewish
1:18:101 hour, 18 minutes, 10 secondsparasite that is occupying the US government and like, you know, taking all of our resources and controlling our politicians and whatever. But all of
1:18:191 hour, 18 minutes, 19 secondsthis is not again it's not about a question of you know international human
1:18:261 hour, 18 minutes, 26 secondsrights about systems of supremacy and racial domination. Uh it's not about justice and dignity for all people. It's
1:18:341 hour, 18 minutes, 34 secondsnot about historical justice. Like those are the questions that I think the movement that I am part of is animated by.
1:18:411 hour, 18 minutes, 41 secondsthose people do not are are not against,
1:18:481 hour, 18 minutes, 48 secondsyou know, like I mean again I I don't I don't claim to be an expert on like what they support and believe in, but it's like
1:18:551 hour, 18 minutes, 55 secondsfor me these these beliefs that I hold are comparable to my belief that we should have reparations for slavery in America.
1:19:031 hour, 19 minutes, 3 secondsLast I checked, that is not what is animating them. So, I think we're talking about like two completely separate things here. Again, when we're
1:19:121 hour, 19 minutes, 12 secondstalking about like a movement to end military age, sure, you end up having unlikely coalitions, but I do not see
1:19:181 hour, 19 minutes, 18 secondsthose people as like allies in the in the like ideological or political project that I'm part of.
1:19:251 hour, 19 minutes, 25 secondsOkay. Um, the Democrats, right? um as a community who is working as as as a
1:19:341 hour, 19 minutes, 34 secondsJewish community that's working against you know Zionism and and the Israel project where do you position yourself in terms of who you support in terms of
Chapter 9: Democrats and Palestine
1:19:421 hour, 19 minutes, 42 secondslike the these two big American parties it can't be the Republicans I'm assuming based on what we just said um even though the Republican party is not just
1:19:491 hour, 19 minutes, 49 secondsTucker Carlson and Ken so uh and you know and Biden is always says he's he's the biggest
1:19:561 hour, 19 minutes, 56 secondsscientist and He he sent Israel record number of of bombs to to carry out a
1:20:031 hour, 20 minutes, 3 secondsgenocide. So I mean this I guess this is a broader discussion that not just Jews are actually actually grappling with but
1:20:111 hour, 20 minutes, 11 secondshow do you see that how do you see that discussion happening and where do you think you need to kind of on the bigger American political landscape start
1:20:181 hour, 20 minutes, 18 secondsputting your support to or or what's your tactics in that in that regard?
1:20:231 hour, 20 minutes, 23 secondsWell, I mean, it's it's actually because of everything that we just discussed that like this crisis in the Democratic Party about Israel is so urgent because
1:20:301 hour, 20 minutes, 30 secondsit's like it's so obvious that the Democrats complete failure or it's not just failure. the like the Democratic
1:20:391 hour, 20 minutes, 39 secondsParty's active enabling of the Gaza genocide is what cost them is one of the things I think that cost them the
1:20:451 hour, 20 minutes, 45 secondselection and is lending a ton of fuel to this right-wing
1:20:521 hour, 20 minutes, 52 secondsanti-Israel movement and um I think again like if the dem and and
1:20:581 hour, 20 minutes, 58 secondsthat is I mean to like that's what the uncommitted movement was about right just saying like we we need a candidate that's actually like against the
1:21:061 hour, 21 minutes, 6 secondsgenocide and for conse and for cutting military aid and all that. Um and that's also I think what is like quite hopeful about the election of Zoran Madani in
1:21:141 hour, 21 minutes, 14 secondsNew York City, right? That you had um a candidate who is uh pro Palestinian because of again like and he is very
1:21:231 hour, 21 minutes, 23 secondsvery clear whenever he speaks about this that it is about his commitment to equality and justice for all people that he is against any state that would
1:21:301 hour, 21 minutes, 30 secondsdiscriminate on the basis of religion or race um anywhere in the world. And that is like very deeply connected to his
1:21:381 hour, 21 minutes, 38 secondsvision of like an affordable inclusive New York City and is what made people believe that he was actually somebody who could like stand up and fight for
1:21:461 hour, 21 minutes, 46 secondsthem and that they could trust to to to like back those ideas that he was saying.
1:21:521 hour, 21 minutes, 52 secondsWhy do you think Mumani was was able to to say those things so clearly and yet like AOC couldn't?
1:21:591 hour, 21 minutes, 59 secondsWell, it's really deep for him. Like I mean you you pro you probably know better than me coming from South Africa. I mean that's
1:22:071 hour, 22 minutes, 7 secondsI mean if no if you wanted me to retort to it I will but only after your your your your No, I I just think that it's like I think it's deep and authentic for him.
1:22:141 hour, 22 minutes, 14 secondsAnd I think what was really compelling for me to watch um about him is that
1:22:211 hour, 22 minutes, 21 secondslike so often you kind of see American politicians give these like you could just see that they're these boilerplate
1:22:281 hour, 22 minutes, 28 secondsrehearsed lines that some like lobbyist or consultant or whatever like told them to say and you can tell that this is a
1:22:371 hour, 22 minutes, 37 secondsguy who really knows his stuff. I mean obviously like he he grew up in a context again as as we discussed earlier
1:22:441 hour, 22 minutes, 44 secondsin which Palestinian freedom was like part of his understanding of the world and and his commitments and he was a student activist in college as we know
1:22:531 hour, 22 minutes, 53 secondsand so he can't kind of be just like thrown off by these qu like I mean American politics just has this like
1:23:001 hour, 23 minutesminefield of questions that are meant to derail and intimidate candidates and he's somebody who's just like ready like
1:23:091 hour, 23 minutes, 9 secondshe he can't he can't fall into those traps cuz he just know he just knows it all too well.
1:23:141 hour, 23 minutes, 14 secondsUm I mean but the thing is like so it's it's less that I mean I I agree with you on on Mdani but but why was AOC not able
1:23:221 hour, 23 minutes, 22 secondsto figure that out? Did you think she's just been in politics for too long and she become a boilerplate politician?
1:23:271 hour, 23 minutes, 27 secondslike because I I do I think do think there was a time where AOC spoke very articulately um about the equality of life and um the fact that we're all in
1:23:361 hour, 23 minutes, 36 secondssome universal struggle like I mean it's how did she get it wrong?
1:23:421 hour, 23 minutes, 42 secondsUm I don't want to get too deep into like what has gone on with her. I mean, I think like ultimately she still is one
1:23:511 hour, 23 minutes, 51 secondsof the uh elected officials in Congress who has been actually the most outspoken on on Palestinian freedom. I think what
1:23:591 hour, 23 minutes, 59 secondsI'm trying to say is that um first of all, we know that she started she was much less informed about these issues
1:24:051 hour, 24 minutes, 5 secondsand um has faced a ton of pressure from uh right-wing organizations that have have really sought to pressure her. And
1:24:131 hour, 24 minutes, 13 secondsI think I think because Zoron had much a much like deeper longer like commitment and
1:24:221 hour, 24 minutes, 22 secondsunderstanding of the issues, I think he's a little bit more resilient to some of those like kind of attempts to derail him. Um,
1:24:301 hour, 24 minutes, 30 secondsbut I think it's also a testament to like how much stronger our movement still needs to be. And I think it'll be
1:24:381 hour, 24 minutes, 38 secondsinteresting to see like with him as an ally if it enables her to like stand stronger, you know. I think I think I mean I think
1:24:461 hour, 24 minutes, 46 secondsit's I agree with you in all the identity sort of politics and the fact that he's informed and he's has a lot more familiarity with the issue and and
1:24:531 hour, 24 minutes, 53 secondslived experience etc. But I think I think what I'm like part of what I'm trying to say is like if you don't know kind of the det like the intricacies of
1:25:001 hour, 25 minuteshow these loaded questions are um like the the right to exist stuff, right? He he knows he knows that this is a trap
1:25:091 hour, 25 minutes, 9 secondsand so he knows how to answer it. And I mean and he actually did even still kind of fall into the trap for a while at the beginning. But like the fact that he can
1:25:171 hour, 25 minutes, 17 secondsjust very clearly be like I'm against any state that discriminates on the basis of race or religion. I like and and that's like he didn't have to like
1:25:261 hour, 25 minutes, 26 secondsrehearse that cuz he knows it. That's what he actually believes.
1:25:291 hour, 25 minutes, 29 secondsNo, but I also think because it was kind of like new and at some point I guess 5 months before he was he won the election
1:25:371 hour, 25 minutes, 37 secondshe he didn't even know he or six months he didn't even know he has stood any chance. So I guess he felt there was nothing to lose and when he did double down on Palestine it he saw it worked.
1:25:461 hour, 25 minutes, 46 secondsAnd so I'm not trying to say he was he was using that. I think he was very sincere in his in his support for Palestine and and that's why he he is so
1:25:521 hour, 25 minutes, 52 secondscoherent on it. Um but I I do think that that I don't know to me Palestine Israel isn't that complicated and I know that
1:26:001 hour, 26 minutesthat may sound different but I I I do have the history of of being a South African and having you know very small way experienced about it right but I I
1:26:091 hour, 26 minutes, 9 secondsmean I do think that AOC also may get it. She may not be as familiar but I just think I think the fact that she'd been in in in in Congress for that long
1:26:161 hour, 26 minutes, 16 secondsactually plays plays a role into it. Um Palestinian resistance
1:26:241 hour, 26 minutes, 24 secondsas a person who is a Jew and someone who obviously you still have a place in your
Chapter 10: On Palestinian Resistance
1:26:321 hour, 26 minutes, 32 secondsheart for a much more just Israel. Um, how do you perceive and see and think about Palestinian resistance?
1:26:431 hour, 26 minutes, 43 secondsUm, I'm not sure I would see say that I I still hold a vision of a just Israel in
1:26:511 hour, 26 minutes, 51 secondsmy heart. Okay, that's that's that's good.
1:26:531 hour, 26 minutes, 53 secondsBut that's not really what you asked. I Look, I mean, it kind of is, but we'll get to that later.
1:27:001 hour, 27 minutesLook, the the violence that Israel commits against Palestinians every day for decades is
1:27:091 hour, 27 minutes, 9 secondsa a violence that creates violence. And that that like that in some ways is kind of like the beginning and the end for me
1:27:161 hour, 27 minutes, 16 secondsof it. But I mean I I could just say that like um I spent a year working at an Israeli human
1:27:251 hour, 27 minutes, 25 secondsrights organization called Kisha that does legal aid work to help uh well before October 7th was like helping
1:27:321 hour, 27 minutes, 32 secondsPalestinians in Gaza navigate the permit regime that the the organization's commitments about freedom to movement.
1:27:381 hour, 27 minutes, 38 secondsAnd I just saw like every single day stories of families who
1:27:491 hour, 27 minutes, 49 secondsmissed the wedding of a a sister or a child and missed being able to be by
1:27:571 hour, 27 minutes, 57 secondstheir parent with their parents on their dying bed because one of them lived in Gaza and the other one lived in the West Bank or in Yafa. And that like this is a
1:28:051 hour, 28 minutes, 5 secondscommunity that again just because of who they are like the state the state's
1:28:121 hour, 28 minutes, 12 secondsmission is to keep them apart is to keep them fragmented is to destroy their society and to deny them these like basic aspects of human existence that
1:28:201 hour, 28 minutes, 20 secondsare so essential to like what does it mean to be a human and to have a family and a community and Israeli pol Israeli aparttheid is an attack on all of that
1:28:291 hour, 28 minutes, 29 secondsand um you know again like the March of Return in 2018, we saw people nonviolently marching by the fence and
1:28:381 hour, 28 minutes, 38 secondsIsraeli soldiers like shot them down like they were just playing a video game. Um, and
1:28:471 hour, 28 minutes, 47 secondsI'm not like this is not like about endorsement or justifying. It's about
1:28:531 hour, 28 minutes, 53 secondstrying to understand this kind of um intense grinding oppression and denial of freedom.
1:29:021 hour, 29 minutes, 2 secondsIt is understandable why people have made the decision to choose violence in response to that.
1:29:081 hour, 29 minutes, 8 secondsUm, no I mean I I I South Africa I mean Mandela has is known as the great peacemaker but he was also
1:29:151 hour, 29 minutes, 15 secondsthe probably the politician most responsible in the 1950s to get the the ANC to adopt guns and take on guns.
1:29:231 hour, 29 minutes, 23 secondsThere's a big difference between the ANC's, not always, but their general resistance policy in Hamas, for instance. The ANC didn't always carry
1:29:311 hour, 29 minutes, 31 secondsthis out, but there was a stated policy of not killing civilians, whereas Hamas has not done that since the second Friday or possibly before that. Um,
1:29:401 hour, 29 minutes, 40 secondsin terms of of armed resistance, which is violent by nature of having arms, but not against civilians. Um, I'm not asking for like do you endorse or not
1:29:491 hour, 29 minutes, 49 secondsendorse, but I mean I am against violence against civilians.
1:29:521 hour, 29 minutes, 52 secondsObviously, it would be dishonest to like look at this situation and not try to understand what are these conditions that have produced all of this violence. That's it.
1:30:011 hour, 30 minutes, 1 secondOkay. Earlier on, I incorrectly said that you you may still hold a place in your heart for just Israel and you said you may not. How do you see what do you
1:30:101 hour, 30 minutes, 10 secondsthink is a is a is a possible just solution? How do you I mean we don't know how where it will go but if you could if you were given the power of
1:30:181 hour, 30 minutes, 18 secondsSykes San Pico or the entire UN or the US government or Benjamin Netanyahu how would you resolve this this this problem?
1:30:281 hour, 30 minutes, 28 secondsLike again this isn't really my personal opinion. It's like I this is the opinion of like many of the policy experts and
1:30:391 hour, 30 minutes, 39 secondspolitical leaders that I trust and Palestinians and like international experts. Um what we have on the ground
1:30:461 hour, 30 minutes, 46 secondsright now is an unjust unequal one-state reality. I'm in favor of an equal one-state reality. That's like a personal opinion. Um, I have seen the
1:30:561 hour, 30 minutes, 56 secondsway that the two-state solution, the kind of like guise of the Oslo process.
1:31:011 hour, 31 minutes, 1 secondI think one of the enduring myths in American politics certainly, but perhaps in most Western countries is this idea
1:31:081 hour, 31 minutes, 8 secondsthat there is this like just two-state solution that could be just around the corner. And it basically is again like the cover for governments to do absolutely nothing.
1:31:181 hour, 31 minutes, 18 secondsum they say they hope there will be a two-state solution one day while Israel continues to um quite explicitly and
1:31:251 hour, 31 minutes, 25 secondsintentionally undermine any last prospect for the two-state solution. So recently they started building an E1 which was this
1:31:321 hour, 31 minutes, 32 secondslike you know for decades was like if they build an E1 it would be the death of the two-state solution but here we go like nobody's declaring that the
1:31:401 hour, 31 minutes, 40 secondstwo-state solution is dead. So, um I'm I'm of the personal opinion that it's it's long dead and that the easier the
1:31:491 hour, 31 minutes, 49 secondsif there is any chance of like a just future in that land, it will be through giving equal rights and citizenship to
1:31:571 hour, 31 minutes, 57 secondsall people and um engaging in some kind of process of like accountability in international institutions, accountability for the genocide and for
1:32:051 hour, 32 minutes, 5 secondsall the other crimes and and processes of like reparations and restitutions for Palestinians for the decades of um crimes that have been committed against them.
1:32:141 hour, 32 minutes, 14 secondsOkay. Um you may be aware of Yuval Noah Harari, famous author, historian. Uh he recently said that Judaism has had the
1:32:231 hour, 32 minutes, 23 secondsbiggest crisis it's faced since the since the sacing of the temple 2,500 years ago by the Babylonians has been this genocide. What's your reflections on that?
Chapter 11: Fusing Zionism With Judaism
1:32:321 hour, 32 minutes, 32 secondsYeah, I agree with them, but we we draw very different conclusions from it. I mean, look, I think that um the founding of the state of Israel obviously was
1:32:411 hour, 32 minutes, 41 secondslike uh a radical transformation of Jewish history. I think the decision that has been made over many decades to
1:32:491 hour, 32 minutes, 49 secondskind of try to fuse the project of Zionism with the project of of Judaism around the world uh has been a catastrophe. And I'm of the political
1:32:591 hour, 32 minutes, 59 secondscamp that is trying to disentangle Judaism from Zionism. so that um Jewish people can be safe wherever we live
1:33:081 hour, 33 minutes, 8 secondsaround the world. We can be part of movements for justice wherever we live around the world and also uh so that we can have
1:33:151 hour, 33 minutes, 15 secondssome prospect for a just future uh in Palestine, Israel.
1:33:201 hour, 33 minutes, 20 secondsNo, I mean I I actually agreed with what he said, but I disagreed with the date. I thought like, dude, that was 1948.
1:33:271 hour, 33 minutes, 27 secondsYeah, I don't I don't remember the I mean it's it's more or less what it's more or less what you're saying because I think he's saying like you all don't
1:33:351 hour, 33 minutes, 35 secondsknow how I said a few things especially post October 7th which were very unnerving um and and quite frankly apologetic to genocide. Um but I think
1:33:431 hour, 33 minutes, 43 secondswhen he's saying it when he says what he says then he's kind of saying that we have this marriage between Zionism and and Judaism and it's it's a crisis of Judaism but it happened in 1948.
1:33:531 hour, 33 minutes, 53 secondsYeah. But the problem is is like the thing that he's offering and I think a lot of the people who are listening to him is like we're still trying to um
1:34:011 hour, 34 minutes, 1 secondthey're trying to revive Israel. So and they're trying to basically say like I mean I'm not so familiar with like his position specifically but I've seen some
1:34:091 hour, 34 minutes, 9 secondsof the discourse around this and so I'll just speak to that which is like I think there is this um
1:34:171 hour, 34 minutes, 17 secondsgroup of people who basically want to say like they don't call it a genocide. They say there's this war, the war went
1:34:241 hour, 34 minutes, 24 secondscatastrophically off course. Um, some bad things happened, but you know, those are things that countries around the world have done. So, like don't
1:34:321 hour, 34 minutes, 32 secondsworry, Israel is just doing what countries do. Um, which is a pretty interesting uh turn of like how to kind of justify all that. And again, they're
1:34:401 hour, 34 minutes, 40 secondsstill saying like we have to invest in the good Israel. So that the the people who took us off course are this radical right. It's not the whole state. It's
1:34:481 hour, 34 minutes, 48 secondsnot, you know, um it's this kind of like bad stream that is taking the state off course and and
1:34:551 hour, 34 minutes, 55 secondswe the the good Israel, the good Jewish community have to kind of save this. And I I just don't subscribe to that. And I I mean I've also seen the way that like
1:35:041 hour, 35 minutes, 4 secondsthat across the spectrum like you can't really make a political divide in terms of like sure there are this there is the
1:35:121 hour, 35 minutes, 12 secondssettler movement in the West Bank that is committing puggrams and is ethnically cleansing Palestinian communities there but that movement is in deep partnership
1:35:201 hour, 35 minutes, 20 secondswith the government and it is it is a state project that is committing that.
1:35:241 hour, 35 minutes, 24 secondsIt's the same state that is committing the genocide in Gaza. The army of that state has people across the political persuasion who are all participating in
1:35:321 hour, 35 minutes, 32 secondsthat army. And then you have a citizenry that is also again lending active support um to that project. And and and
1:35:401 hour, 35 minutes, 40 secondsagain like the Israeli protest movement mostly was about bringing home the hostages was never about protecting
1:35:481 hour, 35 minutes, 48 secondsPalestinian life or about stopping the destruction of Palestinian cities. And so I and again like when when I hear
1:35:561 hour, 35 minutes, 56 secondsthose conversations happening in parts of the community that I come from, I mean it is just like it is never not
1:36:021 hour, 36 minutes, 2 secondsshocking to me how quickly they manage to erase Palestinians and the the like Palestinian reality and existence at all
1:36:111 hour, 36 minutes, 11 secondsfrom the conversation. They just make it about like us and our own institutional internal crisis. I mean, it makes me think about there's a quote that I think
1:36:191 hour, 36 minutes, 19 secondsabout all the time from the Palestinian writer Tar Bakonei who gave this speech at at this conference that I was at with him in Berlin where he's a conference
1:36:281 hour, 36 minutes, 28 secondscalled hijacking memory. And he said, I can't help but think to myself that Palestinians are just the canvas upon which the Jewish psycho drama takes
1:36:361 hour, 36 minutes, 36 secondsplace. And I I found that line so devastating and I think about it all the time because when I hear something like this from Harari that is like again
1:36:441 hour, 36 minutes, 44 secondsabout this crisis in Judaism that is not explicitly naming that like the crisis is that a
1:36:531 hour, 36 minutes, 53 secondsmassive every major institution of our community just participated in a genocide that has made a a place of
1:37:011 hour, 37 minutes, 1 secondwhere two million people called home that has basically erased it from the pl the from Earth. I mean, the fact that you could even talk about that crisis
1:37:091 hour, 37 minutes, 9 secondsand not not acknowledge like the massive calamity that is on the hands of our community is it's simply unacceptable to me.
1:37:171 hour, 37 minutes, 17 secondsSimone, thank you. It's been a it's been a very very interesting discussion. Thanks for having me.
1:37:241 hour, 37 minutes, 24 secondsThank you.
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