Arab Jews: The Hidden History | Ash Sarkar meets Avi Shlaim - YouTube

Arab Jews: The Hidden History | Ash Sarkar meets Avi Shlaim

Novara Media

1.27M subscribers

718,281 views Jul 21, 2024 Downstream - NEW episodes every Sunday 3pm UK

A foundational principle of the state of Israel is that it keeps Jews safe. This principle has been profoundly challenged in the last nine or so months. But what if Israel never really had the will or capacity to keep all Jews safe and, in fact, has made them less safe?

Avi Shlaim is a historian and author of “Three Worlds: Memoirs of an Arab-Jew”. He joined Ash to talk about the Israeli right, Mossad’s covert operations in Baghdad and what it means to have hyphenated identities.

00:00 Intro

01:36 Experience of Arab Jews Pre-1948

11:07 When Did Things Change?

20:34 Ethnicity in Contemporary Israel

35:13 Jabotinsky

38:25 Jewish Safety and Zionism

44:24 Mossad and Iraqi Jewish Displacement

54:24 Zionists and the Jewish Diaspora

01:02:13 Hybrid Identity

Novara Live broadcasts every weekday from 6PM on YouTube and Twitch.

Episodes of Downstream are released Sundays at 3PM on YouTube.

__________________________

아비 슐라임(Avi Shlaim) 교수의 인터뷰 요약과 평론입니다. 요청하신 대로 본문은 <해라>체로 작성했으며, 별표 기호는 모두 제외하고 문맥에 맞게 다듬었습니다.

인터뷰 요약

1. 1948년 이전 아랍 유대인의 삶과 정체성

1948년 이스라엘 건국 이전, 아랍 세계에는 약 80만 명의 유대인이 거주하고 있었다. 그중에서도 이라크의 유대인 공동체는 2,500년의 역사를 지닌 가장 오래되고 번영한 공동체였다. 이들은 이웃 이슬람교도 및 기독교도와 다름없는 <아랍인>으로서 자신을 인식했다. 가정에서는 아랍어를 말했고 아랍 문화를 향유했으며, 종교가 유대교일 뿐인 이라크 시민이었다.

유대인을 철저한 <타자>로 타도하고 배척하며 <유대인 문제>를 겪었던 유럽과 달리, 이라크를 비롯한 아랍 세계에서 유대인은 수많은 소수 집단 중 하나로서 평화롭게 공존했다. 반유대주의는 본래 유럽의 질병이었으며, 제1차 세계대전 이후 유럽의 반유대주의 문학이 번역되어 들어오기 전까지 아랍 세계에는 유대인을 향한 체계적인 적대감이 존재하지 않았다.

2. 균열의 시작과 이스라엘 건국

아랍 유대인의 평화로운 일상을 깨뜨린 결정적 계기는 시오니즘의 등장과 서구 열강의 개입이었다. 1917년 영국의 발포어 선언은 현지 인구의 90%가 아랍인이었던 팔레스타인 땅에서 소수 유대인의 권리를 우선시한 전형적인 식민주의 문서였다. 영국의 식민 지배는 팔레스타인인들의 땅을 빼앗아 시오니스트들에게 넘겨주었고, 이는 아랍 세계 전역에서 시오니즘에 대한 거대한 반발을 불러일으켰다.

1948년 이스라엘 건국과 제1차 아랍-이스라엘 전쟁은 결정적인 전환점이었다. 이 과정에서 팔레스타인 인구의 절반 이상인 75만 명이 추방당하는 대재앙(나크바)이 발생했다. 전쟁 이후 이라크 정부는 자국 내 유대인들을 잠재적 <제5열>로 취급하며 박해하기 시작했다. 유대인들은 공직에서 해고되었고, 경제 활동과 대학 진학에 제한을 받았다. 아랍 유대인들은 자신들의 의사와 상관없이 이스라엘이라는 국가의 행위에 연루되어 고향에서 이방인으로 전락했다.

3. 미즈라히 유대인의 비극과 모사드의 공작

본래 유럽 유대인(아슈케나지) 중심이었던 시오니즘 지도부는 아랍 유대인들을 미개하고 후진적이라며 철저히 무시했다. 그러나 홀로코스트로 인해 유럽 내 유대인 인구 자원이 고갈되자, 이스라엘은 아랍 세계의 유대인들에게 눈을 돌리기 시작했다.

1950년 이라크 정부는 유대인에게 1년간 한시적으로 출국을 허용하는 법안을 통과시켰으나 초기 등록자는 적었다. 이때 바그다드의 유대인 시설 여러 곳에서 의문의 폭탄 테러가 발생하여 유대인 공동체 내에 거대한 공포와 패닉이 조성되었고, 이는 이스라엘로의 대탈출을 촉발했다. 슐라임 교수는 구술 증언과 바그다드 경찰의 수사 기록을 통해, 이 폭탄 테러 중 상당수가 이스라엘 정보기관(모사드) 소속의 지하 조직원들에 의해 자행되었다는 역사적 증거를 밝혀냈다. 유대인을 보호하기 위해 세워졌다는 국가가 도리어 타국에 사는 유대인의 안전을 위협하여 강제 이주를 획책한 셈이다.

그렇게 고향을 떠나 이스라엘에 도착한 아랍 유대인(미즈라히)들을 맞이한 것은 환대가 아닌 멸시였다. 이들은 공항에 도착하자마자 살충제(DDT) 세례를 받았고, 아슈케나지 엘리트들이 운영하는 수용소에서 비인간적인 대우를 견뎌야 했다. 오늘날 이스라엘 인구의 절반 이상이 미즈라히 유대인의 후손임에도 불구하고, 군사·정치·문화적 권력은 여전히 아슈케나지 엘리트가 독점하고 있으며 이들을 향한 문화적 안하무인은 지속되고 있다. 이 과정에서 많은 미즈라히 유대인들이 자신들의 아랍 정체성을 부정하고 이스라엘 애국주의자로 인정받기 위해 극우 성향을 띠며 더욱 강렬한 반아랍 정서를 표출하는 뒤틀린 보상 심리가 나타나기도 했다.

4. 시오니즘의 인종주의와 가자지구의 현실

시오니즘의 정신적 지주였던 제브 자보틴스키는 시오니즘이 본질적으로 <이주민 식민주의(Settler Colonialism)> 프로젝트임을 숨기지 않았고, 원주민인 아랍인들이 저항하는 것은 당연하므로 철저한 군사적 장벽을 쌓아야 한다고 주장했다. 오늘날의 이스라엘 우익은 자보틴스키의 군사적 압도라는 전술만 계승한 채 정치적 해결을 거부하고 있다.

현재 이스라엘 정부는 가자지구에서 국제 인도주의 법을 전면 위반하며 대량학살(Genocide)을 자행하고 있다. 이들은 구호물자를 차단하고 굶주림을 전쟁의 무기로 삼아 가자지구를 전면 초토화하고 있다. 이러한 민간인 학살 행위는 이스라엘 내 유대인뿐만 아니라 전 세계 디아스포라 유대인들을 오히려 반유대주의의 위험에 노출시키며 그들의 안전을 해치고 있다. 이스라엘이 전 세계 유대인을 대변한다는 가짜 내러티브를 고집하기 때문에, 그들의 범죄 행위가 디아스포라 유대인들에게 투사되고 있는 것이다.

5. 대안으로서의 하이브리드 정체성과 일국론

슐라임 교수가 자신의 회고록을 통해 전하고자 하는 핵심 메시지는 국수주의적 민족주의에 대한 거부와 혼종적(Hybrid) 정체성의 회복이다. 시오니즘은 유대인이라는 정체성을 단일하고 배타적인 하나의 틀로 압착해 버렸으나, 본래 유대인 정체성은 아랍성, 영국성 등 다양한 문화와 공존할 수 있는 풍부한 외연을 지니고 있었다.

타자를 악마화하고 인간성을 박탈하는 민족주의는 대량학살로 향하는 길을 닦을 뿐이다. 이스라엘이 추진해 온 이스라엘·팔레스타인의 분리(이국론)는 이미 사망했다. 인종과 종교에 상관없이, 요르단강에서 지중해에 이르는 영토 안의 모든 주민이 동등한 권리를 누리는 <하나의 민주주의 국가(일국론)>를 건설하는 것만이 평화와 정의를 실현할 수 있는 유일한 대안이다.

평론: 압착된 정체성의 해방과 역사의 도덕적 복원

아비 슐라임 교수의 대담은 이스라엘-팔레스타인 분쟁을 바라보는 지배적인 담론의 이분법적 균열을 파고들며, 시오니즘이 은폐해 온 역사적 기만성을 날카롭게 폭로한다. 본 평론은 그의 증언과 통찰을 바탕으로 시오니즘의 본질, 정체성의 도구화, 그리고 역사적 정의의 회복이라는 세 가지 측면에서 이 텍스트가 지닌 학술적·도덕적 가치를 평가하고자 한다.

1. 시오니즘 내러티브의 해체와 서구 반유대주의의 아랍 수출

슐라임 교수의 가장 파괴적인 학문적 기여는 <유대인과 아랍인은 태생적으로 공존할 수 없다>는 시오니즘의 신화를 해체한 점에 있다. 역사적으로 반유대주의는 기독교 기반의 유럽 사회가 낳은 고유의 고질병이었다. 중세 유럽의 게토와 포그롬, 그리고 나치의 홀로코스트에 이르기까지 유럽은 유대인을 문명 내부의 이물질로 취급했다. 반면 아랍 세계에서 유대인은 오랜 세월 동안 다원적 사회를 구성하는 존중받는 소수자(책의 백성)로서 일상을 공유했다.

그러나 서구의 제국주의적 기획과 결탁한 시오니즘은 유럽의 유대인 문제를 해결하기 위해 아랍의 영토를 식민화하는 모순을 범했다. 이 과정에서 이스라엘 건국 세력은 중동의 역사를 인위적으로 양분했다. 슐라임의 지적대로, 이스라엘이라는 배타적 민족국가의 등장은 아랍의 유대인들을 자국 사회의 유기적 구성원에서 순식간에 외래 침략자의 동조자이자 배신자로 전락하게 만들었다. 즉, 서구의 반유대주의가 시오니즘이라는 매개체를 통해 중동으로 수출되어 오랜 공존의 역사를 파괴한 것이다.

2. 정체성의 압착과 미즈라히 유대인의 뒤틀린 소외

인터뷰에서 드러나는 모사드의 바그다드 폭탄 테러 공작은 시오니즘이 지닌 도덕적 파산을 상징적으로 보여준다. 이스라엘은 전 세계 유대인의 안전한 피난처를 자처했으나, 정작 자신들의 국가 건설과 인구 확충이라는 정치적 목적을 위해 타국에서 평온하게 살아가던 자국민의 삶의 터전을 폭력으로 뿌리 뽑았다. 이는 시오니즘이 유대인의 생명과 안전을 보장하는 이념이 아니라, 국가라는 거대한 우상을 위해 유대인의 다원적 삶을 희생시키는 국수주의 이데올로기임을 증명한다.

더욱 비극적인 것은 이스라엘에 도착한 미즈라히(아랍계 유대인)들이 겪은 정체성의 거세이다. 아슈케나지 엘리트들은 이들을 오염된 존재로 취급하며 문화적 세레나데를 박탈하고 살충제를 뿌렸다. 아랍어와 아랍 문화를 체화한 이들이 이스라엘 사회 내부의 이등 시민으로 생존하기 위해 선택한 전략이 오히려 극단적인 반아랍·우익 애국주의였다는 사실은 심리적 식민화의 전형을 보여준다. 시오니즘은 유대인이라는 유구하고 풍부한 문명적 정체성을 <이스라엘인>이라는 단일한 군사국가적 정체성으로 압착하고 단순화했다.

3. 일국론(One-State Solution)의 도덕적 필연성

슐라임 교수가 인터뷰 말미에 제시한 <요르단강에서 지중해까지>의 일국론은 단순한 정치적 수사가 아닌, 왜곡된 역사를 바로잡기 위한 도덕적 결론이다. 이스라엘은 가자지구에서 무차별적인 폭력과 굶주림을 무기로 대량학살을 감행하며 스스로가 인류 보편의 도덕적 가치인 평화, 정의, 진실의 안티테제임을 자인하고 있다.

과거의 이국론(Two-State Solution)은 이스라엘의 점진적인 토지 강탈과 아파르트헤이트 체제 구축으로 인해 이미 현실성을 상실했다. 이제 유일한 해법은 민족과 종교의 벽을 넘어 모든 인간이 보편적 권리를 누리는 민주주의 국가의 건설뿐이다. 슐라임이 강조하는 유대교의 핵심 가치(이타주의, 진실, 정의, 평화)와 그가 몸소 살아온 아랍 유대인으로서의 혼종적 삶은, 배타적 민족주의의 장벽을 허물고 인간 대 인간으로 연대할 수 있는 새로운 공동체의 가능성을 선명하게 제시한다.

결론

아비 슐라임의 증언은 역사적 진실이 권력의 내러티브를 어떻게 전복할 수 있는지 보여주는 강력한 학문적 투쟁이다. 그는 잃어버린 아랍 유대인의 문명을 복원함으로써, 현재의 비극이 결코 영속적인 것이 아니며 과거의 공존이 미래의 나침반이 될 수 있음을 역설한다. 이 대담은 시오니즘의 폭력성에 신음하는 팔레스타인인들의 해방뿐만 아니라, 민족주의라는 괴물에 갇혀 스스로의 도덕성을 탕진하고 있는 유대인 정체성 자체의 해방을 향한 위대한 고발장이다.

<아랍 유대인: 숨겨진 역사> — Avi Shlaim 인터뷰 요약+평론

이 인터뷰는 단순한 중동 정치 대담이 아니다.
그것은 <“유대인=이스라엘”이라는 현대적 상식 자체를 흔드는 기억의 복원 작업>이다.

이라크 출신 유대인 역사학자 Avi Shlaim 은 자신의 삶과 연구를 통해 다음과 같은 도발적 질문을 던진다.

→ <유대인은 원래 아랍 세계 안에서 함께 살아온 존재였는데, 왜 오늘날 “유대인 vs 아랍인”이라는 절대적 대립 구도가 만들어졌는가?>

그리고 그의 답은 명확하다.

→ <시오니즘과 민족주의가 그 세계를 파괴했다>

이 인터뷰는 바로 그 “사라진 세계”의 기억을 복원하려는 시도이다.

1. “아랍 유대인”이라는 잊혀진 정체성

인터뷰의 핵심 개념은 바로 이것이다.

→ <Arab Jew (아랍 유대인)>

오늘날 많은 사람들에게 이 표현은 모순처럼 들린다.
왜냐하면 현대 정치 담론 속에서:

유대인 = 이스라엘
아랍인 = 반이스라엘

이라는 이분법이 너무 강하기 때문이다.

그러나 Shlaim은 말한다.

1948년 이전 중동에는 약 80만 명의 유대인이 살았고,
그들은:

이라크
이집트
시리아
레바논
모로코

등에서 수세기 혹은 수천 년 동안 살아왔다.

그중 이라크 유대 공동체는 특히 오래되고 번성한 공동체였다.

Shlaim 자신도 바그다드에서 태어났으며, 그는 반복해서 말한다.

우리는 아랍어를 썼다
음식도 아랍 음식이었다
음악도 아랍 문화였다
우리는 이라크인이었다

즉:

→ <유대교는 종교였지 민족국가 정체성이 아니었다>

이 부분은 현대 민족주의 이전의 세계가 얼마나 복합적이었는지를 보여준다.

2. 공존의 역사와 그 한계

Shlaim은 전근대 이슬람 사회에서 유대인들이 유럽보다 훨씬 안정된 위치에 있었다고 주장한다.

그는 다음과 같이 말한다.

유럽에는 “유대인 문제”가 있었다
독일은 “해결책”으로 나치를 선택했다
그러나 이라크에는 “유대인 문제” 자체가 없었다

그의 핵심 논점:

→ 반유대주의는 유럽적 현상이며, 그것이 중동으로 수입되었다

이 주장은 매우 강한 논쟁성을 가진다.

실제로 역사적으로:

이슬람 세계에도 차별은 존재했다
유대인은 완전한 평등 시민은 아니었다
딤미(dhimmi) 체제 같은 제한도 존재했다

그러나 동시에:

유럽식 인종주의적 반유대주의
게토 체제
대규모 포그롬
홀로코스트

같은 형태는 중동에서 상대적으로 약했던 것도 사실이다.

즉 Shlaim은 “이슬람 낙원”을 말하는 것이 아니라,

→ <유럽형 민족주의와 인종주의가 중동을 변형시켰다>

고 주장하는 것이다.

3. 시오니즘과 분열의 시작

인터뷰의 가장 중요한 역사적 전환점은:

1917년 밸푸어 선언
1948년 이스라엘 건국

이다.

Shlaim은 매우 직설적으로 말한다.

→ <영국은 팔레스타인을 팔레스타인인에게서 훔쳐 시오니스트에게 주었다>

그는 시오니즘을 유럽 민족주의와 식민주의의 연장선에서 본다.

특히 흥미로운 점은:

→ 초기 시오니즘은 본질적으로 유럽 유대인 운동이었다

는 주장이다.

즉:

아랍 유대인들은 원래 시오니즘에 큰 관심이 없었다
오히려 시오니스트 엘리트는 그들을 “후진적 동양인”처럼 보았다

그러나 홀로코스트 이후 유럽 유대인 인구 기반이 파괴되자,

→ 시오니즘은 아랍 유대인을 새로운 인구 자원으로 보기 시작했다

는 것이다.

이 지점은 매우 중요하다.

왜냐하면 여기서 “유대인 귀환”이라는 신화가 단순한 민족 귀환이 아니라,

→ 근대 국가 건설 프로젝트였다는 해석이 나오기 때문이다.

4. “철의 장벽”과 식민주의 논쟁

인터뷰에서 매우 흥미로운 부분은 Ze'ev Jabotinsky 논의이다.

Shlaim은 놀랍게도 자보틴스키를 “정직한 시오니스트”라고 평가한다.

왜냐하면 그는:

팔레스타인인들이 저항하는 것은 자연스럽다
어떤 민족도 자기 땅을 포기하지 않는다
따라서 군사력으로 밀어붙여야 한다

고 공개적으로 인정했기 때문이다.

Shlaim이 비판하는 대상은 오히려 노동 시오니즘이다.

왜냐하면:

→ 실제로는 동일한 식민 프로젝트를 수행하면서도, 도덕적 언어로 포장했다

고 보기 때문이다.

이 논쟁은 오늘날의 “정착민 식민주의(settler colonialism)” 논쟁과 직접 연결된다.

오늘날 이 용어는 매우 정치적으로 민감하지만, Shlaim은 말한다.

→ 초기 시오니스트들 스스로가 이미 그런 현실을 알고 있었다

5. 모사드 폭탄 사건 논쟁

인터뷰에서 가장 충격적인 부분 중 하나는 이라크 유대인 탈출 문제이다.

Shlaim은 다음과 같은 의혹을 제기한다.

1950년대 바그다드에서 유대인 시설을 겨냥한 폭탄 사건 일부에:

→ 이스라엘 정보기관 연계 세력이 관여했을 가능성

이 있다는 것이다.

그는:

구술 증언
경찰 문서
재판 기록

등을 근거로 제시한다.

물론 그는 이것이 “모든 탈출의 원인”이라고 주장하지는 않는다.

이라크 정부의 차별과 압박도 중요한 요인이었다고 인정한다.

그러나 그의 핵심 비판은 이것이다.

→ “유대인을 보호하기 위해 세워진 국가”가 다른 나라 유대인들에게 공포를 조성했다면, 그것은 도덕적 모순이다

이 부분은 매우 논쟁적이다.

이스라엘 주류 역사학은 이를 대체로 부정하거나 축소한다.

반면 비판적 역사학자들은:

국가 형성기의 비밀 공작
인구 동원 전략
정보기관 개입

가능성을 꾸준히 제기해왔다.

6. 이스라엘 내부의 인종 위계

Shlaim은 이스라엘 내부에도 강한 위계가 존재한다고 말한다.

아슈케나지(유럽계)
미즈라히(중동·북아프리카계)

사이의 긴장이다.

그는 미즈라히 유대인들이:

도착 직후 DDT를 뿌려졌고
임시 수용소에 배치되었으며
문화적으로 멸시당했다

고 회고한다.

이는 이스라엘이 단순한 “유대 민족 국가”가 아니라,

→ 내부에도 식민적 위계와 문화적 차별이 존재하는 사회

라는 비판으로 이어진다.

특히 그는:

→ 미즈라히 유대인이 원래는 아랍 세계와 이스라엘 사이의 다리가 될 수 있었지만,

이스라엘 엘리트는 그것을 원하지 않았다고 주장한다.

7. “유대인의 안전”이라는 질문

인터뷰 후반부의 핵심은 이것이다.

→ 과연 이스라엘은 유대인을 안전하게 만들었는가?

Shlaim의 대답은 단호하다.

→ 오히려 더 위험하게 만들었다

그는 주장한다.

이스라엘은 세계에서 가장 위험한 유대인 거주지 중 하나가 되었다
가자 전쟁 이후 반유대주의가 세계적으로 증가했다
디아스포라 유대인들이 그 대가를 치르고 있다

이 부분은 매우 민감하다.

왜냐하면 많은 유대인들에게:

→ 이스라엘은 홀로코스트 이후 생존 보장의 상징

이기 때문이다.

그러나 Shlaim은 정반대의 결론을 내린다.

→ 국가주의적 군사 프로젝트가 오히려 유대인과 세계의 관계를 악화시켰다

8. 민족주의 비판과 혼종 정체성

인터뷰 마지막에서 Shlaim은 자신의 핵심 철학을 밝힌다.

그는 문제의 근원을:

→ 민족주의

라고 본다.

그는 애국심과 민족주의를 구분한다.

애국심 = 자기 공동체에 대한 사랑
민족주의 = 적을 필요로 하는 체계

그리고 그는 “아랍 유대인”이라는 혼종 정체성이야말로 중동의 잃어버린 가능성이었다고 본다.

이 부분은 세진님이 자주 관심 보이신:

민족주의와 기억 정치
피해자 정체성
동아시아의 화해 가능성

문제와도 깊게 연결된다.

9. 전체 평가

이 인터뷰의 가장 큰 장점은:

→ <이스라엘-팔레스타인 문제를 “유대인 내부의 역사”로 재구성한다>

는 점이다.

보통 논쟁은:

유대인 vs 아랍인
이스라엘 vs 팔레스타인

구도로 단순화된다.

그러나 Shlaim은 말한다.

→ 원래 그 둘은 그렇게 분리된 세계가 아니었다

이것이 이 인터뷰의 가장 강력한 메시지다.

10. 한계와 비판

그러나 이 인터뷰에도 한계는 있다.

(1) 지나친 이상화 가능성

전근대 아랍-유대 공존을 다소 낭만화하는 측면이 있다.

실제로:

차별
종교적 긴장
정치적 폭력

도 존재했다.

(2) 시오니즘 내부 다양성 축소

시오니즘 내부에도:

사회주의적 흐름
양민족 국가론
평화주의

등 다양한 전통이 있었다.

그러나 인터뷰는 주로 식민주의 프레임에 집중한다.

(3) 팔레스타인 내부 문제 상대적 축소

하마스나 아랍 민족주의 내부의 배타성은 상대적으로 적게 다뤄진다.

따라서 전체 그림이 다소 비대칭적으로 느껴질 수 있다.

11. 결론

이 인터뷰를 한 문장으로 정리하면:

→ <“아랍 유대인”의 기억은, 오늘날의 절대적 적대 구도가 역사적으로 필연적이지 않았음을 보여준다>

Avi Shlaim은 단순히 이스라엘을 비판하는 것이 아니다.

그는:

민족주의 이전의 중동
혼종적 정체성
공존의 가능성

을 복원하려 한다.

그리고 바로 그 점 때문에 이 인터뷰는 단순한 정치 대담을 넘어:

→ <기억과 정체성의 역사 철학>

으로 읽힌다.

Chapter 1: Intro

0:00Jews in Israel today are less safe than anywhere else in the world but it's it's

0:066 secondsmuch much worse than that because Israel generates anti-Semitism uh

0:1414 secondsIsrael is responsible for the upsurge of hostility towards Jews

0:2424 seconds[Music]

0:2626 secondseverywhere the Israeli state and its supporters have a clear narrative all Jews have a stake in

0:3535 secondsIsrael all Jews are represented by Israel and regardless of where they live

0:4242 secondsor how they feel about Israel Israel is the ultimate guarantee of Jewish safety but this week's guest argues that this

0:5151 secondsisn't and has never been true historian and author RV schlame was born in Baghdad in

0:5858 seconds1945 his family had lived in Iraq for literally Millennia and they considered themselves just as Arab as their Muslim

1:051 minute, 5 secondsand Christian neighbors did the foundation of the state of Israel changed all that and in schams View for

1:121 minute, 12 secondsthe worse we talk about how Israel has warped and reduced Jewish identity the

1:181 minute, 18 secondshypocrisy of left-wing zionists and mad's secret bombing campaign against Iraqi Jews I learned a lot from this

1:281 minute, 28 secondsinterview and I hope you you do to AI schlame thank you so much for joining us it's a pleasure to be here with you Ash

Chapter 2: Experience of Arab Jews Pre-1948

1:361 minute, 36 secondsso my first question is before 1948 in Broad terms how would you

1:441 minute, 44 secondsdescribe the experience and culture of Arab Jews living in the Middle East uh before the emergence of the state of

1:521 minute, 52 secondsIsrael in 19 48 there was a large number of Jews living in the Arab world

2:002 minutesuh something like 800,000 Jews uh and there were Jews in

2:062 minutes, 6 secondsLebanon in Syria in Egypt and Iraq where I come from in Iraq there were

2:152 minutes, 15 seconds135,000 Jews before the establishment of the state of Israel and then nearly all

2:222 minutes, 22 secondsof them ended up in Israel uh reluctantly but um uh though Jewish

2:292 minutes, 29 secondscommunities throughout the Arab world the Jewish community in Iraq was the

2:362 minutes, 36 secondsmost ancient going back to um two and a half Millennia ago uh it was the most

2:442 minutes, 44 secondsprosperous the most successful and the best integrated into local uh

2:502 minutes, 50 secondsSociety uh so um this was something that completely changed

2:582 minutes, 58 secondsthe face of the Middle East today we have complete and Stark division there is Israel on one side and Arabs on the

3:063 minutes, 6 secondsother side but before 48 um uh there were Jews throughout the Arab world uh

3:133 minutes, 13 secondsand Muslim Jewish coexistence was not a distant dream um it was the everyday

3:213 minutes, 21 secondsreality and my book three worlds Memoirs of an Arab Jew has aroused a lot of interest in the Arab world because young

3:313 minutes, 31 secondsArabs not so young any Arabs born after 1948 would have no idea they would have

3:383 minutes, 38 secondsa clue that the face of the Middle East was totally different the Jews and Arabs lived side by side until the arrival of

3:493 minutes, 49 secondsZionism and the establishment of the Jewish state which was a real um uh a

3:563 minutes, 56 secondspoint of real Division and polarization in area you talked about the coexistence between Muslims and Jews in the Arab

4:044 minutes, 4 secondsworld before 1948 to make it tangible in terms of things like food

4:124 minutes, 12 secondssocializing music even mixed relationships what was the kind of cultural glue holding people

4:214 minutes, 21 secondstogether the language was a glue a very important factor um my family and and I we were

4:304 minutes, 30 secondsArab Jews uh we spoke Arabic at home we only we didn't speak any other language our

4:384 minutes, 38 secondsculture was Arab culture our food was the most delicious spicy midle EAS food

4:464 minutes, 46 secondsit wasn't European food um my parents music was a very very nice blend of

4:554 minutes, 55 secondsJewish and Arabic music so in every um uh sense of the word we were Arab Jews

5:045 minutes, 4 secondswe were Iraqis whose religion happened to be Judaism and there were Iraqis whose religion was Muslim and there

5:135 minutes, 13 secondsIraqis whose religion um was Christian but we all Iraqis and we United by that

5:215 minutes, 21 secondsfurthermore we had much we Arab Jews had much more in common linguistically and

5:285 minutes, 28 secondsculturally with non-jews around us we had much more in common with them than we had with Jews in Eastern Europe and

5:375 minutes, 37 secondswhen you say had a more in common with the non-jewish uh Neighbors in the Arab world versus uh

5:475 minutes, 47 secondsEastern European Jews what were the differences culturally between Arab Jews and Eastern European Jews in Europe the

5:565 minutes, 56 secondsJews were the other in inverted comma the Jews stood out um Europe had a

6:046 minutes, 4 secondsJewish Problem Germany had a Jewish Problem Adolf Hitler thought he had a solution

6:126 minutes, 12 secondsto the Jewish Problem um Iraq did not have a Jewish

6:196 minutes, 19 secondsProblem Iraq had a lot of minorities it had uh uh Christians calines Assyrians

6:306 minutes, 30 secondsTans sherians Jews a lot of minorities and the Jews were one

6:376 minutes, 37 secondsminority among many and they were no treated no better and no worse than the other minorities and there was a long

6:466 minutes, 46 secondstradition uh of religious tolerance between the different

6:536 minutes, 53 secondsminorities in Iraq the Jews did not live in ghettos they they lived everywhere

6:596 minutes, 59 secondswith the rest of um uh Society uh and um

7:087 minutes, 8 secondsanti-Semitism is a European malady anti-Semitism grew in Europe and from

7:167 minutes, 16 secondsEurope it was exported to the Middle East and one proof of that claim is that

7:247 minutes, 24 secondsthere was no Arabic there was no literature in Arabic anti-semitic literature in Arabic

7:307 minutes, 30 secondsso when there was um the uh when anti-Semitism took off in Iraq after the

7:387 minutes, 38 secondsfirst World War uh anti-semitic literature had to be translated from European languages to

7:477 minutes, 47 secondsArabic uh Literature Like Adolf Hitler's mine uh Camp so that's the difference

7:547 minutes, 54 secondsthat we felt at home we were treated as locals in the Arab world whereas uh in Europe

8:058 minutes, 5 secondsthe Jews were always um a separate class of people uh and a problematic class and

8:128 minutes, 12 secondsit it took Europe much much longer than the Arab world to start treating the

8:198 minutes, 19 secondsJews as co-citizens and even uh before the Jews got full rights in the Arab

8:288 minutes, 28 secondsworld at least there were citizens there were um second class citizens but it was much much better

8:378 minutes, 37 secondsthan uh this status of the Jews uh in Europe uh and it took Europe much much

8:458 minutes, 45 secondslonger to come to terms with the fact that Jews are ordinary human beings with who deserve equal rights can I play

8:538 minutes, 53 secondsdevil's advocate for a second there are people who had listened to this and would maybe say aren't you looking back

9:029 minutes, 2 secondswith rose tinted glasses there's anti-Semitism in Islamic texts there's anti-Semitism which is you know core to

9:119 minutes, 11 secondsthe Muslim identity I don't think that I'm Muslim but many would say that in particular Israel's Advocates how would

9:199 minutes, 19 secondsyou respond to that accusation I would respond by saying that you can always find quotations to support your point of

9:289 minutes, 28 secondsview uh and you can always pick uh some uh lines in the Quran uh and say this is

9:379 minutes, 37 secondsproof of anti-Semitism but uh to counter that there are so many um quotations in the

9:449 minutes, 44 secondsQuran that are not only not anti-semitic but the opposite and in general in Islam

9:529 minutes, 52 secondsthe Jews are treated with respect theab they are the people of the book

9:599 minutes, 59 secondsand so are Christians incidentally they're also the people of the book and they're treated with great um uh respect

10:0710 minutes, 7 secondsso you you can always find selective quotations to argue whatever you like another variant of this argument for

10:1610 minutes, 16 secondswhich you play Devil's Advocate is that uh Islam is incompatible with democracy

10:2310 minutes, 23 secondsand you can find quotations to suggest that uh but if you look serious ious LLY and

10:3010 minutes, 30 secondsobjectively um at um uh Islamic scriptures uh at the Quran uh you'll have to conclude that

10:3910 minutes, 39 secondsthere is nothing in Islam which is incompatible uh with democracy and this is if you look at it objectively and I

10:4810 minutes, 48 secondsDefine objectivity as uncritical acceptance of My Views is that so funny that's how I

10:5610 minutes, 56 secondsDefine objectivity too um when my wife defines objectivity as male

11:0311 minutes, 3 secondssubjectivity I think she's right um when did the status of Arab Jews begin to

Chapter 3: When Did Things Change?

11:1111 minutes, 11 secondschange was it with the emergence of Zionism in Europe was it the Arab Revolt

11:2011 minutes, 20 secondsor was it the 1948 establishment of the state of Israel it's a gradual process and it's

11:2911 minutes, 29 secondsdifficult to put your finger on one particular date but in the aftermath of

11:3611 minutes, 36 secondsthe first world war Britain sponsored uh the Zionist

11:4311 minutes, 43 secondsmovement uh and so one key date is the Bal for Declaration of

11:5011 minutes, 50 seconds1917 in which Britain pledge support for the establishment of a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine

11:5911 minutes, 59 secondsthis was a classic Colonial document which completely disregarded the rights

12:0512 minutes, 5 secondsand aspirations of the local people in 1917 um the Arabs were 90% of the

12:1412 minutes, 14 secondspopulation the Jews were 10% and the Jews owned 2% of the land and yet

12:2112 minutes, 21 secondsBritain the colonial power chose to privilege the Jews over uh the Arabs and

12:2912 minutes, 29 secondsuh I've written a lot about the history of the British mandate in Palestine from 1920 to

12:3712 minutes, 37 seconds1948 but I can summarize it for uh your listeners in one sentence which is that Britain

12:4412 minutes, 44 secondsstole Palestine from the Palestinians and gave it to the Zionist that's why uh

12:5312 minutes, 53 secondsresentment of the Zionist movement started to build up not just in Palestine where the the Arabs were being

13:0213 minutes, 2 secondsdisplaced by the Zionist project but throughout the Arab world there was real Sympathy for the Palestinians and there

13:1113 minutes, 11 secondsis still strong Sympathy for the Palestinians throughout the Arab world today and I'm not talking about

13:1913 minutes, 19 secondsgovernments I'm talking about uh um people so that was one factor that

13:2513 minutes, 25 secondschange and uh the Jews in Iraq were associated with Britain the colonial

13:3313 minutes, 33 secondspower and because Britain was responsible for the displacement of the Palestinians from Palestine by the

13:4213 minutes, 42 secondsZionist um uh that fed into hostility towards the local Jews um then the other

13:5113 minutes, 51 secondsturning point is 1948 the establishment of the state of Israel and the first Arab Israeli War

14:0014 minutesum this is when ethnic cleansing happened this is when Israel expelled

14:0514 minutes, 5 seconds34s of a million uh Arabs um they became refugees more than half more than half

14:1414 minutes, 14 secondsthe Palestinian population became refugees and the name Palestine was wiped off the map this is the LBA it had

14:2314 minutes, 23 secondsrepercussions throughout uh the region the Iraqi Army fought in the War for Palestine at the end of the war Israel

14:3214 minutes, 32 secondssigned Army dis agreements with all its neighbors these are the um the only

14:4014 minutes, 40 secondsinternationally recognized borders that Israel has ever had and they are the only borders that I recognize as

14:4814 minutes, 48 secondslegitimate this is a pre-1967 uh borders the Iraq Iraq did

14:5514 minutes, 55 secondsnot sign an army agreement with Israel the Iraqi Army withdrew from Palestine and Iraq is still officially at War uh

15:0415 minutes, 4 secondswith Israel it's in the aftermath of this War uh that there was an upsurge of

15:1415 minutes, 14 secondshostility towards the local Jews in Iraq uh and elsewhere throughout the Arab

15:2215 minutes, 22 secondsworld and there was popular hostility towards the zionists

15:2915 minutes, 29 secondsbut also there was hostility at the um official level the Iraqi government

15:3715 minutes, 37 secondsbegan persecuting the Jews in Iraq the whole climate change um uh uh Jews were

15:4715 minutes, 47 secondsexpelled were fired from government service restrictions were placed on the activities of Jewish merchants and

15:5515 minutes, 55 secondsJewish financiers quotas were imposed on the number of Jews who could go to universities and medical

16:0416 minutes, 4 secondsschools um so this was uh a real turning point in Muslim

16:1216 minutes, 12 secondsJewish relations in Iraq in a way you stop being Iraqi and you start becoming

16:2016 minutes, 20 secondsIsraelis who are living in Iraq in the eyes of the government th this is this is absolutely right in a nutshell and I

16:2916 minutes, 29 secondshave a remote um uh relative he was a a

16:3516 minutes, 35 secondswriter it's Moshe uh he moved to Israel he in Israel he wrote 10 books all in

16:4316 minutes, 43 secondsArabic and one of them is called Al Min alq The Exodus or the departure from

16:5216 minutes, 52 secondsIraq and he says we left Iraq um uh as Jew

16:5916 minutes, 59 secondsand we arrived in Israel as Iraqis but it's Israel that made all the difference because

17:0717 minutes, 7 secondsZionism gave the Jews uh a territorial dimension for the

17:1417 minutes, 14 secondsfirst time in two Millennia now Zionism created a Jewish state in Palestine

17:2117 minutes, 21 secondsanyone in the Arab world who didn't like Jews anyone like the eal party the right-wing party in Iraq which was very

17:3017 minutes, 30 secondsanti-jewish and um any anti-site could say to the Jews you don't belong here you're not

17:3817 minutes, 38 secondsfrom here um um you are alien and um you why don't you go and join your brothers

17:4717 minutes, 47 secondsin in Palestine so the whole attitude towards the local Jews um change and the Jewish

17:5717 minutes, 57 secondscommunity in um Iraq which had contributed to nation building at every

18:0518 minutes, 5 secondslevel change or the perception of this community change and from being a

18:1318 minutes, 13 secondsconstructive pillar of Iraqi Society it was viewed increasingly as a fifth column how was the

18:2118 minutes, 21 secondsNABA understood by Jews living in the diaspora particularly in the Arab world

18:2918 minutes, 29 secondshow did they think about it 1948 was a very very anxious time for

18:3618 minutes, 36 secondsthe Jews in the diaspora and in the Arab world because whatever they felt about

18:4418 minutes, 44 secondsZionism they were now seen as implicit implicated in what was going on um in

18:5318 minutes, 53 secondsPalestine and um Zionism was a movement by European Jews for European

19:0119 minutes, 1 secondJews um which had very little appeal to Arab Jews and the Zionist

19:0919 minutes, 9 secondsmovement never had the Zionist leaders had no interest in the Jews of the Arab countries they tended to look down on

19:1819 minutes, 18 secondsthem as no better than Arabs as as primitive as backward what changed it was the

19:2519 minutes, 25 secondsHolocaust the Holocaust removed the main reservoir for um uh Jews for the Jewish

19:3519 minutes, 35 secondsstate to be and it's only then that Zionist leaders began to look for Jews from all

19:4419 minutes, 44 secondsfour corners of the earth including the Arab world uh so the attitude of the zist

19:5219 minutes, 52 secondsmovement towards Arab uh Jews change uh and now Arab Jews who had no interest in

20:0120 minutes, 1 secondIsrael um were felt un unwelcome unsafe and many of them ended up in Israel my

20:1020 minutes, 10 secondsmother used to wax lyrical about the wonderful Muslim friends um that we had

20:1720 minutes, 17 secondsin Baghdad and one day I said to her did we have any Zionist friends and she looked at me as if this was a very

20:2620 minutes, 26 secondspeculiar question and she said to me no um Zionism is an ashkanazi thing it's

20:3220 minutes, 32 secondsnothing to do with us and so that ethnic stratification of Jews so safic Jews

Chapter 4: Ethnicity in Contemporary Israel

20:3920 minutes, 39 secondsashkanazi Jews Mahi Jews what kind of impact does that have in contemporary Israeli Society because I don't think

20:4820 minutes, 48 secondsall of these terms will be that familiar to our audience ashkanazi Jews are the Jews of Europe and um North

20:5720 minutes, 57 secondsAmerica by and large and Safar Jews are the Jews of the Middle East North Africa

21:0621 minutes, 6 secondsand the Middle East and some countries in Eastern Europe like Bulgaria as well

21:1521 minutes, 15 secondsuh the name Safar comes Safar from sarad which is Spain and the name sefarin

21:2521 minutes, 25 secondscomes from the Jews who expelled from uh Spain and Portugal um in

21:3321 minutes, 33 seconds1942 and from Spain and Portugal sorry 1492 14 1492 going be like Christopher

21:4021 minutes, 40 secondsColumbus in 1942 I didn't do a history GCS well done thank you for the

21:4721 minutes, 47 secondscorrection U so the Jews were expelled in 1492 from the Iberian Peninsula and

21:5621 minutes, 56 secondsthey wandered um uh they settled down in North Africa and and in in the Middle East and

22:0522 minutes, 5 secondsthey are called saarim now uh Israel was created in

22:1322 minutes, 13 seconds1948 and all the Jews from Arab countries who ended up in Israel are

22:2122 minutes, 21 secondscalled misraim MRA in Hebrew means East so Eastern Jews

22:2922 minutes, 29 secondsuh and that's a collective term from Jews wherever they came from in the Arab world Morocco

22:3522 minutes, 35 secondsTunisia uh Egypt Lebanon wherever uh and this is a common term misraim for all

22:4322 minutes, 43 secondsJews of um Arab Origins because um jabotinsky who as I understand it was an

22:5022 minutes, 50 secondsearly Zionist he wrote We Jews have nothing in common with what is denoted

22:5622 minutes, 56 secondsthe East and we thank God for that when the image of the Zionist Jew is

23:0423 minutes, 4 secondscompletely antithetical to what it means to be Arab even if you're an Arab Jew what did that mean for Arab Jews in

23:1423 minutes, 14 secondsIsrael so jabotinski was the spiritual father of um

23:2223 minutes, 22 secondsum uh of the Israeli right and in 192 three he wrote uh an

23:3123 minutes, 31 secondsarticle the Iron Wall we and the Arabs um and this is the Bible of

23:3923 minutes, 39 secondsZionist foreign policy it was in two parts an analysis of the problem and a

23:4623 minutes, 46 secondssolution the problem was that uh the Zionist wanted to establish a Jewish

23:5423 minutes, 54 secondsstate in Palestine javatini said the Arabs are not a Rabel they are a people

24:0224 minutes, 2 secondsno people in history has ever willingly made way for another people to come and build a state on their land and

24:1024 minutes, 10 secondstherefore Arab opposition to Zionism is inevitable and inescapable so what do you do his answer

24:2024 minutes, 20 secondswas to build an iron wall of Jewish military strength the Arabs would knock the head against the rampa eventually

24:2924 minutes, 29 secondsthey'll give up the hope of defeating the Jews the zanis on the battlefield

24:3524 minutes, 35 secondsand then will come the time for negotiations um with the local Arabs

24:4324 minutes, 43 secondsabout the rights and status in Palestine so that was

24:5024 minutes, 50 secondsjabotinski a strategy for in two stages F first build up military force and then

24:5824 minutes, 58 secondsnegotiations from strength with the Arabs the trouble with Netanyahu and the people like him and the more extreme

25:0725 minutes, 7 secondsright-wing Zionist in Israel and the religious Zionist in Israel today is that they only understood the first part

25:1625 minutes, 16 secondsof the strategy building up military force in order to subdue the Arabs inde defend in indefinitely rather than

25:2525 minutes, 25 secondsnegotiate from strength as a political solution to what is a political problem

25:3225 minutes, 32 secondsso um there there's one other uh point about jabotinski and all the other Zionist

25:4025 minutes, 40 secondsfounding fathers Theodore Herzel um K vitman uh and and it was the orientation

25:4925 minutes, 49 secondson the west they all didn't saw the Jews as not being part of the of the Middle

25:5725 minutes, 57 secondsEast and they didn't want to integrate into the region they saw Israel they saw

26:0526 minutes, 5 secondsthe Jewish State as an outpost of Western colonialism and uh jabotinski is a

26:1326 minutes, 13 secondsclassic example of that he said we have nothing in common with the Arabs and thank God for that but he also said we

26:2226 minutes, 22 secondsum we will man the ramparts the of the West against Eastern

26:3126 minutes, 31 secondsbarbarism and that tells you something about the Zionist movement and its

26:3826 minutes, 38 secondsgeopolitics that it uh the emphasis was not on F finding uh modus vendi with the

26:4626 minutes, 46 secondslocal Arabs the emphasis was always on having the support of the great Powers

26:5326 minutes, 53 secondsso first the British Empire and now the American Empire has there ever

26:5926 minutes, 59 secondsbeen a strain within Israeli politics who have wanted to turn away from the

27:0827 minutes, 8 secondsgreat powers of the West and remake Israel as something which is more integrated with its Arab neighbors or

27:1527 minutes, 15 secondsdoes that just not really exist as a distinct political Trend it was a distinct Jewish school of

27:2427 minutes, 24 secondspolitical thought about the conflict but this was the big issue um uh this was the big

27:3227 minutes, 32 secondsquestion that uh in the land of as of the aspirations of the Zionist and other

27:3927 minutes, 39 secondspeople already lived so what do you do uh about them um uh jabotinski had one

27:4727 minutes, 47 secondssolution build up military force and squeeze them out but there was uh a

27:5427 minutes, 54 secondsmoderate strand in Jewish political thought in

28:0028 minutesPalestine which uh advocated coexistence in a bational state the president of the

28:0928 minutes, 9 secondsHebrew University Dr Juda Magnus uh was one leader the philosopher Martin bbo

28:1628 minutes, 16 secondswas another leader of a movement which was called uh IUD Unity which advocated

28:2428 minutes, 24 secondsa bational state but this was overturn overtaken taken by events in 1948 when

28:3128 minutes, 31 secondsIsrael Used military force very effectively to cut through the guardian um not and after that we don't see uh

28:4128 minutes, 41 secondsit's only a marginal group of canites who uh are not Israeli nationalists who

28:4828 minutes, 48 secondswant to go back to the original land of Kanan and Define their cultural identity as canite but this is not a significant

28:5728 minutes, 57 secondspolitical movement is there a sort of double-faced

29:0429 minutes, 4 secondsto the way in which the Zionist project has positioned

29:1129 minutes, 11 secondsand thought of Arab Jews because on the one hand it's very ashkanazi as you said but on the other hand Arab Jews and the

29:2029 minutes, 20 secondscultural identity of Arab juice whether that's food whether that's names it lends a kind of igenity to the Zionist

29:3029 minutes, 30 secondsproject so Arab Jews might be looked down upon but also at the same time they're seen as a very authentic expression of what it means to be an

29:3929 minutes, 39 secondsIsraeli indeed and one positive recent trend is that Arab Jews or the

29:4629 minutes, 46 secondsdescendants of Arab Jews are very proud of the Arab Heritage and of the folklore

29:5229 minutes, 52 secondsand culture um and I say the descendants of Arab Jews because

30:0030 minutesum all Israelis born since 1948 are not strictly speaking Arab Jews

30:0830 minutes, 8 secondsI I am an Arab Jew because I lived in Baghdad before Israel was established

30:1530 minutes, 15 secondsbut uh um the the misraim the descendants of the Arab Jews are more

30:2330 minutes, 23 secondsthan half the population in Israel but most of the elites the political the the military the cult certainly the cultural

30:3230 minutes, 32 secondsleads they overwhelmingly Ashkenazi and there is still um

30:4030 minutes, 40 secondsuh uh there is still a tendency among the elite to look

30:4830 minutes, 48 secondsdown on the mizraim in Israel and I would have liked

30:5630 minutes, 56 secondsIsrael to become part of its environment to integrate into the region and

31:0331 minutes, 3 secondstherefore I had hopes that the Arab Jews would become a bridge between Israel and

31:1131 minutes, 11 secondsuh the Arab world but the ashkanazi elite never wanted a bridge to um uh the

31:1931 minutes, 19 secondsArab world and therefore the Arab Jews never the misraim never fulfilled that

31:2731 minutes, 27 secondsum function in Israeli Society isn't there also a problem of trying to see

31:3431 minutes, 34 secondsthe MIM as a bridge between Israel and the Arab world when Palestinians are

31:4131 minutes, 41 secondsdenied their political rights their right to self-determination the right to land the right of return because you

31:5031 minutes, 50 secondscan't both be um I guess proud of of an Arab identity

31:5831 minutes, 58 secondsintegrated with your Arab neighbors if at the same time you believe in a project of Jewish Supremacy on a

32:0532 minutes, 5 secondsterritory that Palestinians also have the right to call home uh that is a very

32:1032 minutes, 10 secondsvery real problem for uh Arab Jews um

32:1632 minutes, 16 secondsand the great majority of mizraim resolve it by becoming

32:2332 minutes, 23 secondsIsraelis uh by overcompensating by becoming uh more uh right-wing uh more Arab

32:3332 minutes, 33 secondsspurning than uh most um ashkenazim it's sort of like the more English than the English thing more

32:4132 minutes, 41 secondsEnglish than the English uh or um in America the equivalent would be poor

32:4832 minutes, 48 secondswhite uh people who become American Nationalist and look down uh on the the

32:5732 minutes, 57 secondsArab so that is true of the MIM in Israel to find to establish their credentials as

33:0533 minutes, 5 secondsum Israeli Patriots they adopt strong anti-arab positions but that's isn't

33:1333 minutes, 13 secondstrue of all mizraim the leftwing mizraim who identify with the

33:2233 minutes, 22 secondsPalestinians the um Iraqi Jewish writers in his

33:2833 minutes, 28 secondsIsrael who uh Drew parallels between their displacement in 1948 their nakba

33:3633 minutes, 36 secondsand our displacement from our uh Homeland um El

33:4433 minutes, 44 secondsshart uh who is a very eminent cultural critic at uh the University of New York

33:5233 minutes, 52 secondsUniversity is of Iraqi Origins she's Israeli and she has written a a really

33:5933 minutes, 59 secondsimportant book called um on Palestine sorry on the Arab Jew Palestine and Arab

34:0834 minutes, 8 secondsdisplacements and she makes an explicit parallel between the displacement of the

34:1534 minutes, 15 secondsPalestinians from Palestine what we were talking about earlier the nakba the expulsion of 3/4 of a million Arabs and

34:2534 minutes, 25 secondssomething like 800,000 Jews left the Arab world to go to Israel they

34:3334 minutes, 33 secondswent to Israel because they had no choice they couldn't go anywhere else but there is a difference um there is the theory of the

34:4034 minutes, 40 secondsdouble Exodus that it was a population exchange but it wasn't because the Palestinians were driven out by force by

34:4934 minutes, 49 secondsthe Zionist movement we were not mistreated we were not pushed out life

34:5634 minutes, 56 secondsbecame uncomfortable and safe for us and therefore we moved uh to Israel but there are parallels and Israeli

35:0435 minutes, 4 secondsCommunists for example always made a common cause with the Palestinians who remained inside inside Israel I want to

Chapter 5: Jabotinsky

35:1335 minutes, 13 secondsjust quickly come back to jabotinsky because it was the first time I ever read that Iron Wall was in preparation for this interview and what was striking

35:2335 minutes, 23 secondsto me is that I obviously disagree with his morality but he was very clear sighted

35:3235 minutes, 32 secondsand in a way humanized the Arabs when he said look It's Perfectly Natural they're going to resist our attempt to build a

35:3935 minutes, 39 secondsJewish State on top of them I think it's morally Justified to do that but they're not a they're not a Rabel and what he

35:4635 minutes, 46 secondsalso didn't say is that they'd be motivated by anti-Semitism of any kind he just said no this is settler Colonial relations explicitly called uh the

35:5535 minutes, 55 secondsZionist project to settler Colonial project now not only is that unsayable

36:0236 minutes, 2 secondswithin political circles it's also seen as anti-semitic to say it's a settler Colonial project or that maybe

36:1136 minutes, 11 secondsit's natural for Palestinians to want to resist their displacement the ongoing

36:1836 minutes, 18 secondsoccupation how do you account for that change or that cognitive dissonance among zionists that the early leaders

36:2636 minutes, 26 secondsspiritual leaders the you know founding thinkers were saying yes this is a settler Colonial project and now

36:3336 minutes, 33 secondsIsrael's Advocates will come down like a ton of bricks on you if you make that suggestion public I'm glad you said that

36:4236 minutes, 42 secondsabout um jabotinski because I'm leftwing he was very right-wing but I respect him

36:5036 minutes, 50 secondsbecause he was honest because he admitted that there is a problem that we're trying to take over somebody

36:5736 minutes, 57 secondselse's land and the only way to do it is by force and he had a lot of labor party

37:0537 minutes, 5 secondslabor zis who criticized him and they said no no no this is immoral and he wrote a second article on the morality

37:1337 minutes, 13 secondsof the um Iron Wall I think he called them vegetarians vegetarians that's

37:2037 minutes, 20 secondsright um and uh because they recalled from the use of force they said we are completely defensive we we we wouldn't

37:2837 minutes, 28 secondsuse military force um and he said but there is no other way and uh so he

37:3537 minutes, 35 secondscalled a spade a spade whereas the labor zanis were hypocritical they refus to

37:4337 minutes, 43 secondsadmit that there was a problem and they refused to admit that their aim was to

37:5037 minutes, 50 secondstake over the land and its resources and and to ethnically cleanse the local uh

37:5737 minutes, 57 secondspopulation so there was always a huge gap between the lofty rhetoric of the Zionist movement and the reality of how

38:0638 minutes, 6 secondsthe Zionist treated the Arabs on the ground and Zionist leaders from that time until today fill this Gap with

38:1538 minutes, 15 secondshypocrisy and hug but I I exempt jabotinski from this charge of hypocrisy

38:2338 minutes, 23 secondsI applied mostly to labor Zionist I let's move on a little bit um

Chapter 6: Jewish Safety and Zionism

38:3038 minutes, 30 secondsit's often said by zionists even non-jewish zionists that without Israel

38:3538 minutes, 35 secondsthere's no safety for Jews am I right in suggesting that your thinking is the

38:4338 minutes, 43 secondsopposite that Israel has made the Jewish diaspora a lot less safe yes that is my

38:5138 minutes, 51 secondsview and that is the reality if you look around you uh Israel today is the less

39:0039 minutesleast safe place for Jews uh in the world and uh since the beginning of the

39:0739 minutes, 7 secondswar in Gaza 8 months ago 300,000 Israelis have been displaced some internally but many of them have

39:1739 minutes, 17 secondsleft the country because it's unsafe and it's unsafe on two fronts in the South because of the war in Gaza but also in

39:2639 minutes, 26 secondsthe north because the border war between Israel and his balah um so there's no

39:3539 minutes, 35 secondsquestion that Jews in Israel today are less safe than anywhere else in the world but it's it's much much worse than

39:4439 minutes, 44 secondsthat it's much worse than that because Israel generates

39:5139 minutes, 51 secondsanti-Semitism uh Israel is responsible for the the upsurge of hostility towards Jews

40:0040 minuteseverywhere in the world and we see it very acutely in in Britain today the community security trust which is a

40:1040 minutes, 10 secondsJewish organization collects data and it its data shows that every time Israel

40:1940 minutes, 19 secondshas launched a military offensive in Gaza there's been an upsurge of anti-Semitic in idents uh in this

40:2840 minutes, 28 secondscountry so there is a direct correlation between Israel's actions against the

40:3540 minutes, 35 secondsPalestinians and uh Rising hostility towards the Jews uh in this country and

40:4240 minutes, 42 secondselsewhere and it's undeniable that there is anti-Semitism uh in this country it's it's a serious problem and it's a

40:5140 minutes, 51 secondsgrowing problem but what causes this we have to ask ourselves what is the reason

40:5740 minutes, 57 secondsfor the increase uh of anti-Semitic incidents in this country and the answer

41:0541 minutes, 5 secondsis that Israel is responsible um for the upsurge of anti

41:1341 minutes, 13 secondssemitism and British Jews are in a dilemma because Israel is a central component of their identity so they

41:2241 minutes, 22 secondsidentify uh with Israel and they find it difficult to acknowledge that Israel is

41:3041 minutes, 30 secondsresponsible for the um uh for the Hostile increasingly hostile climate

41:3941 minutes, 39 secondsthat they face uh in this country and my advice to uh uh British Jews is that the

41:4841 minutes, 48 secondsthey British they don't have to identify with Israel they don't have to support Israel they don't have to cling to to

41:5741 minutes, 57 secondsthe attitude of my country uh right or wrong and Jews are not collectively

42:0442 minutes, 4 secondsresponsible for Israel's actions and a growing number of um Jews in this

42:1142 minutes, 11 secondscountry and in America and elsewhere are dissociating uh themselves from Israel

42:1842 minutes, 18 secondsuh I belong to a number of these groups um independent Jewish voices Jews for

42:2642 minutes, 26 secondsjustice for Palestinians uh the uh Jewish voice for Labor uh in the laor party free speech

42:3542 minutes, 35 secondson Israel and all of these people are saying not in our name Israel doesn't represent us we are Jews uh and Israel

42:4342 minutes, 43 secondsis a country which is doing terrible things today it's some uh carrying out

42:5042 minutes, 50 secondsgenocide in in Gaza so it's really really important to distinguish between Jews on the one hand the people uh in

42:5842 minutes, 58 secondsIsrael which is a country so Devil's Advocate again I've seen anti-zionist

43:0643 minutes, 6 secondsJews being accused of being self-hating Jews that there is some

43:1343 minutes, 13 secondsguilt there's some shame and you reject a core part of your identity how do you respond to that

43:2143 minutes, 21 secondsaccusation it's complete rubbish and I'm not going to respond to this um the the

43:2843 minutes, 28 secondsanti-zionists uh give uh rational uh reasons evidence-based

43:3543 minutes, 35 secondsreasons for the criticism of Israel so

43:4143 minutes, 41 secondswhy attribute very honest um well-grounded uh comments and

43:4943 minutes, 49 secondscriticisms on of what Israel is doing uh with self-hating uh I a Jew and

43:5743 minutes, 57 secondsI'm not a self-hating Jew I'm a student of the Arab Israeli conflict and I try to be honest about what is going on uh

44:0644 minutes, 6 secondsand Israel is definitely uh in the wrong so really this view this notion of

44:1444 minutes, 14 secondsself-hating Jews is beneath contempt well I'll I'll let certain journalists on Twitter know um just

44:2244 minutes, 22 secondsmoving on a bit in your book three worlds which really is fascinating ating because at first I thought I was reading

Chapter 7: Mossad and Iraqi Jewish Displacement

44:3044 minutes, 30 secondsan autobiography and a personal history and then as I continued I realized I was reading a social

44:3744 minutes, 37 secondshistory in this book you uncover evidence that suggests that the Israeli

44:4644 minutes, 46 secondsmosad used certain methods to motivate Jews to leave Iraq what was the evidence that you

44:5444 minutes, 54 secondsuncovered and how did they motivate Jews to leave Iraq between

45:0245 minutes, 2 seconds1948 and the 1950s big picture first uh in

45:0845 minutes, 8 seconds1950 there were 135,000 Jews in

45:1445 minutes, 14 secondsIraq by the end of 1952 there only about 10,000 Jews left

45:2245 minutes, 22 secondsin Iraq the whole Community had been wiped out two years in two years and

45:3145 minutes, 31 seconds25,000 Jews ended up in Israel uh in March 1950 the Iraqi

45:4045 minutes, 40 secondsgovernment passed the law with said the Iraqi parliament passed the law it said any Jew who wants to leave the country

45:5045 minutes, 50 secondsis free to do so they have a year to register to leave on a one-way Visa um oneway

45:5845 minutes, 58 secondsVisa um and not many Jews registered to leave and in the next

46:0846 minutes, 8 secondsyear five bombs exploded in Jewish premises in Baghdad and that created a

46:1546 minutes, 15 secondspanic uh and that helped to precipitate The Exodus to uh

46:2346 minutes, 23 secondsIsrael and there are always rumors that the m was involved in the bombs I was always

46:3146 minutes, 31 secondsfascinated by this question since I was a boy and now when researching this book

46:3846 minutes, 38 secondsI found two sources of evidence that point to Mad connection one is that I

46:4746 minutes, 47 secondsinterviewed a very elderly um friend of my mothers in Ramadan uh Yakov kuki who

46:5746 minutes, 57 secondswas in the Zionist underground in Baghdad and he told me about their actions what they did how they organized

47:0547 minutes, 5 secondsillegal immigration and then after the law I just mentioned legal immigration

47:1147 minutes, 11 secondsto Israel how they Forge documents how they paid bribes but most importantly he

47:1847 minutes, 18 secondstold me that one of his colleagues yov no sorry um Yosef basri

47:2747 minutes, 27 seconds28 28 yearold lawyer and an anden Zionist he was a member of the

47:3647 minutes, 36 secondsunderground and he was responsible for three out of the five bombs and uh in my research I

47:4447 minutes, 44 secondsestablished that one bomb was lobed one hand grenade was lobbed by a young

47:5147 minutes, 51 secondsactivist in the eal party which wanted to expel the Jews from Iraq and

47:5747 minutes, 57 secondsconfiscate the uh properties and another bomb was another hand grenade was lobed

48:0548 minutes, 5 secondsinto the masud Shmo synagogue and there four people uh were killed and he was a

48:1348 minutes, 13 secondscriminal who had a grudge against the Jews and it had nothing to do with the

48:2048 minutes, 20 secondsmad but three other bombs um uh the Zionist activists

48:2748 minutes, 27 secondsuh especially specifically Yosef basri were responsible for

48:3348 minutes, 33 secondsthem uh and the um controller of basri

48:4048 minutes, 40 secondswas um an Israeli intelligence officer called um max

48:4948 minutes, 49 secondsbenett he gave him the orders he gave him the TNT um um basri was called

48:5848 minutes, 58 secondstried uh proper trial not a show trial and convicted and

49:0449 minutes, 4 secondshanged um and so that's one source of evidence oral evidence which is we all

49:1249 minutes, 12 secondsknow is not totally reliable the other source of evidence is

49:2049 minutes, 20 secondsum a a Baghdad police report one page from from the investigation of basri and

49:3049 minutes, 30 secondshis colleagues which names names and says specifically what basri said in the

49:3749 minutes, 37 secondsinter interrogation uh and so I now have written evidence as well as oral

49:4549 minutes, 45 secondsevidence that uh Israeli intelligence officers were involved in the planting

49:5349 minutes, 53 secondsof um bombs in Baghdad on Jewish sides now my Zionist critics said uh that even

50:0150 minutes, 1 secondif I was right even if all this is true the main reason for The Exodus was

50:1050 minutes, 10 secondsnot the bombs it was persecution by the government and I concede that it's not

50:1750 minutes, 17 secondspart of my argument that the bombs were the main reason for the liquidation of this community but my answer to my

50:2550 minutes, 25 secondsZionist critics is even if I knew for certain that not a single Iraqi Jew left Iraq to go to Israel because of the

50:3450 minutes, 34 secondsbombs I would still think this is a real indictment of the state of Israel because Israel was created to provide a

50:4150 minutes, 41 secondssafe haven for Jews not to be harassing and threatening Jews in other countries

50:4950 minutes, 49 secondswhen presented with this kind of evidence how have Israeli Jews in your experience

50:5750 minutes, 57 secondsengaged with the idea that mosad you know intelligence agents had a role in

51:0751 minutes, 7 secondsmaking Jews feel afraid for their lives in other countries when I was a boy in Israel there were persistent

51:1651 minutes, 16 secondsrumors uh that um mosad had a hand in the bombs um and these rumors were persist

51:2651 minutes, 26 secondsrecently denied by the government and there are two commissions of inquiry um that exonerated Israel totally but the

51:3651 minutes, 36 secondsrumors persisted um and this belief right or wrong that

51:4351 minutes, 43 secondsIsrael had a hand in uprooting them fed their hostility to the state of Israel

51:5151 minutes, 51 secondsespecially because they didn't have a very warm welcome on arrival

51:5751 minutes, 57 secondsthey arrived and um uh at the airport they were sprayed with DDT with

52:0552 minutes, 5 secondspesticide they're treated like animals so just try and imagine the experience of a Jew from an Arab country who

52:1452 minutes, 14 secondsarrives at the um promised land and the first thing he experiences is beating being sprayed with DDT it's a profound

52:2352 minutes, 23 secondsbetrayal uh and a cultural um um uh

52:3152 minutes, 31 secondsaggression in your face really uh it's treating uh Arab Jews with contempt on

52:3852 minutes, 38 secondsarrival so that's the formative experience and then they are taken to uh Transit camps and in fness to Israel

52:4852 minutes, 48 secondsthis is the early 50s very poor country um limited resources trying to recover from the trauma of the the

52:5752 minutes, 57 seconds1948 War uh but all the same uh these

53:0353 minutes, 3 secondsJews were taken into um Transit camps uh maabarot and everything is difficult for

53:1253 minutes, 12 secondsthem they've lost everything they arrived in Israel with one suitcase and 50 dins that's all so they are pennyless

53:2153 minutes, 21 secondsand they have no way out because they don't have a passport the only place they could go to is um is Israel and the

53:3053 minutes, 30 secondsmanagers of the transit camps are Ashkenazi Jews they have no idea about the history of these people their

53:3853 minutes, 38 secondsachievements their status in other in the uh uh or countries of origin and

53:4653 minutes, 46 secondsthey think they should be grateful for what they are getting so it wasn't a very happy beginning for uh the Jews of

53:5453 minutes, 54 secondsthe Arab lands who arrived in in Israel in the 19 um uh in the early

54:0154 minutes, 1 second1950s individual experiences differed some Jews did better than others uh but for the Iraqi Community as

54:1054 minutes, 10 secondsa whole the experience was like that of a tree being pulled up by the roots it

54:1754 minutes, 17 secondswas a very traumatic experience can zionists ever

Chapter 8: Zionists and the Jewish Diaspora

54:2454 minutes, 24 secondsreconcile their belief in the need for a state of Israel with

54:3154 minutes, 31 secondsthe existence of a thriving culturally distinct and vibrant Jewish diaspora

54:3854 minutes, 38 secondsoutside of Israel in theory this should be perfectly possible because Israel is the country

54:4654 minutes, 46 secondsof uh this the country of its citizens and a quarter sorry a fifth of

54:5454 minutes, 54 secondsthe citizens happen to be Arab but Israel is the country of all its citizens whereas the Jews in the

55:0155 minutes, 1 seconddiaspora are not Israelis if the British Jews the British citizens if the French

55:0955 minutes, 9 secondsJews the French um uh citizens the problem is that Israel claims to be this

55:1755 minutes, 17 secondsnot to be the state of the Jews Israel claims to speak on behalf of um all Jews

55:2555 minutes, 25 secondseverywhere and as I was saying earlier more and more Jews are saying no not in our name we are we are not part of of

55:3455 minutes, 34 secondsour Israel so it's Israel which is the problem with its claim to represent all

55:4355 minutes, 43 secondsJews and to speak on behalf of Jews it doesn't have such um right and there is

55:4955 minutes, 49 secondsanother problem and that is uh Israel um uh be

55:5755 minutes, 57 secondsthe worst anti-sites around the world like Victor Oran in um in hungry is a is a good uh

56:0756 minutes, 7 secondsexample and this goes back to what Herzel said that the anti-semites would

56:1356 minutes, 13 secondsbe among our strongest supporters Benjamin Netanyahu gets on

56:2056 minutes, 20 secondsreally well with anti-semites like Orban like the Christian Evangel LS in America

56:2956 minutes, 29 secondswith people like um um Donald Trump who is anti-Semitic he gets on really well

56:3856 minutes, 38 secondswith them as long as they pro-israeli he doesn't care and the Israel Lobby in

56:4756 minutes, 47 secondsAmerica Funds extreme right-wing Republicans even if they're anti-Semitic

56:5656 minutes, 56 secondsas long as they support Israel so here you have another example in which there

57:0257 minutes, 2 secondsis a real um difference and um between Israel on the one hand and diaspora Jews

57:1157 minutes, 11 secondson the other hand and Israel um now in the by perpet perpetrating the

57:2057 minutes, 20 secondsgenocide in Gaza Israel is doing lasting harm to the Jews of of the world harm

57:2757 minutes, 27 secondsthat would last for two generations because Israel is killing children and killing children is

57:3557 minutes, 35 secondsunforgivable how does it feel as a Jewish person when you see the footage

57:4557 minutes, 45 secondscoming out of Gaza and what you hear from Netanyahu or even Joe Biden is that

57:5357 minutes, 53 secondsthis is being done in the name of keeping Jews safe I think it's an absolutely

58:0058 minutesPreposterous argument because Hamas attacked Israel on the 7th of October it

58:0758 minutes, 7 secondswas a murderous uh attack uh but Israel's response has

58:1558 minutes, 15 secondsbeen uh completely Beyond outside the scale and

58:2258 minutes, 22 secondsIsrael its response had to be uh within the limits of international

58:2958 minutes, 29 secondshumanitarian law but the Israeli response has violated every item in

58:3758 minutes, 37 secondsinternational humanitarian law so as a Jew I feel deeply ashamed and angry about what

58:4658 minutes, 46 secondsIsrael is doing uh and I'm appalled that they um

58:5458 minutes, 54 secondsspeak uh as Jews particularly the religious nationalists

59:0259 minutes, 2 secondsthe religious zist within the government like betsalel smotri and itamar Ben they see

59:1059 minutes, 10 secondsthemselves as Jews and they speak in the name of Jews but they have nothing in common with me and I I'm I'm not a

59:1959 minutes, 19 secondspracticing Jew but I'm proud of my Jewish Heritage and I'm equally proud of my

59:2659 minutes, 26 secondsHeritage and I know that the four core values of Judaism are altruism truth

59:3759 minutes, 37 secondsjustice and peace and the the Israeli government today is the antithesis of these core

59:4559 minutes, 45 secondsvalues the core of of Judaism is nonviolence and look how violent this uh

59:5259 minutes, 52 secondsgovernment is and this the by my count this is the eighth Israeli military

1:00:011 hour, 1 secondoffensive in Gaza the first one was castled in 2008 this is the eth but it's

1:00:081 hour, 8 secondsout of all proportion to what has gone on uh before because the aim is the

1:00:151 hour, 15 secondsdestruction of Gaza making Gaza unable um and the displacement of the

1:00:231 hour, 23 secondspeople in Gaza which is forceable displacement which is a war war crime so Israel is committing War crime uh every

1:00:311 hour, 31 secondsday the aim is to depopulate Gaza and there is a plan to depopulate uh

1:00:391 hour, 39 secondsGaza but now Israel is gone beyond ethnic cleansing to perpetrating

1:00:471 hour, 47 secondsgenocide and Israel has become a paria in the last eight months a real International Pariah the whole of the

1:00:561 hour, 56 secondsglobal South uh is up in arms about what Israel is doing and not only Israel is

1:01:061 hour, 1 minute, 6 secondsthe victim of its own crimes but the so-called rule-based International order uh America and Britain claim to

1:01:151 hour, 1 minute, 15 secondsstand for the rule of law and for um uh the rule-based international order but

1:01:221 hour, 1 minute, 22 secondstheir hypocrisy is exposed for all everyone body to see Britain and America

1:01:291 hour, 1 minute, 29 secondscontinue to supply weapons to Israel and they continue to give diplomatic

1:01:361 hour, 1 minute, 36 secondsimmunity to Israel so Israel because of its Western allies and um support

1:01:441 hour, 1 minute, 44 secondsuncritical support is able to continue with their genocide and some people hesitate to use

1:01:521 hour, 1 minute, 52 secondsthe word genocide I used to but no longer and the Clincher for me is that Israel is

1:02:001 hour, 2 minutesstopping in international Aid humanitarian aid from reaching the starving uh people of Gaza Israel is

1:02:071 hour, 2 minutes, 7 secondsusing starvation as a weapon of War um that is genocide I suppose I've got one

Chapter 9: Hybrid Identity

1:02:151 hour, 2 minutes, 15 secondsfinal question and it's about the possibilities of hybrid

1:02:211 hour, 2 minutes, 21 secondsidentity because listening to you talk you see most excited by the possibilities of

1:02:301 hour, 2 minutes, 30 secondsjewishness when it's combined with arabness or britishness and all these other kinds of ethnic cultural and

1:02:381 hour, 2 minutes, 38 secondsreligious expression and it seems to me that part of your criticism of Israel is that it

1:02:471 hour, 2 minutes, 47 secondsflattens jewishness into just one thing am I right in saying that that the thing that really excites you about jewishness

1:02:551 hour, 2 minutes, 55 secondsis its possibility to sit within a hybrid of lots of different kinds of identity yes and that is the main

1:03:021 hour, 3 minutes, 2 secondsmessage of my Memoirs I try to recreate um a unique Jewish

1:03:111 hour, 3 minutes, 11 secondscivilization of the near East which flourished for Generations but was um

1:03:201 hour, 3 minutes, 20 secondswiped out by the W C Winds of nationalism in the 20 th uh Century so

1:03:281 hour, 3 minutes, 28 secondsthat world no longer exists um and the real uh villain in of

1:03:361 hour, 3 minutes, 36 secondsof this story is nationalism because nationalism is a very uh negative and

1:03:431 hour, 3 minutes, 43 secondsit's a very divisive and destructive force patriotism is different patriotism is love of your country but for

1:03:511 hour, 3 minutes, 51 secondsnationalism you need an enemy and is marene Monroe wrote in her scrap book The Trouble with nationalism is that it

1:04:001 hour, 4 minutesstops US thinking it stops US relating to one another as human beings and look at Israel and the Z the religious

1:04:091 hour, 4 minutes, 9 secondsZionist in charge of Israel they don't regard Arabs as human beings not just

1:04:151 hour, 4 minutes, 15 secondsthe the the people in Gaza but any Palestinians they and they increasingly

1:04:221 hour, 4 minutes, 22 secondsthey call them Nazis and they um um uh demonize a whole

1:04:301 hour, 4 minutes, 30 secondspeople um and uh the trouble with demonizing people is that it paves the

1:04:371 hour, 4 minutes, 37 secondsway to genocide which is what is happening in front of our eyes so I had the privilege of living in an Arab

1:04:451 hour, 4 minutes, 45 secondscountry I know I can relate to Arabs not just as the enemy but as human

1:04:521 hour, 4 minutes, 52 secondsbeings uh and in the epilogue to my book and the narrative only goes up to when I

1:05:001 hour, 5 minuteswas 18 but the epilogue traces the evolution of my thinking on Israel

1:05:071 hour, 5 minutes, 7 secondsPalestine up to the present and I used to support a two-state solution but Israel killed it and therefore um the

1:05:161 hour, 5 minutes, 16 secondssolution that I advocate today is one Democratic state from the river to the

1:05:241 hour, 5 minutes, 24 secondssea with equal rights for all the people who live it live there regardless of

1:05:311 hour, 5 minutes, 31 secondsreligion and ethnicity thank you so much ay schlame thank you it's been a pleasure to talk to you

1:05:421 hour, 5 minutes, 42 seconds[Music]

이스라엘, 팔레스타인, 이란, 터키, 인도, 월남, 쿠바

Sunday, May 17, 2026

“아랍 유대인”이라는 잊혀진 정체성 Avi Shlaim - YouTube