Zionism is at a Crossroads w/ Ilan Pappe
Tom Delgado
3,322 views May 5, 2026
Tom Delgado speaks with professor Ilan Pappe about the future of Israel and Palestine. They talk about the violence in Gaza, the conflicts within Israel, Zionism, the creation of the State of Israel, and what's next.
For more on Ilan's latest book -
Israel on the Brink
And the Eight Revolutions that Could Lead to Decolonization and Coexistence
Israel on the Brink
And the Eight Revolutions that Could Lead to Decolonization and Coexistence
<벼랑 끝의 이스라엘: 일란 파페와의 대담> 요약 및 평론
1. 요약
역사적 맥락과 폭력의 근원
일란 파페 교수는 현재 이스라엘과 팔레스타인에서 발생하는 폭력을 단순한 현상이 아닌, 19세기 말 유럽에서 태동한 지오니즘이라는 프로젝트의 결과로 정의한다
이스라엘의 내부적 붕괴 징후
파페는 신작 <벼랑 끝의 이스라엘>(Israel on the Brink)을 통해 이스라엘이라는 국가의 토대에 심각한 균열이 발생했음을 지적한다
사회적 붕괴: 세속적 자유주의 유대인들과 점령지 내 정착촌을 중심으로 성장한 메시아적 신권 정치 세력 사이의 갈등이 심화되고 있다
. 경제적 위기: 지속적인 전쟁으로 인한 전쟁 경제 체제는 교육, 복지, 주거 등 필수적인 사회 서비스 제공 능력을 약화시키고 있다
. 군사적 한계: 예비군 중심의 군대가 3년 이상 지속되는 전쟁으로 인해 피로감을 호소하며 수행 능력에 의문을 던지고 있다
.
대안으로서의 <단일 민족 국가>
그는 기존의 <두 국가 해법>이 이미 사멸했다고 판단하며, 요르단 강에서 지중해 사이의 지역에 모든 구성원이 종교, 국적, 성별에 관계없이 평등한 권리를 갖는 <단일 민족 국가>(One Democratic State)를 유일한 해결책으로 제시한다
희망의 근거
상황은 절망적이지만 파페는 팔레스타인 청년들의 회복력과 저항 정신, 그리고 전 세계 젊은 세대가 지오니즘과 거리를 두며 인권과 정의의 가치를 우선시하는 모습에서 희망을 찾는다
2. 평론
일란 파페의 분석은 이스라엘-팔레스타인 문제를 단순한 영토 분쟁이 아닌 <정착민 식민주의>(Settler Colonialism)라는 거대 담론의 틀에서 해석한다는 점에서 매우 도발적이면서도 일관된 논리를 견지한다. 그는 주류 학계가 외면하려 하는 <인종 청소>나 <아파르트헤이트>라는 용어를 가감 없이 사용하며 문제의 정면을 응시할 것을 요구한다.
내부 모순에 대한 날카로운 통찰
특히 주목할 점은 이스라엘 내부의 <신권 정치화>에 대한 경고다. 파페는 지오니즘이 유대교를 민족주의로 재정의하면서 발생한 모순이 한계치에 다다랐음을 지적한다. 자유주의적 가치를 지향하는 유대인들과 성서적 율법에 기반한 국가를 꿈꾸는 세력 간의 충돌은, 이스라엘이 외부의 적이 아닌 내부의 모순에 의해 먼저 무너질 수 있다는 강력한 경고를 던진다.
리버럴 지오니즘에 대한 비판적 시각
파페는 소위 <리버럴 지오니스트>들이 가진 이중성을 날카롭게 비판한다. 그들이 입으로는 민주주의와 인권을 말하면서도, 정작 팔레스타인인들과의 완전한 평등이나 난민 귀환 앞에서는 공포를 느끼며 인종차별적 구조를 고수하려 한다는 지적은 뼈아프다. 이는 <계몽된 점령자>나 <진보적인 인종 청소부>는 존재할 수 없다는 그의 단호한 철학을 보여준다.
현실적 불가능성과 도덕적 필연성 사이의 괴리
그러나 그가 제시하는 <단일 민족 국가> 해법은 현실 정치의 관점에서 볼 때 지나치게 이상적이라는 비판을 피하기 어렵다. 수십 년간 쌓인 증오와 불신, 그리고 기득권을 내려놓아야 하는 이스라엘 유대인들의 실존적 공포를 고려할 때, 파페의 비전은 구체적인 로드맵보다는 도덕적 선언에 가깝게 느껴진다.
결론적으로, 파페의 대담은 우리에게 <불편한 진실>을 마주하게 한다. 그는 증상을 고치는 임시방편이 아니라 근원적인 치유를 요구하는 의사와도 같다. 그의 주장이 현실에서 구현될 가능성과는 별개로, 현재의 억압적 구조가 지속 불가능하다는 그의 진단은 이 비극적인 갈등을 바라보는 우리에게 가장 근본적인 질문을 던지고 있다.
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[이스라엘 공부] <벼랑 끝의 이스라엘: 일란 파페와의 대담>
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- 일란 파페 Ilan Pappé는 이스라엘 출신 재 영국, 이스라엘 - 팔레스타인 관계사 전문 역사학자
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Transcript
0:00Hey everybody, thank you for tuning in.
0:022 secondsUh we're here today to talk a little bit about history. Uh obviously it's very important with everything going on in the world. It's always important to get context regardless of what issue you're
0:1010 secondstalking about. And uh obviously today there is an issue that many people are talking about. Many people have different opinions on. It's a very charged issue. So I thought I'd just cut
0:1818 secondsto the chase and get to someone who has a lot of experience in this an expert in the field. Um I'm very fortunate today
0:2525 secondsto be joined by a uh you know a a very esteemed scholar on Israel Palestine in the Middle East. He is uh the head of
0:3333 secondsthe European Center for Palestine Studies at the University of Exit. He is also a former senior lecture at HY University from 1984 to 2006. He's the
0:4141 secondsauthor of countless books uh including the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, a history of modern Palestine and his most recent book Israel on the brink. Uh, I
0:5050 secondsguess please help me welcome I there's no applause or anything but please help me welcome uh the very esteemed Ilan Pap.
0:5858 secondsHow you doing?
0:5959 secondsNice to be with you, Tom. Thank you for having me on your your program. Thank you.
1:031 minute, 3 secondsOf course. Of course. Thank you so much for doing this. Um, so I I've read uh a few of your books and I've watched some of your interviews. Uh, so I think we
1:121 minute, 12 secondscould just really just dive right in. I thought we could just jump in with one of the recurring themes that seems to come up in your work and it it and I
1:211 minute, 21 secondsguess I'll sum it up in a quote that I pulled from one of your uh pieces where you say, "As long as the full implications of Israel's past and
1:291 minute, 29 secondspresent and ethnic cleansing policies are not recognized and tackled by the international community, there will be no solution to the Israel Palestinian
1:371 minute, 37 secondsconflict." I thought we could just jump off here because this goes to that issue of context. and bringing context into the discussion of everything happening right now in the Middle East.
1:481 minute, 48 secondsYeah, definitely. I I think it's a very good place to start because uh one of the major feature of Israel and
1:561 minute, 56 secondsPalestine today that people with knowledge or without knowledge are fully aware of is is violence. uh uh violence
2:052 minutes, 5 secondsuh by by the Israelis uh uh counter violence by the Palestinian resistance
2:122 minutes, 12 secondsuh and of course uh uh violence that spills over to neighboring countries and
2:182 minutes, 18 secondsand the region as it itself and and what history does I hope it allows us to
2:262 minutes, 26 secondsdistinguish between symptoms of violence and the origin of of violent violence.
2:322 minutes, 32 secondsAnd what I meant by by the quote that you you wrote is that um those who genuinely wish to see an end to the
2:412 minutes, 41 secondsviolence, to the end of the oppression of the Palestinians, uh the colonization, the ethnic cleansing, and also the end of the uh
2:502 minutes, 50 secondswhatever Israeli Jews are suffering as a result of the Palestinian resistance.
2:562 minutes, 56 secondsAll of those all those who are genuinely engaged with it have to understand like a good doctor has to understand when he
3:043 minutes, 4 secondsfaces an illness that they have to go to the source of the problem and not deal with the symptoms of the problem. And the source of the problem goes back to
3:133 minutes, 13 secondsthe very idea uh that Europe actually conceived in the late 19th century that
3:213 minutes, 21 secondsand especially after the second world war that the only way it can deal with its own attitude towards the Europe the
3:303 minutes, 30 secondsJews in Europe was by uh building a Jewish state, a European Jewish state at the heart of the Arab world at the
3:383 minutes, 38 secondsexpense of the Palestinians in an historic period where it was not that easy to do it compared to centuries
3:453 minutes, 45 secondsbefore where Europe easily colonized uh other places. This is uh the 20th century. the the Palestinians were
3:553 minutes, 55 secondsalready a nation with a national movement where their own aspiration and uh had no nothing to do with the way
4:044 minutes, 4 secondsJews were treated in Europe and uh and therefore not only they everyone in the Arab world and beyond that in the Muslim
4:134 minutes, 13 secondsworld was astonished that the only way Europe found a solution to its own racism towards Jews was by imposing a
4:224 minutes, 22 secondsJewish state on on on them and in particularly on the Palestinians. So I think that's where it starts. Of course
4:294 minutes, 29 secondsthere are exit points all there always exit points in history but um because the exit points did not deal with this
4:364 minutes, 36 secondsfundamental issue. Uh it's not only that the conflict continue uh it became worse because uh uh you
4:464 minutes, 46 secondsraise first of all you raise hopes that there is a solution and when it doesn't happen despair sinks in and secondly uh
4:554 minutes, 55 secondsyou start with a small Jewish community in Palestine and then it becomes a proper modern state uh continuing the
5:045 minutes, 4 secondssame uh con uh concept that a European Jews state is the only solution for anti-semitism.
5:125 minutes, 12 secondsUh and that creates even a more uh uh you know more complex uh reality uh as
5:195 minutes, 19 secondsfar as our genuine attempt to to see an end to the conflict is concerned.
5:245 minutes, 24 secondsOne of the push backs you would probably get and I'm sure as you know would uh get with that kind of acknowledgement is is the practicality of it. I guess a lot
5:325 minutes, 32 secondsof people will push back and say well okay you accept that there was let's say even if you accept let's say the the
5:395 minutes, 39 secondsdisplacement the knockba now Israel is a state it is there are people there it is it is I guess uh internationally
5:475 minutes, 47 secondsrecognized what is what does that actually look like on the ground as a way to acknowledge and move forward
5:555 minutes, 55 secondsyes it it looks first of all at the result of uh uh the more than 100 years
6:026 minutes, 2 secondsof the project being immunized and protected by the west uh and the inability of the Palestinians to
6:116 minutes, 11 secondsproperly reject it. The end result of these hund more than 100 years one should say is that we have now an
6:206 minutes, 20 secondsapartheite state between the river Jordan and the Mediterranean that discriminates against the
6:276 minutes, 27 secondsPalestinians in different ways. depends on which of which Palestinian community we're talking about. But all the
6:346 minutes, 34 secondsPalestinians who live in their homeland uh are subjected uh either to as the cases in Gaza to
6:446 minutes, 44 secondsgenocide and siege or to a daily ethnic cleansing in the West Bank or discrimination uh if they are citizens
6:536 minutes, 53 secondsof Israel. Not to mention the fact that there are millions of Palestinians who are disallowed from returning to to their homeland as a result of this uh
7:017 minutes, 1 secondproject. So um th this is something that uh uh will fuel uh not only the conflict
7:107 minutes, 10 secondsbut the inability of Israel to continue as a normal state. Uh Israel polices the
7:177 minutes, 17 secondssame number of Palestinians as it has citizens. uh they're not dealing with one small counterinsurgent, you know, an insurgent group or something like that.
7:287 minutes, 28 secondsThey're dealing with the whole nation that they are the only way of engaging with it is through daily oppression. I
7:367 minutes, 36 secondsmean, there are more than 100,000 Israelis involved in maintaining the oppression and colonization of the
7:427 minutes, 42 secondsPalestinians. If you you can look at it even from a different perspective. What does it mean if we if if we don't look
7:507 minutes, 50 secondsat the source of the problem and we're willing boldly and courageously say that in order to solve the problem we have to
7:577 minutes, 57 secondsgo back to that moment and see how we can rectify it. Look at the Middle East today. Israel has caused 6 million
8:068 minutes, 6 secondspeople to become refugees uh within uh I don't know within 3 years. There are 2
8:138 minutes, 13 secondsmillion uh uh uh pal nearly 2 million Palestinian refugees in the Gaza Strip, 1 million Lebanese who are refugees
8:218 minutes, 21 secondsbecause of Israeli actions and 3 million citizens of the Han who are refugees. So you have 6 million people who are
8:298 minutes, 29 secondsrefugees because of this complex idea that uh you somehow can impose
8:378 minutes, 37 secondsuh a a a racist ethnic state not only on the people of Palestine but on the on an
8:448 minutes, 44 secondsarea that is basically Arab, basically Muslim with of course other minorities
8:508 minutes, 50 secondsin it but uh uh is part of a very clear cultural and historical context like you
8:578 minutes, 57 secondscouldn't similarly it was impossible to impose a white supremacist apartheid
9:039 minutes, 3 secondsstate on Africa uh and the only way the South African whites could have done it
9:109 minutes, 10 secondswas through false and imposition uh and it didn't work in the end of the day so we have a similar problem here of
9:199 minutes, 19 secondscourse different every case is different but there are some similarities and and no and if you didn't deal with the core of apartheid in South Africa.
9:299 minutes, 29 secondsUh you would have remained with the same uh um conundrum and problem. Uh but the
9:389 minutes, 38 secondsapatas Africa pro the Apatas Africa problem was dealt at its core at its
9:469 minutes, 46 secondscore. Uh and and uh uh we need a similar approach. I'm not saying it's going to be easy. It's a very complex uh issue.
9:559 minutes, 55 secondsBut um you know in one of my books I I gave the example from a famous Jewish
10:0110 minutes, 1 secondmaxim that uh uh people like to to look for a lost key where there is light but not where they lost the key. So yes
10:1010 minutes, 10 secondsthere is light for where all these efforts are taking place but the key is not there.
10:1610 minutes, 16 secondsWell to that point you mentioned the Palestinians inside Israel. One of the common I uh I guess talking points
10:2310 minutes, 23 secondsyou'll hear is that there is a democracy in Israel that that uh the participation of Palestinians and Arabs in the
10:3010 minutes, 30 secondsgovernment uh you know as as different uh you know civic workers or heads of different organizations and ability to
10:3910 minutes, 39 secondsvote. This is proof that they actually do have a democracy within Israel as opposed to let's say how they're treated in the in the occupied territories. What what would you say to to that um point?
10:5110 minutes, 51 secondsWell, you know, I always start with Desmond Tutu whom I I met when he came to to to Palestine and Israel and he
11:0011 minutesvisited both Israel and the occupied West Bank. And he said apartheid in the occupied West Bank was far worse than
11:0811 minutes, 8 secondsapartheid in South Africa. Apartheid inside Israel is better than apartheid in South Africa, but it's still
11:1611 minutes, 16 secondsapartheid. I'm paraphrasing. I'm not sure he said it exactly like that, but that was more or less his impression.
11:2311 minutes, 23 secondsAnd and although it was his first and I think only visit to the place, I think he got it very he understood very well the situation. A good friend and
11:3211 minutes, 32 secondscolleague of mine, Uri Davis, I think he was the first scholar who ever wrote on Israel as an aparite state back in the
11:3811 minutes, 38 seconds1980s. uh and he said uh sometimes it's not easy to discern the fact that the
11:4711 minutes, 47 secondsPalestinians in Israel are living in an apart state rather than a democracy because it's not a petty apartheite.
11:5411 minutes, 54 secondsNamely, he meant there are no different benches, no different toilets, no different transport. So you need to be a
12:0112 minutes, 1 secondbit more uh uh profound in your analysis in order to understand how the Israeli apartheite works visav the Palestinian
12:1012 minutes, 10 secondscitizens of Israel. And when you do that, as I did in my book, The Forgotten Palestinians,
12:1612 minutes, 16 secondsyou see that uh the informal apartheite, namely in terms of budgets, in terms of how the criminal system treats you if
12:2512 minutes, 25 secondsyou're an Arab, how the police treats you as an Arab, in terms of land ownership, in terms of the ability of
12:3212 minutes, 32 secondsPalestinians to expand their villages and neighborhoods, uh in terms of being uh at the mercy
12:4212 minutes, 42 secondsof the regime and its representative on a daily basis not enjoying the same immunities and protections that the
12:5012 minutes, 50 secondsJewish citizens enjoy. H that is uh the version of apartheite which uh questions the the definition of
12:5912 minutes, 59 secondsIsrael a as a democracy. But of course you cannot separate in any case. You
13:0513 minutes, 5 secondscannot analyze Israel as a democracy and ignore the fact that now for more than
13:1113 minutes, 11 seconds58 years there is part of the country that they rule through military
13:1913 minutes, 19 secondsregulations through a a different legal system which is run by the army and not by by the by the civil by the civil service.
13:3113 minutes, 31 secondsuh and or to to claim that what's happening in Gaza is is is outside the framework of what you analyze as Israel.
13:4013 minutes, 40 secondsNo, Israel there is a one-state uh reality, not one state solution. But uh as Ian Lustik rightly says, there's a
13:4813 minutes, 48 secondsone one state reality from the river to the sea. Uh, and in that reality, if you
13:5513 minutes, 55 secondsare not a Jew, and in particular, if you are a Palestinian, you don't enjoy the fruits of the Israeli democracy.
14:0414 minutes, 4 secondsTo that I would add that of course you'll talk to Israeli Jews who do not subscribe to my views who still see themselves as Zionists. They will tell
14:1314 minutes, 13 secondsyou as the former president of the Israeli Supreme Court Aaron Barak said, Israel is deteriorating quickly into a
14:2214 minutes, 22 secondsfascist non-democratic state as far as its Jewish citizens are concerned, not just its Palestinian. Uh uh the present
14:3114 minutes, 31 secondspolitical and ideological elite has already uh uh destroyed the democratic institutions of the media uh of uh uh of
14:4014 minutes, 40 secondsthe education uh of the army and the last bastion that they're trying to take over and who
14:4814 minutes, 48 secondsknows they may succeed uh is the both the supreme high court the high court the supreme court and the legal system
14:5514 minutes, 55 secondsas a whole. So um uh Every time we we are examining this
15:0215 minutes, 2 secondsassumption that Israel is a democracy, uh we have to also examine the changes
15:0915 minutes, 9 secondsover the years in order that our analysis would be updated to the reality we're facing today. I was going to bring this up a little later, but since since
15:1815 minutes, 18 secondsyou brought it up now, um I think this is kind of what your newest book deals with is is a lot of the I guess uh
15:2515 minutes, 25 secondsdivisions and and and the tumult within Israel. Uh there's so much talk obviously between the uh you know the
15:3315 minutes, 33 secondsconflict between Palestinians and Israelis and Palestinians in the occupied territories and whatnot. But I think a lot of things uh that all of us
15:4115 minutes, 41 secondsmiss for not being there is is the divisions within Israel among Jews in Israel and what's happening uh with that
15:4915 minutes, 49 secondsand your book is titled Israel on the Israel on the brink as in Israel is headed for this kind of I guess uh I
15:5615 minutes, 56 secondsguess clash. Uh, I was hoping you could talk, I know that's a big topic and you know I wanted to talk a little more about Israel and Palestine, but I was
16:0316 minutes, 3 secondshoping you could quickly kind of uh discuss and describe what it is that Israel is on the brink of in your opinion.
16:1116 minutes, 11 secondsI compare Israel to a building and and I'm talking about very uh uh serious uh cracks in the foundation of the
16:2016 minutes, 20 secondsbuilding. uh and uh each foundation is like a pillar and if one goes it doesn't
16:2716 minutes, 27 secondsmean that the building is collapsing but since the there are extensive corrects in all the pillars uh uh this is why I
16:3416 minutes, 34 secondsthink Israel is on the brink and not everything is as rightly you say is connected to the relationship with the Palestinians
16:4316 minutes, 43 secondsuh we can start with the social implosion from within um Zionism had two challenges one was and we talked about
16:5116 minutes, 51 secondsit imposing the idea of a Jewish state over an Arab country. Uh the second challenge was that it defined Judaism as nationalism.
17:0217 minutes, 2 secondsAnd for a while because of the first challenge, this was not a topic that bothered the Israelis, Israeli Jews too
17:0917 minutes, 9 secondsmuch. But over the years, it became really a bone of contention. What does it mean to have a Jewish state? Does it
17:1617 minutes, 16 secondsmean that it's being run by the Jewish uh uh law, the the biblical Jewish law, the Talmudic Jewish law, the Hakic
17:2517 minutes, 25 secondsJewish law, or or does it mean that this is just a national cultural identity that could be secular liberal or
17:3417 minutes, 34 secondssocialist or democratic? Of course, only with regard to the Jewish society. and h
17:4217 minutes, 42 secondsand for a while the the dominance of those who believe that Judaism means a national identity that is close to
17:5117 minutes, 51 secondsEurope or the west uh uh because they dominated politics and especially culture and education. Uh we didn't pay
18:0018 minutesattention to the fact that a large number of of Jews did not subscribe to this idea of Judaism. they were more
18:0618 minutes, 6 secondsconservatives, more traditional, more religious. Now when this was fused,
18:1418 minutes, 14 secondsthis kind of more conservative and traditional trend which was mostly relevant to the Jews who came from the
18:2018 minutes, 20 secondsArab states in the 1950s. When this fused together with a new kind of uh
18:2718 minutes, 27 secondsinterpretation of Judaism as a messianic religion which grew up in the uh occupied West Bank in the settlements in
18:3618 minutes, 36 secondsthe occupied West Bank. together we we have now a very strong demand for building Israel as a theocracy.
18:4718 minutes, 47 secondsuh what will the 40% or so of I mean even 45% of Jews who do not want to live
18:5518 minutes, 55 secondsin theocracy they don't mind so much to live in apartheite but they do do not want to live in a theocracy what will
19:0219 minutes, 2 secondsthey do well they went to mass demonstrations as we have seen after the theocratic ideological nationalist
19:0919 minutes, 9 secondsgovernment was elected in November 2022 uh will they succeed ed through
19:1719 minutes, 17 secondselections in bringing back the hegemony of the more secular liberal Jews. I doubt it very much. Uh unlike for
19:2619 minutes, 26 secondsinstance what we have seen today in in in Hungary, uh the opposition leader to urban had a clear vision to what Hungary
19:3519 minutes, 35 secondsshould be. uh they uh the opposition to NAO doesn't have a clear vision of what uh should be the alternative because
19:4419 minutes, 44 secondsthere isn't such a thing as a secular Jew really. I mean it's not it's not easy to be a secular Christian or a secular Muslim on an individual basis.
19:5419 minutes, 54 secondsOf course we can all we all understand it. I mean we come from a certain background that could be religious. We may not practice our religion but maybe
20:0320 minutes, 3 secondssome you know for the family sake we do certain rights and and and and so on. So on individual basis for sure it's
20:1220 minutes, 12 secondspossible but as a nation it's impossible.
20:1520 minutes, 15 secondsuh and uh and look at the experiments with this on the Islamic side like the Islamic State. Uh this is not working.
20:2320 minutes, 23 secondsUh and um so that's one one pillar the the the social cohesion uh and we already saw an immigration of these more
20:3220 minutes, 32 secondssecular Jews outside of Israel in great numbers and they form the economic elite and the high-tech elite. So that could
20:4020 minutes, 40 secondsbe a big blow in the long term. Then you have an economic crisis. Economy is very important for sustaining. Now on the one
20:4820 minutes, 48 secondshand military industry is booming whenever there is a war of course but on the other hand a war economy means that
20:5620 minutes, 56 secondsyou don't have money for dealing with the problems of your society. Uh whether it's education, welfare, housing and so
21:0521 minutes, 5 secondson. and and we already see after 3 years uh the impact of the war economy on the ability or rather the inability of the
21:1321 minutes, 13 secondsstate to provide fundamental services to uh uh large sections of the of the society. Uh so that's the second kind of
21:2221 minutes, 22 secondspillar that is shaking the economy and it's very important. Now it depends how much America is willing to support Israel. But we have to understand that
21:3121 minutes, 31 secondswhile before 2023 all Isra all Israel demanded from America was a $3 billion a year, now it needs about 20 billion dollars a year.
21:4221 minutes, 42 secondsThat that's becoming uh uh for an American taxpayer quite a question. uh regardless of whether they like Israel
21:4921 minutes, 49 secondsor not. Uh whether this is the where the the American taxpayer money should go to. You have also the exhaustion of the
21:5721 minutes, 57 secondsarmy. Don't people don't talk about it here in in Israel. But but you know it's it's it's a very serious issue. Uh it's
22:0522 minutes, 5 secondsa reserve army mostly namely people left their homes, their businesses, their jobs for more than 3 years now. uh and
22:1522 minutes, 15 secondsuh it begins to have an impact on their ability to perform in the battlefield
22:2222 minutes, 22 secondsand you cannot always I mean you cannot kind of give a vision for a society which says you understand that we will
22:3022 minutes, 30 secondsalways be in a war but we always have to win as well. Again this is not sustainable in the long run. To this you
22:3922 minutes, 39 secondscan add of course the fact that young Jews around the world dissociate themselves from Zionism. The civil society around the world isolates Israel
22:4822 minutes, 48 secondssees it as a pariah state. That might in the future impact also governments as happened in the case of South Africa.
22:5522 minutes, 55 secondsAnd of course I don't think the Palestinian liberation struggle is over.
22:5922 minutes, 59 secondsI I I know that they are not in a good place right now in terms of unity and fragmentation but this can change. And also the revolutions in the Arab world
23:0823 minutes, 8 secondsthat began in 2012 are not over yet as well. And that could also change the
23:1423 minutes, 14 secondsattitude of the region uh uh to an Israel that is aggressive, theocratic,
23:2123 minutes, 21 secondsfundamentalist and all of that uh uh not in the near future as I say in my book, but in the longer term
23:2923 minutes, 29 secondsmakes me doubted the the viability of this project in the long run. You spoke of the changing opinions within Israel
23:3823 minutes, 38 secondsand how it's it's gotten a little more conservative there. The opinions have gotten more conservative. I was I was reading a a piece by Gideon Levy where
23:4623 minutes, 46 secondshe cites a uh poll done recently on the opinions towards the Iran war and with a 93% approval rate amongst Israeli Jews.
23:5823 minutes, 58 secondsWhat do you attribute that to that that change? I mean, you've spoken in other writings of yours about the education system, for example, within Israel, but
24:0624 minutes, 6 secondsis that is that simply it? I mean, I know it's a complex issue, but what do you attribute this this change over the last maybe 20 25 years to?
24:1624 minutes, 16 secondsYeah, it's more complex than just education system, of course, but the education system is is very important.
24:2224 minutes, 22 secondsThe army is an important u tool of socialization.
24:2624 minutes, 26 secondsUh, in many ways, as I said before, Israel sometimes is not a state with an army, but an army with a state and that affects the way people approach wars.
24:3824 minutes, 38 secondsUm, so and the media plays a very important role in in galvanizing public opinion in that direction as well. Um,
24:4824 minutes, 48 secondsto that you have to add what we started our conversation with. If you invade a
24:5424 minutes, 54 secondscountry, if you colonize it, it triggers an anti-colonialist struggle.
25:0025 minutesAnticolonialist struggles are not a walk in the park. Sometimes they are violent.
25:0425 minutes, 4 secondsSometimes they are armed. Sometimes they include guerilla and terror uh actions and that of course feeds into this idea.
25:1425 minutes, 14 secondsIt's what can we do? They want to destroy us. They want to kill us. So we have to we have to support the army when our generals and the leaders tell us
25:2325 minutes, 23 secondsthat in order to succeed we have to preempt for instance or we have to mass kill Palestinians or we have to expel
25:3125 minutes, 31 secondsthem massively because otherwise they would do the same to us with no proof of that but that doesn't matter. What matters is that it's it's easy to
25:4025 minutes, 40 secondsmanipulate fear. Um and and Israel is very good in manipulating the fear of its of its public especially with regard
25:4925 minutes, 49 secondsto Iran. I mean totally ignoring the fact that there is a nuclear arm race because uh Israel in
25:5825 minutes, 58 secondsthe 1960 introduced the nuclear arms into the Middle East and then everybody else feared what Israel can do with nuclear weapons.
26:0826 minutes, 8 secondsWell, we we look at the Israeli leaders today and you ask yourself, are you are you can you sleep at night knowing that
26:1626 minutes, 16 secondsthey have a a an access to 200 and so nuclear bombs? And my answer is no. You should be awake all night because of
26:2526 minutes, 25 secondsthat. Another aspect of this support uh there are two aspects in the case of of the war in Gaza and the Palestinians. It
26:3326 minutes, 33 secondshas to do a lot with the dehumanization of the Palestinians. From the very early on, like all settler colonial movements,
26:4026 minutes, 40 secondsthe Zionist movement had to demonize the Palestinians to justify it as happened in the United States with the native Americans and and the the First Nations
26:5026 minutes, 50 secondsin Canada and and and the natives of uh or the indigenous people of New Zealand and Australia and elsewhere. I mean,
26:5726 minutes, 57 secondsthat's nothing exceptional, but the demonization is important. It it allows you then to to to mass kill and and and
27:0527 minutes, 5 secondsignore international law when it comes to to children or or or women or or old people. The last aspect to it is is what we call in the literature jingoism.
27:1727 minutes, 17 secondsJingoism is uh and and again Israel is not the only uh society. Jingoism is
27:2327 minutes, 23 secondswhen war excites you as a member of the public. It it allows you and we've seen it in Germany in the sec first and
27:3227 minutes, 32 secondssecond world war. Uh Simon Hefner wrote about it, you know, a good German novelist about it. We've seen it in
27:3927 minutes, 39 secondsBritain by the way in the time of the attack on Hartum or the Bore War uh in
27:4627 minutes, 46 secondsAmerica in certain moments. Jingoism is when uh large sections of the society
27:5327 minutes, 53 secondsbelieve eronously of course that war is an outlet for their problems for their
28:0028 minutesdaily hardship for their dissatisfaction with what goes on in their lives. So they get excited the war is more
28:0728 minutes, 7 secondsimportant than anything. So I can forget about anything. Secondly it creates a sense of unity. You know, when I'm in
28:1528 minutes, 15 secondsIsrael during times of war, Israeli society, I don't know if you've been to Israel, but it's very abrasive. People don't say hello to you when you walk. A
28:2428 minutes, 24 secondstime of war, everybody says hello to you. You know, suddenly we're all together. This is a togetherness.
28:3128 minutes, 31 secondsA terrible way of getting a togetherness. I mean, but nonetheless, it it so so I think Eden Levy said he
28:3828 minutes, 38 secondsput it in this way. He said people are addicted to to to to war. It it's the adrenaline is there. It's exciting. It's
28:4828 minutes, 48 secondsyou listen to the news every 10 minutes and so on. Now this of course is tamed by when your house is being destroyed by
28:5628 minutes, 56 secondsan Iranian missile when a member of your family is killed in the army and so on.
29:0029 minutesSo there is always some backlash to that kind of enthusiasm.
29:0629 minutes, 6 secondsBut uh because relatively speaking in terms of the public the cost has not
29:1329 minutes, 13 secondsbeen very high uh jingoism still uh triumphants triumphs in Israel. Yeah.
29:2129 minutes, 21 secondsI watched your interview with Peter Binard who who's great. I interviewed him uh a little while back. But in the in the interview, you said something
29:2929 minutes, 29 secondsthat I thought was really interesting and and u and very concise and I guess insightful is you said that you love the
29:3729 minutes, 37 secondscountry but not the state. And I thought that was a very interesting way to put your feelings towards what's happening.
29:4529 minutes, 45 secondsAnd it made me think of the way a lot of uh liberal Zionists for example will say that what's happening is terrible but
29:5329 minutes, 53 secondsthey don't agree with Netanyahu. they don't agree with the government and they could be very well a lot of the people protesting inside Israel. How does what you're saying differ from those people?
30:0530 minutes, 5 secondsYeah, I think uh well there's there's a good way of examining it. The people who demonstrated through the days of the
30:1330 minutes, 13 secondsgenocide and by the way the genocide continues in a different way but in the days of the more explicit genocide did not demonstrate against the genocide.
30:2330 minutes, 23 secondsThey their criticism that's the difference their criticism of Netanyahu in many ways also on the war of Iran is
30:3230 minutes, 32 secondson the execution of of the policy not about the policy itself.
30:3830 minutes, 38 secondsThat's why there's no opposition to Netanyahu really. I mean he could lose the election but another Netanyahu will come into power because uh they all
30:4730 minutes, 47 secondsagree uh on certain basic assumptions including the liberal Zionists a that uh
30:5530 minutes, 55 secondsthe Palestinians could never be treated as equal uh uh uh citizens or inhabitants.
31:0431 minutes, 4 secondsSecondly, that the Palestinian uh constitute an existential danger for Israel and there is no moral inhibitions
31:1231 minutes, 12 secondson how to deal with that danger that Israel has to deter the Arab world by all means possible. All these are not
31:2031 minutes, 20 secondsquestioned by the liberal Zionists. What they always hoped was was a genuine hope that somehow you can maintain a racist
31:2831 minutes, 28 secondsapartheite state while at the same time abide by universal values such as
31:3531 minutes, 35 secondsliberalism or democracy. Well, you cannot be an enlightened occupier and you cannot be a progressive ethnic
31:4231 minutes, 42 secondscleanser and you cannot be a liberal genocider. It doesn't work. Uh there's a very good book by Alberi. He calls this phenomenon the leftist colonizer.
31:5331 minutes, 53 secondsAnd he says rightly, and that's that's the main difference between me and the liberal Zionist. As Alber me says, when a moment of truth comes,
32:0332 minutes, 3 secondsthen the colonialist in the leftist colonizer overcomes the leftist. This actually
32:1032 minutes, 10 secondskills the leftist. The leftist is not there. When when it comes to the moment of truth that you have to decide to
32:1732 minutes, 17 secondsdecolonize to give up colonialism, then you forget your leftist leftist ideology. You you side with with a colonizer. I can give you an example.
32:2932 minutes, 29 secondsThey would regard my vision. Even if it's unrealistic or realistic, it's not the point. But if I would talk to them
32:3632 minutes, 36 secondsabout my hope, let's say I don't have a plan, anything, but I said, "Wouldn't you like to live in a democracy between
32:4332 minutes, 43 secondsthe river and the sea, where everybody's equal regardless of their religion, of their nationality, in their gender,
32:5132 minutes, 51 secondswhere the refugees who were expelled by Israel are coming back. Let's say it was possible."
32:5832 minutes, 58 secondsThey they they are horrified by this vision of a genuine democracy. They're horrified by genuine democracy. Uh and
33:0633 minutes, 6 secondsand as one of them said to me, you anyone like you who advocates a genuine democracy in Israel and Palestine is a dangerous person.
33:1733 minutes, 17 secondsThat's how that that's that's a very fundamental uh difference. Yeah.
33:2233 minutes, 22 secondsI've seen that you're a member of the the one democratic state movement. Um which I guess is kind of what you're what you're talking about now. Um, and
33:3033 minutes, 30 secondsin the past you've written about the peace process being used as almost this this almost to some to different varying
33:3733 minutes, 37 secondsdegrees among people in in Israel and politicians as almost a stalling tactic um and just kind of paying lip service
33:4533 minutes, 45 secondsto so so you know the international community uh allows Israel it space to do what it wants. in terms of the one
33:5233 minutes, 52 secondsdemocratic state movement. First, why do you believe in the possibility of of one democratic state and also what
34:0134 minutes, 1 secondwould be the first steps towards achieving such a I guess such a lofty goal?
34:0634 minutes, 6 secondsI do believe it because I believe in democracy and equality. I do believe in justice. Justice is a very important
34:1334 minutes, 13 secondsconcept for me and the Palestinians were victims of injustice for more than 100 years. uh and the only way I can see uh
34:2234 minutes, 22 secondsa rectification of that injustice is by uh promising at least now equality with
34:2934 minutes, 29 secondseverything that goes with transitional justice namely um the ability to um
34:3534 minutes, 35 secondsallow people to return or uh the ability of redistributing national resources and
34:4234 minutes, 42 secondsso on. That's one reason that I believe in it. It's really the kind of state I would like to live in. Secondly, I do
34:5034 minutes, 50 secondsbelieve that Zionism is settler colonialists and I do believe the Palestinians are the colonized people in the land of Palestine
34:5934 minutes, 59 secondsand I do believe that they should be in the driver's seat uh in deciding about
35:0535 minutes, 5 secondsthe future and I think that many of them although now we have a political elite
35:1235 minutes, 12 secondsthat still talks about the two-state solution. I think that the younger generation with which I identify uh has
35:2035 minutes, 20 secondsa similar vision for the future. Uh and I do believe that this is the only way
35:2635 minutes, 26 secondsto um end the conflict. Uh it's as you can you know from my book I don't think
35:3335 minutes, 33 secondsit's an easy uh project but it's a possible project. I think it's the only project that can take us out from the
35:4035 minutes, 40 secondscycle of violence. uh and I think it also will have a very positive impact on
35:4635 minutes, 46 secondsthe region uh as a whole. Now as far as um uh taking steps towards it, well the
35:5335 minutes, 53 secondsfirst step as I say in my new book is to have a clear Palestinian position on it.
36:0036 minutesThey are the main stakeholder. if they don't have a representative body that unifies the national movement, the
36:0736 minutes, 7 secondsliberation movement, and says this is our demand, a a a one-state solution, and and they still have many people who
36:1636 minutes, 16 secondsclaim to be speaking on behalf of the Palestinians and support a two-state solution. We cannot move on. Right? What
36:2436 minutes, 24 secondsI suggest in the book is that while this is true, quite a lot of young Palestinian activists, scholars,
36:3136 minutes, 31 secondsacademics, and so on are preparing a more profound uh plan for how you can move forward. Now, uh I I think that
36:4136 minutes, 41 secondsthat would happen. I I think that the two-state solution uh would be recognized as as a dead solution,
36:4936 minutes, 49 secondsnot in the very uh long future, in the near future. And then you will have to come with an the world would have to
36:5736 minutes, 57 secondscome with an alternative especially because the way Israel has developed you know had had Israel really wished to
37:0437 minutes, 4 secondshave a two-state solution they could have created two states in 1967 after they occupied the West Bank.
37:1137 minutes, 11 secondsBut the liberal Zionists regarded the West Bank as the heart of the Jewish nation as strategic asset and so on. So
37:1937 minutes, 19 secondsthere was no if they didn't regard it as a possibility there's no way that the other political side would would accept it. That's the first step. The second
37:2737 minutes, 27 secondsstep I think or maybe it goes together I don't know uh is for the inter those in the international community that have the power to intervene to mediate to be
37:3737 minutes, 37 secondspart of a peace process would also have to endorse this idea. I mean not enough I think that the Palestinians which is a
37:4437 minutes, 44 secondsvery important step forward but there should be an international reaction especially because the principles of the
37:5237 minutes, 52 secondsone state are the two most sacred principles that the west has brought to the Palestinians after the first world
38:0038 minuteswar which they fully accepted. You know, after the first world war, after the Versailles conference, when the League
38:0738 minutes, 7 secondsof Nation was established back in 1918, 1919, the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab people were told, "We suggest
38:1538 minutes, 15 secondsto you now that you are not under the Ottoman Empire under which you were for 400 years uh uh to abide by two
38:2438 minutes, 24 secondsprinciple, the principle of democracy and the principle of self-determination.
38:2938 minutes, 29 secondsAnd the Palestinians embraced these two principles. And then the West told them, sorry, in your case, these two
38:3738 minutes, 37 secondsprinciples are not relevant because your country, although there are only 10% of it are Jews, uh will be a Jewish
38:4538 minutes, 45 secondshomeland. So your the principle of democracy is not relevant here and the principle of your self-determination is
38:5138 minutes, 51 secondsnot relevant here. Uh we have to go back to these two principles. They're very simple. allow everyone to vote including
38:5938 minutes, 59 secondsin the West Bank and Gaza and and see what happens and the refugees as well.
39:0439 minutes, 4 secondsThey should be, you know, uh but it's up to the Palestinian national movement.
39:0939 minutes, 9 secondsI'm not I'm not an adviser to the Palestinian national movement. I'm a supporter of that movement.
39:1439 minutes, 14 secondsA couple points real quick on that on what you just said. one would be the I think the natural push back you would get to this idea of allowing
39:2239 minutes, 22 secondsPalestinians more uh sovereignty and that would be the security issue. the idea that, you know, for example, Hamas
39:3039 minutes, 30 secondsbeing in charge of Gaza and and what they've stated in the past, you know, whether it's whether it's wishing harm on the Israelis or anything like that,
39:3839 minutes, 38 secondsthis idea of a very real threat of giving uh the the Palestinians more sovereignty and ability to to make
39:4639 minutes, 46 secondsdecisions. I I I was wondering how you would respond to something like that.
39:5139 minutes, 51 secondsWho would need the Hamas if there's a one-state solution? I mean all these we're coming back to the symptoms of the problem and not the origin of of the
40:0040 minutesproblem. Uh decolonization is not a a pharmaceutical uh process.
40:0740 minutes, 7 secondsDecolonization from history I can tell you is a painful sometimes failed even uh processes. There's no guarantees
40:1640 minutes, 16 secondshere. That's so so definitely it will be difficult. that the Palestinians would have to deal with their own issues like
40:2340 minutes, 23 secondsthe rest of the Arab world and probably the rest of the world between tradition and modernity, secular and religion.
40:3040 minutes, 30 secondsIt's all these are all soluble issues and the reason Palestinians are not dealing with them is that they are under existential danger. They will deal with
40:3940 minutes, 39 secondsthem and and history tells us that it's the most educated, impressive nation in the Arab world. So I I have I have no
40:4740 minutes, 47 secondsdoubt that they will find a way of dealing with it. So this will not be a Hamas state. This will not be a fat state. This will be a Palestinian state.
40:5640 minutes, 56 secondsUh it's difficult to know how exactly it will unfold. But but first of all uh that's the first point. The second point
41:0441 minutes, 4 secondseven if it's not your or my cup of tea, it is their omelette. It's up to them to to to to do also to to make mistakes as
41:1441 minutes, 14 secondswell as achieve successes. You know, uh the fear of the Israeli Jews from the
41:2241 minutes, 22 secondsPalestinians is not a good enough reason to continue the occupation, the colonization, the ethnic cleansing and
41:2941 minutes, 29 secondsthe genocide. The fear is there. I I I I I totally acknowledge the fear and I hope that there are mechanism to to
41:3841 minutes, 38 secondsdiffuse the fear uh but I cannot let the fear be a factor
41:4641 minutes, 46 secondsuh that allows to immunize Israel in its policies. So yes, the Israelis are taking a chance here. Some of them would
41:5541 minutes, 55 secondsleave undoubtedly uh but uh this is a much better
42:0242 minutes, 2 secondshistorical trajectory than continuing the reality as it is. One should not uh beautify it, idealize it, romanticize
42:1142 minutes, 11 secondsit, but one should recognize that this is the only part of the Arab world that hasn't been decolonized.
42:1842 minutes, 18 secondsAnd as long as it is not decolonized, the whole Arab world is in a mess. and and and and therefore that uh um road
42:2842 minutes, 28 secondsshould be taken. I also should tell you my belief is really from living so much with Palestinians for so many years most
42:3642 minutes, 36 secondsof my life. Palestinians basic impulse of the Palestinians is not revenge is not retribution. It is restitution. They
42:4542 minutes, 45 secondswant to rebuild normal life, natural life which were denied to them for 120 years. I don't think the impulse here is
42:5442 minutes, 54 secondsis is violent. I don't think the impulse is is revenge. Why would Palestinians engage in it? If what they want is
43:0243 minutes, 2 secondsnormal life, this will be contrary to a wish to have normal life. I'm not saying that on the margins you can't have these kinds of things. Of course, you can. Of
43:1143 minutes, 11 secondscourse, you can. Uh but liberation is important and uh liberation can either be achieved by total defeat
43:2043 minutes, 20 secondsof the other side and that's terrible because it's it's destruction everywhere or through evolution or development of
43:3043 minutes, 30 secondsmechanism that already had been attempted in history to uh uh gradually
43:3743 minutes, 37 secondsmake the place more equal, more just uh uh and safe as as possible for everyone uh concerned.
43:4643 minutes, 46 secondsYour parents fled, you know, Nazi persecution. You were you you lived in Israel. You served in the IDF. You have
43:5343 minutes, 53 secondsa history and a background and a I guess a resume in a lot of ways that would point to the fact that you you would be on the other side. You're kind of an
44:0044 minutesanomaly in a lot of ways. And and in past interviews, I've heard you say the reason is because of your love of history and because of your study of
44:0844 minutes, 8 secondshistory. Um I was hoping you could quickly expound on that. Um and and I guess the hope of learning this history uh for others.
44:1644 minutes, 16 secondsYes, definitely. I mean either my the history of my own family or the history in the of the country I was born in
44:2544 minutes, 25 secondsuh brought me to uh uh because I chose it as a kind of a profession a career even I would say or something that I'm
44:3444 minutes, 34 secondsengaged with many hours in the day and at night compared to maybe people who are less interested in history because
44:4344 minutes, 43 secondsof that um entry point to to the reality I encountered how much history is abused
44:5144 minutes, 51 secondsand manipulated uh in uh uh in such a way that leads not
44:5944 minutes, 59 secondsto you know mistakes or false assumptions but to bloodshed to loss of
45:0645 minutes, 6 secondslife to loss of a country uh and and and it's this is the perspective where uh I
45:1345 minutes, 13 secondsI looked at the history and I was really identifying for myself because I could not take the identification that was
45:2245 minutes, 22 secondssuggested to me by my teachers, by my educational system, by my universities in Israel. I could not but identify with
45:3145 minutes, 31 secondsthe victims of history. Whether these that was my family in Germany or the family of my Palestinian friends in Hifa, human beings can be very cruel.
45:4245 minutes, 42 secondsAnd that kind of cruelty that is inbuilt in us uh is used of course by by political ideologies by political
45:5145 minutes, 51 secondssystems by economic powers and so on and in most cases this was used in a very
46:0046 minutesabusive and destructive way against the indigenous people of Palestine.
46:0646 minutes, 6 secondsSecondly, uh you as I said to you before, I think settler colonial project like Zionism
46:1346 minutes, 13 secondsdehumanize the Palestinians. I was able by being outside by by interested in history to rehumanize the Palestinians
46:2246 minutes, 22 secondsfor myself and uh I found uh you know very normal people. I'm not idealizing
46:2946 minutes, 29 secondsanyone, but um people I I suddenly understood that unlike most Israeli
46:3546 minutes, 35 secondsJews, I feel very comfortable in a Palestinian society. That's why I speak Arabic. I write Arabic. I understand
46:4346 minutes, 43 secondsArabic. Uh I understand exactly where I fit in, where I don't fit in. Uh and I I
46:5146 minutes, 51 secondsI can see a Palestine of the past that can be a Palestine in the future which
46:5846 minutes, 58 secondsis Arab connected to the Arab world that is part of Arab culture and a very strong connection to Islamic civilization.
47:0847 minutes, 8 secondsI can see that as a very prosperous place, as a very successful place and one which whether I fit in or not is not
47:1747 minutes, 17 secondsthat relevant. What is relevant that it would be a place where most people who are the indigenous people would feel
47:2647 minutes, 26 secondsfinally safe and at home and leading a normal life. Uh and that's what the
47:3447 minutes, 34 secondshistorical journey for me really eventually helped me to to kind of crystallize as my own if you want
47:4147 minutes, 41 secondsmoral/historical position.
47:4447 minutes, 44 secondsNot to mention that your ability to fit in to a society like that would be the extent to which you identify with democratic principles and the principles
47:5347 minutes, 53 secondsof inclusion and community and whatnot too. Um real quick I just I had a couple more questions. Uh just real quick uh I
48:0248 minutes, 2 secondsguess since we're we're talking I guess more on a personal level um and you spoke about the power of history and learning history in regards to what
48:1048 minutes, 10 secondspeople can do specifically people who are not Israeli, not Jewish, you know, not Palestinian. I mean this has become
48:1748 minutes, 17 secondssuch a global issue. Uh what what do you think is the best way for people to engage in this issue when it is so
48:2548 minutes, 25 secondscharged on both sides? um you know you get a lot of push back from either side when you ask questions when you bring up certain points in history. Um as a
48:3348 minutes, 33 secondsnon-Jew I guess uh you know myself included what what do you think is the best way to engage in this?
48:4148 minutes, 41 secondsWell there are two major things I would say about it. One is, and we already discussed it, the importance of knowing the history of the place in order to
48:5048 minutes, 50 secondsdistinguish between the origin of the violence and the symptoms of violence and no less important is to understand
48:5848 minutes, 58 secondsthat the Palestinians are facing an existential danger.
49:0349 minutes, 3 secondsThat for me is very important and that's why I feel more urgency than ever before in the engagement that I have. Uh I mean
49:1149 minutes, 11 secondsI'm I'm very happy to be part of a discussion of the future and I'm more optimistic than most of my colleagues about the long-term future. But when it
49:2049 minutes, 20 secondscomes to the near future, I share uh the fear, the apprehension uh that uh a lot of people are still
49:3049 minutes, 30 secondsunder grave danger and most of them are Palestinians uh within Israel and Palestine. And I
49:3949 minutes, 39 secondswill give you maybe a concrete example how it works. I mean, I'm convinced that had the EU imposed on Israel 50% of the
49:4949 minutes, 49 secondssanction it imposed on Russia after it invaded the Ukraine, thousands of life of Palestinians would have been saved.
49:5749 minutes, 57 secondsSo uh I'm not saying every action resolves the problem or or brings an end
50:0550 minutes, 5 secondsto the violence but there are degrees and um the civil society including in the west has shown great empathy and
50:1450 minutes, 14 secondscare about the Palestinians. Uh but two things happened. one, it did not influence the governments in any
50:2150 minutes, 21 secondseffective way so far. And secondly, there is an illusion that the Palestinian this terrible period is
50:2850 minutes, 28 secondsbehind us. Uh because supposedly there's a ceasefire in Gaza and so on. But this, as we can see, this goes on and on. The
50:3650 minutes, 36 secondsfire is reignited every time, whether in Tehran, in in in Binge Bale, in South
50:4350 minutes, 43 secondsLebanon or or in Tel Aviv or Gaza. uh the fire is scroting everything and and
50:5050 minutes, 50 secondsuh it you cannot sit in Europe or in America and say well it doesn't matter you know it's far away from here we saw
50:5850 minutes, 58 secondsthe connection between American politics and this fire uh I don't need to explain to anyone the United why the why it's
51:0651 minutes, 6 secondsrelevant to the United States these days right I mean and the same is about Euro I mean there's a European responsibility
51:1351 minutes, 13 secondsthey it's their project it's their project. They they failed dismally after
51:2051 minutes, 20 secondsthe Second World War in not making one effort to convince the European Jews a
51:2751 minutes, 27 secondsthose who were still there to stay in Europe and those who left Europe to come back and build a democratic liberal
51:3451 minutes, 34 secondsEurope together. Instead, they said, "Oh, this idea of you going to Palestine is wonderful. Much better than you you
51:4151 minutes, 41 secondsbecoming equal Europeans. That's not a good idea." colonizing Palestine is a much better idea. That that's a total moral corruption of Europe.
51:5151 minutes, 51 secondsTo segue naturally, I think maybe as a way to wrap up this interview. Um, you kind of were hitting on this, but you you've you've dedicated your life
51:5951 minutes, 59 secondsfighting for this, studying this, u you know, for for I guess for better or worse in the sense that it is incredibly sad to know the the extent of the
52:0752 minutes, 7 secondshistory and and the things that have happened in the past. for someone who knows as much as you have, who's dedicated so much time to this, a at
52:1452 minutes, 14 secondsthis moment where things are so bad, what gives you hope? What has given you hope? And what I guess keeps you, aside from the urgency, I guess, what keeps you pushing and fighting?
52:2452 minutes, 24 secondsWell, first of all, I I'm in contact with a lot of young Palestinians, including in Gaza, in the Gaza Strip. Mhm.
52:3152 minutes, 31 secondsUh the fact that they still show resilience gives me hope. Uh I talked to teenagers in in refugee camps in the
52:4052 minutes, 40 secondsWest Bank and they have not lost hope for one day living a normal life. Uh I I don't have the luxury to lose hope if
52:4852 minutes, 48 secondsthey don't lose hope. You know it's it's would be totally unfair. Uh and and uh they are hopeful and that gives me a lot
52:5552 minutes, 55 secondsof u energy. Through the center I created in exit, I came across a wonderful human capital so to speak uh
53:0453 minutes, 4 secondsyoung Palestinians, post-graduates and pro Palestinian postgraduates who I think would be a very important factor
53:1353 minutes, 13 secondsin uh helping us because we are running out of ideas helping us to to devise new
53:1953 minutes, 19 secondsideas, new methods, new pathways into into the future of liberation, decolonization
53:2853 minutes, 28 secondsuh they have a better understanding of the internet than I do in my age. They understand better I think uh uh
53:3553 minutes, 35 secondsgeneration X or zed. They understand the negative and as and positive sides of the people who would run the world in
53:4353 minutes, 43 secondsthe next 20 years, not those who run it today. And and I I feel very very uh optimistic about their ability to do it.
53:5353 minutes, 53 secondsUh I I know as Palestinians are far more united than the present political politicians. They're very united whether
54:0154 minutes, 1 secondthey live in Israel or uh in the West Bank, Gaza or in a refugee camp in Lebanon or in San Francisco. Uh in the
54:0954 minutes, 9 secondsUnited States, they they are far more united in their vision about the future.
54:1354 minutes, 13 secondsThey talk to each other. Remember before the internet Palestinians were fragmented in a way that did not even enable them all the time to meet and and
54:2154 minutes, 21 secondsdiscuss and and negotiate and and and now this is very accessible period in
54:2854 minutes, 28 secondsour life. I think history is cyclic and we have been through very bad chapters in history and humanity was able to get
54:3754 minutes, 37 secondsout of those uh chapters. I believe in humanity eventually. I I think that um unfortunately it always has to come with
54:4554 minutes, 45 secondsa great disaster before people wake up and then they rebuild the international system, the legal system
54:5354 minutes, 53 secondsand they go back to to to more positive values. You always hope that the catastrophe would be more limited than
55:0055 minutesthe last one and that uh the process of learning would be shorter. that uh Trump will not be there forever and Tanyao
55:0955 minutes, 9 secondswill not be there forever and I don't think Zionism will be there forever. Uh I do hope that what replaces them as
55:1755 minutes, 17 secondsideas, as individuals, as political system is better, but this is up to the next generation to make sure uh that this is uh going to happen.
55:2755 minutes, 27 secondsWell, I think that's a great uh a great place to kind of end. You want to end on a on a high note, on a hopeful note with everything going on. So that's a good I
55:3555 minutes, 35 secondsthink that's a better place than uh than most to end. So I I want to say too uh once again thank you so much for for what you do. I your your books and your work uh mean a lot to so many people.
55:4655 minutes, 46 secondsThey've helped educate people on who who go into this question on either side. So I think uh you know it helps to to kind
55:5355 minutes, 53 secondsof uh create hope as well. Um that being said, I I guess I guess we'll end here.
55:5855 minutes, 58 secondsUh those of you guys who watched, thank you guys for for making it this far in a video. you guys watched a a video for, you know, more than a minute. So,
56:0656 minutes, 6 secondscongratulations on that. And and Professor Pap, thank you so much for your time. I know you're very busy these days. So, I really appreciate it. And those of you guys who want to check out
56:1456 minutes, 14 secondsProfessor Pap's work, I'll put a link and everything in the description. And uh yeah, I guess this is the context that we all I guess can use and and need
56:2356 minutes, 23 secondsso much at this time. So, so thank you guys for doing that and uh I'll talk to you guys again soon. Thank you.
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