He was born into Israeli ‘privilege’. Now his life's work is to abolish it | Eyal Weizman - YouTube

He was born into Israeli ‘privilege’. Now his life's work is to abolish it | Eyal Weizman - YouTube

He was born into Israeli ‘privilege’. Now his life's work is to abolish it | Eyal Weizman

Middle East Eye

 and Real Talk by MEE

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86,822 views  Sep 8, 2026  ✪ Members first on September 4, 2026  Real Talk

"It's my burden. I was born into it."

Eyal Weizman is a leading architect, author, and the founder of Forensic Architecture, whose evidence has fed directly into South Africa's genocide case against Israel at the ICJ.

His new book, Ungrounding, traces the destruction of Gaza back to the Nakba of 1948 and argues that what's happening there today isn't a rupture, but a continuation of decades of dispossession.

In this Real Talk interview, Eyal sits down with Mohamed Hashem about the founding of Forensic Architecture, the argument at the heart of his new book, and how he holds all of it against his own Israeli identity. 

Chapters:

00:00 Intro

05:13 Growing up in Haifa

11:32 'It's my burden'

13:34 'A line of privilege'

22:37 Why 'Ungrounding'?

24:05 The soil, the wadi, and the breadbasket

36:01 A destruction that erases itself

39:18 When does a genocide begin?

49:41 Does he still believe in accountability?

55:53 What's next for Eyal? 

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<탈지상화(Ungrounding): 공간의 말살과 식민 지배의 해체> 요약 및 평론

1. 개요 및 핵심 논지

영국 골드스미스 런던대학교의 연구 그룹 <포렌식 아키텍처(Forensic Architecture)>의 설립자이자 건축학자인 에얄 바에즈만(Eyal Weizman)은 저서 <탈지상화(Ungrounding)>와 매체 <미들 이스트 아이(Middle East Eye)>의 심층 인터뷰를 통해 가자 지구에서 벌어지는 참상을 건축과 환경, 그리고 식민주의적 연속성이라는 독창적인 분석틀로 해명한다. 바에즈만은 2023년 10월 이후 본격화된 가자 파괴를 일시적인 군사 작전이나 돌발적 단절로 보지 않고, 1948년 나크바(Nakba) 이래 지속되어 온 시오니즘 정착민 식민주의(settler colonialism)의 연속선상에서 규정한다.

책의 표제어인 <탈지상화(Ungrounding)>는 단순한 물질적 건축물의 파괴를 넘어선다. 바에즈만에 따르면 시리아 내전이나 우크라이나 침공과 같은 일반적인 도시전에서는 파괴 속에서도 도로망과 건물의 흔적이 남아 도시의 원형을 짐작할 수 있다. 그러나 가자에서 자행된 파괴는 파괴의 흔적마저 지워버리는 전면적인 평탄화, 즉 문스케이프(moonscape)를 만들어낸다. 주민이 살던 집터로 돌아왔을 때 자신의 터전이 어디였는지조차 식별할 수 없게 만드는 이 박탈 행위는, 인간과 장소 사이의 기억과 물리적 유대를 완전히 절단하려는 의도적 폭력이다. 이는 장소에 깊이 뿌리내린 팔레스타인 민족 공동체의 실존적 기반 자체를 지워버리려는 체계적인 학살의 공간적 기제다.

2. 주요 인터뷰 및 저서 내용 요약

바에즈만의 논지는 크게 세 가지 층위에서 전개된다.

첫째, 생태와 지형의 무기화다. 바에즈만은 가자 지구의 지형적 특수성에 주목한다. 서안지구 헤브론 일대에서 발원해 가자로 흘러드는 와디 가자(Wadi Gaza) 유역은 비옥한 토양이 퇴적되어 과거 베두인 농민들이 막대한 양의 보리와 밀을 생산하던 풍요로운 곡창지대였다. 1948년 나크바 당시 시오니즘 농업 계획자들은 이 비옥한 토양을 의도적으로 탐내 팔레스타인 농민들을 추방하고 그 자리에 키부츠 방어선을 둘러쳐 원주민의 귀환을 차단했다. 2023년 이후의 군사적 조치 역시 이러한 환경적 조건과 정확히 맞물린다. 수자원이 풍부하고 토양이 비옥한 동부와 북부의 팔레스타인 주민들을 사막화된 서부 해안의 모래 언덕과 강수량이 극도로 적은 남부의 척박한 땅으로 몰아넣음으로써, 기후와 자연환경 자체를 살상과 축출의 무기로 동원했다.

둘째, '이스라엘성(Israeli Identity)'이라는 특권에 대한 성찰과 거부다. 하이파에서 태어나 자란 바에즈만은 자신이 유대인 우월주의가 제도화된 사회의 기득권 속에 태어났음을 솔직히 고백하며 이를 '삶의 짐'이라고 명명한다. 그는 붉은 기와지붕으로 덮인 언덕 위의 유대인 정착촌이 단순한 주거지가 아니라 계곡과 평지에 거주하는 팔레스타인인을 감시하고 통제하는 지배 장치임을 청년 시절부터 자각했다. 그는 이스라엘 여권을 소지하는 모순적 행위가 팔레스타인 인권 단체 알하크(Al-Haq) 등과의 협력 및 현장 연구를 위해 불가피하지만, 자신의 궁극적인 과업은 자신에게 부여된 이 식민주의적 특권을 활용하여 그 특권 체제 자체를 해체(undo and abolish)하는 것이라 단언한다.

셋째, 국제법과 기록의 투쟁이다. 국제사법재판소(ICJ)와 국제형사재판소(ICC)가 서구 강대국의 방해와 제재로 인해 즉각적인 학살을 중단시키지 못하고 있다는 비판 속에서도, 바에즈만은 법적 책임 추궁의 가치를 더욱 확신한다. 과거 아프리카 국가들의 분쟁에만 제한적으로 적용되던 국제형사재판소가 이스라엘 지도부에 대한 체포영장을 발부하고 법적 조치를 취하기 시작한 순간, 국제법은 유대인 우월주의와 미국의 패권에 실질적인 위협으로 전환되었다. 포렌식 아키텍처의 건축적 증거 수집은 비선형적 붕괴를 대비한 장기전이며, 시오니즘 체제의 균열을 키우고 미래의 완전한 탈식민화를 견인하기 위한 집요한 기록 투쟁이다.

3. 분석과 평론

바에즈만의 저작과 사유는 정치학과 건축학, 그리고 환경 생태학의 경계를 허물며 식민 지배의 작동 방식을 입체적으로 조명한다는 점에서 기념비적인 의의를 지닌다. 기존의 식민주의 및 제노사이드 연구가 주로 법리적 텍스트, 정치적 연설, 외교 문서, 혹은 희생자의 통계에 치중했다면, 바에즈만은 흙, 모래, 계곡의 유역, 콘크리트 슬래브, 도시의 파편 등 지표면의 물질성을 식민 폭력의 핵심 증거로 격상시킨다.

특히 '탈지상화'라는 개념은 제노사이드를 단지 신체적 생명을 앗아가는 행위로만 한정하지 않고, 인간을 둘러싼 공간적 문맥과 역사적 퇴적층을 지워버려 존재의 근거를 말살하는 존재론적 폭력으로 확장한다. 나크바 당시의 토지 강탈과 오늘날 가자에서 벌어지는 전면적 파괴를 단절된 두 개의 사건이 아니라 지표면을 통제하려는 단일한 공간적 기획으로 연결해 낸 통찰은 정주민 식민주의의 본질을 탁월하게 꿰뚫는다.

또한, 내부자로서의 성찰 역시 주목할 가치를 지닌다. 이스라엘 사회 전반에 퍼진 타자의 고통에 대한 무감각과 복수심, 그리고 중도 좌파 엘리트들이 구축한 군사주의의 실체를 가감 없이 폭로하며, '특권을 이용해 특권을 폐기한다'는 윤리적 실천을 제시한다.

결론적으로 <탈지상화>는 파괴된 잔해 속에서 진실을 발굴하는 기술적 포렌식을 넘어, 지표면과 공간에 새겨진 권력의 지형도를 해독하고 식민 지배의 구조를 전면적으로 거부하는 하나의 지적 무기다. 이는 팔레스타인의 비극을 즉자적인 전쟁의 차원에서 해방시켜 수십 년에 걸친 공간적 수탈의 역사 속에서 이해하게 만드는 매우 강력하고도 절실한 증언이다.

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에얄 와이즈만 인터뷰: 「이스라엘의 ‘특권’ 속에 태어난 사람이 그것을 폐지하는 일을 삶의 과제로 삼다」 — 1,000단어 요약·평론

이 자료는 2026년 9월 8일 Middle East Eye의 <Real Talk>에서 무함마드 하셈(Mohamed Hashem)이 이스라엘 출신 건축가이자 연구자 에얄 와이즈만(Eyal Weizman)을 인터뷰한 내용이다. 와이즈만은 런던의 골드스미스 대학을 기반으로 활동하며 <Forensic Architecture>를 창설한 인물이다. 인터뷰는 단순히 가자전쟁에 관한 정치적 논평이 아니라, “건축·토지·환경을 통해 식민주의와 폭력을 어떻게 읽을 것인가”, 그리고 “이스라엘인으로 태어난 사람이 자신의 특권을 어떻게 다룰 것인가”라는 두 문제를 서로 연결한다.

1. “이스라엘인이라는 것은 내가 태어나면서 짊어진 부담이다”

인터뷰에서 가장 인상적인 대목은 와이즈만이 자신의 이스라엘 정체성을 “burden”, 곧 “부담”이라고 부르는 부분이다. 그는 하이파에서 이스라엘 유대인으로 성장했지만 자신이 태어난 장소를 반복해서 “Haifa, Palestine”이라고 부른다. 그에게 ‘팔레스타인’은 단순히 현재의 팔레스타인 자치지역을 뜻하지 않는다. 시오니즘 이전에는 유대인도 “Jewish Palestinian”이라고 불릴 수 있었던 역사적·지리적 공간 전체를 가리킨다.

그렇다고 자신의 유대인 정체성을 버리려는 것은 아니다. 오히려 “내 이름도 매우 이스라엘적이고 유대적이며, 나의 유대인 정체성은 전보다 더욱 강하다”고 말한다. 문제는 유대인임 자체가 아니라 “이스라엘 국가 안에서 유대인이라는 이유로 갖게 되는 우월적 지위”이다. 그래서 그는 이스라엘 여권을 여전히 사용하는 자신의 처지를 역설적으로 표현한다. 그 여권은 자신에게 이동과 접근의 특권을 제공하며, 바로 그 특권을 “우리의 특권을 폐지하는 데 사용해야 한다”고 주장한다.

여기에는 그의 정치철학의 핵심이 있다. 죄책감 때문에 이스라엘인이라는 개인적 정체성을 지워버리는 것이 아니라, 자신이 구조적으로 받은 권리를 팔레스타인인과 동등한 관계를 만드는 데 사용하겠다는 것이다. 그는 이를 탈식민화(decolonization)의 문제로 이해한다.

2. 건축은 중립적인 건물이 아니라 “정치의 형태”이다

와이즈만이 건축가라는 사실은 이 인터뷰에서 결정적으로 중요하다. 그는 “Architecture is politics in form”, 즉 건축은 정치가 물질적 형태를 취한 것이라고 말한다. 건물, 도로, 산 위의 주택, 계곡, 농경지, 도시 배치는 아름다움이나 기능의 문제가 아니라 누가 어디에 살 수 있고 누가 이동할 수 있으며 누가 감시받는가를 결정하는 권력의 구조라는 것이다.

하이파에서 성장하면서 그는 이를 점차 깨달았다고 한다. 언덕 위에 세워진 유대인 정착지, 팔레스타인 마을을 내려다보는 위치, 도로와 지형의 배치가 우연한 것이 아니라 통제와 분리를 위한 공간적 체계였다는 것이다. 하이파의 팔레스타인 주민 대부분이 1948년에 쫓겨난 뒤 극소수만 남았고, 그 흔적이 도시 곳곳에 남아 있었다는 경험이 그의 건축관에 영향을 주었다.

1990년대 팔레스타인 계획부와 함께 일한 경험도 중요했다. 이스라엘 학생이었던 자신에게는 항공사진과 지리 자료에 접근할 수 있었지만 팔레스타인인들에게는 그런 자료조차 허용되지 않았다는 사실을 경험했다. 지도를 소유하고 공간을 볼 수 있다는 것 자체가 권력이라는 사실을 체감한 것이다.

이 경험에서 훗날 <Forensic Architecture>가 탄생한다. 건축가를 인권 침해의 단순한 관찰자가 아니라 증거 분석가로 전환한다. 폭격된 건물, 총격의 방향, 위성사진, 영상, 음향, 잔해 등을 공간적으로 재구성하여 국가폭력과 전쟁범죄를 조사한다. 기존 인권운동에서 변호사와 언론인들이 담당했던 역할에 건축가, 영상전문가, 프로그래머 등이 참여하게 된 것이다.

3. <Ungrounding> — 사람을 죽이는 것에서 “땅과의 관계를 파괴하는 것”으로

인터뷰의 중반부는 와이즈만의 새 책 <Ungrounding>의 문제의식을 설명한다. 그는 가자지구를 단순히 좁은 도시지역으로 보지 않고 토양·비·모래·계곡·농업이 결합된 생태적 공간으로 본다.

특히 가자 남부와 팔레스타인 남서부에서 사막과 농경지가 만나는 지점을 설명한다. 동쪽에는 헤브론 쪽에서 내려오는 비옥한 흙이 있고 서쪽에는 지중해로부터 이동하는 모래가 있다. 비와 토양, 계곡의 흐름이 오랫동안 이 지역의 농경과 생활양식을 만들어 왔다. 이곳의 팔레스타인 베두인 농민들은 보리와 밀을 생산했고, 19세기에는 영국의 맥주 산업과도 연결되어 있었다고 설명한다.

와이즈만이 강조하는 것은 시오니스트 식민화도 바로 이러한 토양과 농업생태를 면밀히 연구했다는 점이다. 농업계획가들은 어느 땅이 비옥한지를 조사하고 그 지역에 유대인 농업정착촌을 건설했다. 따라서 식민화는 추상적인 국경선의 이동이 아니라 “좋은 토양의 확보와 원주민의 추방”이라는 매우 물질적인 과정이었다는 것이다.

여기서 “ungrounding”이라는 말의 의미가 드러난다. 사람을 땅에서 쫓아내는 것만이 아니라 그 사람이 자신의 집, 마을, 농경지, 기억, 풍경과 맺고 있던 관계 자체를 없애는 것이다.

그는 최근 가자의 파괴에서 그 극단적인 형태를 본다. 단순히 건물이 폭격되어 폐허가 되는 정도가 아니라 도로와 지형, 집터의 흔적까지 사라져 귀환한 사람이 “내 집이 어디 있었는지조차 알 수 없는” 상태가 만들어지고 있다는 것이다. 그는 이를 “systematic desertification”, 즉 체계적인 사막화와 연결한다.

4. 1948년 나크바와 현재 가자를 하나의 역사로 읽다

와이즈만의 가장 강력하면서 동시에 논쟁적인 주장은 1948년 나크바와 현재의 가자 파괴 사이에 근본적인 연속성이 있다는 것이다.

그는 처음에는 2023년 10월 13일경 대규모 주민 이동명령을 보면서 현재의 군사행동을 ‘제노사이드’라고 판단하기 시작했다고 말한다. 그러나 연구를 거듭할수록 “제노사이드는 언제 시작되는가?”라는 질문 자체가 바뀌었다고 한다. 1948년의 추방, 네게브의 정착정책, 서안의 점령, 예루살렘의 팔레스타인 공간 축소가 현재 가자의 폭력과 분리된 사건이 아니라 하나의 역사적 과정으로 연결되어 보인다는 것이다.

그래서 현재의 가자전쟁을 “갑작스러운 단절”이라기보다 팔레스타인 사람과 땅 사이의 관계를 끊어온 장기적 과정의 극단화로 해석한다.

다만 이것은 이 인터뷰에서 제시되는 와이즈만의 역사적·정치적 해석임을 구별할 필요가 있다. 인터뷰는 이 주장을 반대하는 역사학자나 국제법학자의 견해를 함께 제시하는 토론 형식이 아니라 그의 입장을 깊이 들어보는 대담이다.

5. 이스라엘 사회에 대한 그의 가혹한 진단

와이즈만은 이스라엘 사회 내부에도 매우 비판적이다. 그는 가자의 고통에 대한 단순한 ‘무관심’보다 더 심각한 것이 있다고 주장한다. 일부 사회에서는 팔레스타인의 고통을 복수와 승리의 감정으로 소비하는 현상이 있으며, 폭력에 대한 광범위한 사회적 지지가 존재한다고 본다.

특히 그는 문제를 네타냐후나 극우 정착민에게만 돌리는 해석을 거부한다. 이스라엘군의 조종사, 정보기관, 고위 군부 등 실제 군사작전을 수행하는 핵심은 상당 부분 세속적 중산층과 정치적 중도·중도좌파에서 나온다는 것이다. 따라서 “정부만 바꾸면 문제가 해결된다”는 생각으로는 충분하지 않다고 주장한다.

여기서는 그의 분석에 주의할 필요가 있다. 이스라엘 사회 전체의 심리를 “폭력을 즐긴다”는 방향으로 일반화하는 대목은 강한 정치적 판단이다. 부분적인 여론조사나 사례로 뒷받침될 수 있더라도 수백만 명의 다양한 태도를 단일 심리로 설명해서는 안 된다. 인터뷰에서 가장 설득력이 떨어질 수 있는 부분도 바로 이러한 사회 전체에 대한 광범위한 심리적 일반화이다.

6. 국제법을 포기하지 않는 이유

흥미로운 점은 와이즈만이 매우 급진적인 이스라엘 비판자이면서도 국제법을 포기하지 않는다는 것이다. <Forensic Architecture>는 남아프리카공화국이 국제사법재판소(ICJ)에 제기한 이스라엘 관련 사건 등에 증거를 제공해 왔다고 설명한다.

인터뷰어가 미국과 서방국가들이 국제법 체계를 훼손하고 있는데도 국제법에 희망을 갖느냐고 묻자 그는 오히려 “그렇기 때문에 책임(accountability)을 더 믿는다”고 답한다. 국제형사재판소(ICC)가 과거 아프리카 사건에 편중되어 있다는 비판을 받았지만 강대국이나 그 동맹에 대해서도 법을 적용하려 할 때 비로소 국제법이 실제 보편성을 획득한다고 보는 것이다.

그는 법적 절차가 당장 폭격을 멈추지 못한다는 사실도 인정한다. 그러나 법은 기록을 만들고 사회운동을 강화하며 향후 수십 년 동안 책임자를 추적할 수 있는 기반을 남긴다고 본다. 그래서 자신의 작업을 “당장의 승리”보다 긴 시간 속에서 이해한다.

평론

이 인터뷰의 가장 중요한 공헌은 이스라엘–팔레스타인 문제를 단순한 “두 민족의 충돌”이나 “이스라엘 대 하마스의 전쟁”으로 보지 않고 공간과 토지의 문제로 다시 보게 한다는 데 있다.

와이즈만에게 핵심 질문은 “누가 먼저 총을 쐈는가?”만이 아니다.

누가 지도를 만드는가.
누가 산 위에 살고 누가 계곡으로 밀려나는가.
누가 도로를 사용할 수 있는가.
누가 자신의 집으로 돌아갈 수 있는가.
그리고 마침내 누가 자신이 살던 집이 어디 있었는지조차 알아볼 수 없게 되는가.

이 질문을 제기하는 순간 건축과 지리학은 정치사의 주변 분야가 아니라 식민주의를 이해하는 중심적인 도구가 된다.

특히 인상적인 것은 그의 개인적 윤리이다. 그는 “나는 이스라엘인이 아니다”라고 자신의 과거를 지워버리지 않는다. 반대로 “나는 바로 그 체제의 특권 속에서 태어났다”고 인정한다. 그리고 자신의 여권, 히브리어 능력, 교육, 건축전문지식, 서구 학계에서의 지위를 그 특권을 해체하는 데 사용해야 한다고 주장한다.

이 점에서는 단순한 반이스라엘 운동가라기보다 “특권을 가진 사람이 자기 위치를 어떻게 책임 있게 사용할 것인가”라는 보편적인 질문을 던지는 사람으로 읽을 수 있다.

그러나 그의 역사서술에는 위험도 있다. 1948년 나크바에서 1967년 점령, 정착촌 확대, 2023년 이후 가자의 파괴까지를 하나의 식민적 논리로 묶는 것은 강력한 설명력을 갖는 동시에 각 시대의 정치적 조건과 행위자, 전쟁의 직접적 계기와 팔레스타인 측의 정치적·군사적 행위가 희미해질 위험이 있다. 또한 헤레로 학살, 아르메니아인 추방 등의 사례를 ‘사막과 제노사이드’라는 공통 틀 안에서 연결하는 것은 흥미롭지만, 역사적 차이를 충분히 고려하지 않으면 비교사가 아니라 하나의 이론으로 역사를 재단하게 될 수도 있다.

그럼에도 이 인터뷰에서 가장 기억할 만한 말은 “이스라엘은 내가 태어나면서 받은 부담”이라는 표현보다 오히려 그 다음 단계에 있다. 와이즈만은 그 부담을 개인적 죄책감으로 끝내지 않고 책임과 실천으로 바꾼다. 자신의 특권을 버리는 것으로 만족하는 것이 아니라 “그 특권을 사용하여 특권 자체를 폐지한다”는 역설이다.

이 때문에 이 자료는 단순한 가자전쟁 인터뷰보다 훨씬 넓은 의미를 갖는다. 그것은 한 이스라엘 유대인 지식인이 자신이 태어난 국가와 사회를 외부에서 비난하는 이야기가 아니라, 자신 역시 그 구조의 산물임을 인정하면서 “나는 그 안에서 무엇을 할 것인가”를 묻는 자기비판의 기록이다. 그리고 와이즈만에게 그 대답은 건축이다. 건축이 권력의 흔적을 숨기는 수단이었다면, 그는 바로 그 건축적 지식을 뒤집어 폭력의 흔적을 읽고 증거로 만드는 일을 자신의 삶의 작업으로 삼는다. 그런 의미에서 <Forensic Architecture>는 그의 정치적 견해보다도 더 중요한 성취일 수 있다. 주장에 동의하든 동의하지 않든, 국가폭력을 추상적 이념이 아니라 “땅·집·도로·토양·폐허”라는 구체적인 증거를 통해 보도록 만든다는 점에서 그의 작업은 이스라엘–팔레스타인 문제를 바라보는 독특하고 강력한 관점을 제공한다.

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Transcript

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Intro

0:00

this Israeli aspect of your identity. How do you grapple with it? It's a burden. I was born into

0:06

a burden that you were born into. It's a burden. It's my burden. It's my life burden. I prefer to refer to

0:13

Palestine as Palestine because you could be a Jewish Palestinian. You were a Jewish Palestinian

0:20

before the um establishment of the state of Israel. As the book progresses, you

0:26

know, becomes more and more and more and more violent. [music] uh and it ends with this uh atrocious pit of humanity.

0:34

the the things that I I would not imagine that I would see in my lifetime

0:40

and I would not imagine that I would see not only that I would not see in my lifetime that I would see people that uh

0:46

I grew up with environment society I grew up in um

0:52

conducting such inhumane actions to as I said to the people that

0:59

matter most to me and this made Zionist agrarian Ian planners [music] that is

1:06

agricultural planners designed the ethnic cleansing of Palestine according

1:11

to the best soils that Zionist um movement at the time very agrarian

1:17

itself would cultivate. Do you still believe in accountability given the moment we're in today?

1:24

I believe more in accountability and I tell you why. I'll tell you why.

1:30

There's something that really fascinates me about Ya Wisman. He's a leading architect, author, and the founder of

1:35

Forensic Architecture, a research agency that uses architectural evidence to investigate war crimes and human rights

1:42

abuses around the world. Most recently, its work has produced some of the most detailed evidence submitted to the ICJ

1:50

in South Africa's Gaza genocide case against Israel. So today I wanted to speak to him about the founding of

1:56

forensic architecture, his latest book on grounding which traces the destruction of Gaza back to the neckb

2:02

1948 and also about how he holds all of this against his own Israeli identity.

2:09

And that's why I'm here at Goldsmith at the University of London to speak to him. So let's get into it. My name is

2:14

Muhammad Hashim and this is Real Talk. Hey Muhammad, here there you are.

2:20

Yeah, waiting for you. Man, this is convenient. Yeah. Did you find it easily?

2:25

Good to see you as well. You see, I have your book and I have all the notes cuz authors, you know, when I come with

2:31

the book, authors want to make sure I took notes and Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to examine you page by page. Page by page.

2:39

Oh, this is going to be fun. Yes. [laughter] Oh, it's so it's so nice to see you as well. Thank you so much for

2:44

coming on Real Talk. You were saying, so your Arabic is quite good, huh? Well, I'm learning a little bit. Uh I

2:51

have many Palestinian colleagues here and um yeah so working together is is an

2:58

is is beautiful anyway but it also allows me to study some Arabic. Yeah.

3:04

Well there's so there are so many basin. We're going to speak more than Yeah. In Arabic. Okay.

3:10

I'm going to try I'll try I'll throw in a couple words. I understand. [laughter] Yeah. Um no first off. Yeah. Thank you so much

3:16

for coming on real I mean how how are you feeling? How are you at this stage in your career?

3:23

How are you reflecting on it especially in light of you know you releasing this book obviously you're the you know you

3:30

you've co-founded forensic architecture so it's like I don't know I feel like

3:36

forensic architecture emerged out of a deep engagement with the colonial facts

3:43

the design facts of Israel's occupation in 48 in ' 67 Um

3:50

and uh it is really out of a kind of an architectural research on Israeli

3:56

settler colonialism that the tools and concept of forensic architecture started

4:01

to evolve. And now I feel with the genocide that erupted in Gaza in 2023

4:09

that I am back kind of where I'm started. If if you if you know my my

4:15

where you started. Yeah. uh to a certain extent uh my first not my first first book but my first

4:22

very well-known book hollow land y that was more about the west bank that was more about the west bank and

4:27

it's called the architecture of Israel's occupation this book is called the or

4:32

subtitle the architecture of genocide and I'm reflecting on this 20 years

4:38

between those two books what has happened what has happened to Palestine

4:44

in that time um what has happened to um you know

4:50

political changes in the world, media changes in the world, modes of investigation, what we've built here.

4:57

I'm also reflecting not with a lot of hope because I feel like you know been

5:03

working at it more than 20 years almost 30 years on on the architecture and Israeli

5:09

colonization and things are just getting more and more heartbreaking more and more difficult. Yeah, of course. Um, and

Growing up in Haifa

5:15

but the key word here is architecture, right? And I think for viewers who may

5:20

not have thought about this, why is architecture such an important center

5:25

point for you? Yeah. Because you were talking about how you you feel like you're coming full circle, but you when you started, at least when

5:32

you I believe when you were a student back in Israel, you did a a cardography of of the West

5:38

Bank. This is before Google Maps. This is before any kind of uh uh digital mapping I suppose.

5:44

So why why is architecture here important? Because this book it I mean it's called ungrounding.

5:50

It deals with buildings but it also deals with with what's been unbuilt in a way. So I I want to delve into this

5:58

the the architecture aspect of of uh your career and how uh how you center

6:04

it. So I I actually studied architecture in the UK and I always had an intuition

6:13

that architecture is more than just a design profession. It's more just more

6:19

about more than just making beautiful buildings or beautiful interiors. But

6:24

it's a system of knowledge. is system of knowledge that is very important to understand the world around us by

6:31

looking at the built reality. Looking at cities, looking at buildings actually

6:37

reveals something about the politics that those buildings reflect.

6:43

Now, having grown up in Hifa, Palestine as an Israeli child, I couldn't help by

6:52

noticing that the, you know, what came became

6:57

clear to me slowly, gradually, it's not something that you're born with,

7:02

is that architecture, the oppressive nature of Israeli architecture was

7:09

omniresent, was everywhere to be seen. If you learn how to look, if you learn

7:14

how to decode it, if you see um an Israeli settlement on the hills and you

7:21

look at red roofs, it could be seeming like, you know, a nice maybe for some

7:26

people suburban reality. But when you understand why it is

7:32

positioned there, it positioned and on occupied territory as a part of a matrix

7:38

of control whose aim is to survey and constrain Palestinian whose aim is to

7:43

colonize to take Palestinian land and to push Palestinians out of the country.

7:48

You start the minute you see it, you cannot unsee it, if you see what I Do

7:54

you remember the moment that you came to that realization that you especially in your younger years that you were like

7:59

okay there's something different here on how I view this? So you know being born in Hifa it's a very you know special city in Palestine

8:07

and because it has particularly because it has uh not all Palestinians um were

8:13

expelled. uh a small minority I think out of 70,000 um 4,000 Palestinians

8:21

survived in in in Hifa and were made Israeli citizens but there's a Palestinian presence there but there's

8:26

also an attempt to constrain uh Hifi is built on a hilltop. It was

8:32

the first experiment, Zionist experiment of building on mountains and the first

8:38

attempt for Zionist architecture, later Israeli architecture to take those kind

8:44

of controlling points uh over the valley Wadinas and Wadis where Palestinians uh

8:51

were living. So separation separating Jews for Palestinians and later Israelis

8:58

from Palestinians. uh that separation implying control in

9:04

climate constraint and um and I think a lot of the diagram of kind of having

9:09

grown in Hifa and seeing its built reality stayed with me and there's you

9:15

know there's there's all sort of things that you see you see remnants of Palestinian this you were taking note of this as a

9:21

young young I mean you're still a young man but as a younger man very young man I'm a very young man

9:26

you are a very young man but as a younger man Man, I was I started you

9:32

know it wouldn't be as articulate as I tell it to you today. Sure. Uh you know how you develop

9:38

I guess that thought like how how it was developed or how you intuition you know intuition is is

9:43

developed what what becomes natural what becomes unnatural to you.

9:49

Yeah. What become dnaturalized is a process. It's a process of life.

9:55

It's through a certain kind of practice of being in a place that you start

10:01

realizing and start asking yourself what is those ruins that one sees you know on

10:06

the road between Hifi no I mean what are those places are these really Byzantine

10:12

ruins as you're told or these actually the remnants of an entire civilization that existed in this place that is now

10:20

still alive and has been pushed as refugees uh outside and Then um then you know as

10:27

you grow up you start articulating things come into focus language is formulated around techniques is for but

10:35

it's still the same intuition. Politics is architecture. Architecture is

10:42

politics in form. Architecture is the formal manifestation of ideology and

10:47

politics. Therefore looking at architecture you can decode political processes and the rest is technique. No.

10:54

So the rest is um you know kind of a series of experiments of course. Yes. I

11:00

worked for the Palestinian Ministry of Planning when in the '9s. That's where the ctography came in. Yeah.

11:05

Yeah. I was I was you know as an Israeli student I had access to images and

11:10

photographs aerial images that Palestinians simply were not available to them. And I was collecting it and

11:17

bringing it to uh the ministry. Later after I graduated

11:22

from architecture, I went back I wrote what became the first or one of the

11:27

first reports that tried to criminalize architecture as a tool of occupation. You know, previously you would think of

It's my burden

11:35

um arch of of the violators of human rights being lawyers, police officers, military, sorry, not politicians, etc.

11:43

And we said no, it's architects uh and a crime and a human rights re going to happen on a drawing board. Then you know

11:50

I came here I was hired here. Goldmith Goldsmith famously has a very

11:56

yeah goldmith university of London has a very famous school of art very famous for humanities very politically active

12:03

radical school and the margin of London the kind of the poor sibling of London

12:09

University. Yeah, you know, it's not exactly LSC or UCI.

12:15

Um, and famously had all those really great department didn't have

12:21

architecture. So when I was hired to start it, I said yes, I want to do architecture, but architecture in a

12:27

different way. I don't want to do a design course in architecture. And I started what's called center for research architecture which uses

12:34

architectural intelligence, architectural thinking, architectural concepts to decode you know politics in

12:40

many other places and students started coming from all over from Latin America from Southeast Asia from you know here

12:47

local students who wanted to understand exactly that political aspect of

12:53

architecture and then few years later uh we started forensic architecture almost

12:59

as an experiment. experiment. What was it an experiment? I I'm going to I'm going to come to

13:04

forensic architecture because we're still going to go inside and stuff, but there's something interesting that you said that I want to unpack quicker.

13:10

At the very beginning of our conversation, you you said Hifa Palestine is where you grew up. Yeah. And that's something that I found

13:16

interesting that you said it because you know obviously when you read articles about you, you you get introduced as

13:22

British Israel and that this Israeli aspect of your identity, how do you grapple with it?

13:27

How do how do you internalize this particular aspect given everything that you've went through uh back home um and

A line of privilege

13:35

now that you're you're living in the it's a burden I was born into a burden that you were born into.

13:40

It's a burden. It's my burden. It's my life burden. I prefer to refer to

13:46

Palestine as Palestine because Palestine at least as it was as a place before

13:55

the Nakba, maybe before the advent of Zionism several decades earlier

14:02

uh was a place of many people, of many religion, of many identities, of many uh

14:09

a place of of meeting, of encounters. It was a wonderful um place where you know I mean one

14:16

doesn't need to romanticize it uh because you know those for whatever kind

14:23

of there was real politics that was under the Ottoman Empire there was you know uh I mean the history is well known

14:30

but but at least that is something that I crave for and that exists in the term

14:36

Palestine for me because you could be a Jewish Palestinian you were a Jewish Palestine Inian before the um

14:44

establishment of the state of Israel and I think that meaning of of being Palestinian is is is for me extremely

14:52

important and is the hope for decolonization in this place. So I cannot hide and I don't want to hide and

14:58

exist in my name that I you know it's a very Israeli nameal is very Israeli vitamin is very Jewish maybe the Jewish

15:05

aspect of my identity is stronger much stronger now but but you know I still

15:11

carry the Israeli pass because without it I wouldn't be able to enter back and forth and I have colleagues and work and

15:17

and and and partnership with Alhak and Ramla etc. Sure. And uh so I need to to do that.

15:24

But it's it's it's considered a for me Israeli being an Israeli is is a line of

15:31

privilege that I need to use in order to abolish my privileges. So if you see that

15:38

No, I need to ask you about this. What do you mean a line of privilege that you need to use? Israeli the the very fact very term

15:44

Israeli implies Jewish supremacy in Palestine. And you talk you one of the few personal notes that you write in

15:50

this book is that you said you had to escape a state with Jewish supremacy. I can't I can't live there in that in that elderly parents which I committed

15:59

as a child as a son as a u to uh to take care of uh or to see when I can. But um

16:08

the term Israeli as it is implying Jewish supremacy and colonialism in Palestine need to be abolished. And uh

16:16

so one of the many you know the struggle is Palestinianled now Arab

16:21

Palestinianled to uh to do that. But in as much as we Jews Jews that were born

16:28

in Palestine have a role in it is to use our privilege to undo our privileges to

16:33

fight for Yeah. to fight to to undo the superior

16:39

position that I hold now under an Israeli state in Palestine to any anyone

16:45

else to my friends to the people I like most uh in that place and that is

16:51

painful and it's paradoxical to use that passport to go to place but

16:58

in as much as I do that I use it to undo my privileges.

17:04

Wow. One more question before we go in. So this is a good opportunity to to to

17:09

ask you about this. Um a lot of Israelis who have spoken out against the state who find themselves in similar positions

17:16

to you in different fields but similar internal positions I would say. They talk about how they've basically

17:22

especially ones that have grown in grown up inside Israel they've found themselves kind of living in an alternate

17:28

universe or alternate space separate to society. they found a big space between them and and society. And when you hear

17:35

that, you think of like the images that come out of of Tel Aviv of, you know, people going to the beach or having a

17:41

nice time or enjoying life and just, you know, kilometers away there's settler uh uh you know, violence happening on the

17:47

West Bank, this possession happening on the West Bank, there's the genocide in Gaza. Um, and I I wonder if this is

17:53

something that you have also kind of thought about, if this is something that you have internalized when it comes to

17:59

viewing Israeli society and and what goes on inside of it uh with respect to

18:05

the Palestinians, you know, if it would only be in

18:11

difference, there are all sort of um

18:16

psychological mechanism that we know in history for you or indifference to

18:22

suffering, indifference to injustice. But I don't think it's only indifference. I think there's joy in it.

18:31

I think there's uh elation at the exercise of the ultimate revenge

18:41

as they see it. Revenge for what? That's because Israel has come, Israelis have arrived

18:48

in Palestine, dispossessed Palestinians, surprised that Palestinian resistance,

18:54

which is the most natural and right thing. It's the most expected thing. If

18:59

there would be no resistance, I would worry uh as an exercise of dignity, of

19:08

sovereignty. Um, so denial of of of the fact that um

19:15

any any form of agency of Palestinian and then the joy.

19:20

So it's not like somebody is in on a on a Tel Aviv beach doesn't give a about what's happening in Gaza. It's

19:27

somebody on a beach in Tel Aviv enjoying what is happening in Gaza.

19:33

That is what is um this is in a way that I experience society thinking it's not

19:40

enough thinking Israel has not killed enough Palestinians in Gaza whether it is 70

19:47

whether it's a 100,000 whether it is several hundred,000 um excess death uh that happened there

19:54

that Palestinians have no place in Palestine. It's this paradox.

20:00

Palestinians have no place in an area, in a place that they've made,

20:05

in a place that they've created, that they've inhabited. Um,

20:11

so yeah, I this is this is what I see. I see it's driven

20:18

through a certain joy um elation

20:24

that in the last 3 years almost um

20:30

whatever constraint uh existed on the desire for violence

20:39

uh actually was lifted and violence could take its full form.

20:45

at what Zionism actually wanted. So there's like there's the the the potentiality of Zion what it wants to do

20:52

all the time but felt it was held back. This tailbeck is gone and Zionist

20:59

violence and act its fantasy its primary fantasy again and again and

21:06

again in space and this is what it's not indifference it's very different than indifference

21:12

it manifests it manifests itself in in all these polls we keep seeing from Israeli society and how you know the the

21:18

overwhelming majority of the population is in support of of the government's actions in Daza

21:23

in support or thinks it's not enough and and even the those that challenge

21:30

the government, people say, "Oh, we have a problem with Israeli government." Look at the opposition of they oppose

21:36

genocide. Naftali Bennett, Naftali Bennett, a settler or so he was the head of the settler movement. He

21:42

doesn't live in a settlement, but uh you know, Lieberman a settler. I mean um

21:49

Eisen caught the commander of the army during during raids into Gaza. I mean,

21:54

what who are you talking who who who is the world kind of thinking is the new other Israel? Who are the people that

22:01

actually bombed in Gaza? Those pilots, they come from the Israeli middle class

22:06

that traditionally votes for center center left. Okay. Now, there's a bit more settlers in in high places in the

22:13

army, but that's not the place for them. Israeli army is uh the elite of the

22:18

Israeli army is really the center left. They are the people that enacted the

22:24

massacres in Gaza. They are the people that enact the massacres in Lebanon. They're the people that are in the

22:30

intelligence that uh you know create the atrocities in in Iran. These are the

22:36

people bombed in Syria and everywhere around that. That's there's no partner in in in that. And I think that it's a

Why 'Ungrounding'?

22:42

very dangerous um kind of coalition that is forming around the right because it is even more

22:51

militaristic than the right is might be messianic but the center left is

22:56

militaristic. This all comes back to people only pinpointing fixate getting fixated on

23:02

the Netanyahu government and just saying oh it's only the far right the far right is the issue in Israel whereas you know

23:08

the opposition is saying that yeah I I actually to to be to be absolutely honest I like the orthodox

23:13

Jews because I like it that they don't want to serve in the army. I like it that they want a law to um uh make them

23:21

unprosecutable for not serving in the army because I think that's a great loophole and I think uh Israeli youth

23:27

should use in order not to serve in the occupation in apartheid forces.

23:33

Well, we're going to continue the conversation. We're going to talk about the book now, but I'm we're going to go inside.

23:43

All right. And we're back. Yeah. The first question that I would ask you

23:48

about the book, and it's something that we talked briefly outside, but maybe it's a good point to to bring

23:54

up again, is that why' you choose ungrounding as the title? Why not ethnic

23:59

cleansing? Why not doicide? There's there's more to this title, isn't there?

The soil, the wadi, and the breadbasket

24:05

Ungrounding. It's not really a word in English, is it? I mean it's a maybe you can say

24:12

ungrounded in uh in English but like in it's an it's a kind of narism I try to

24:18

create um because the book is dealing with ground

24:24

exactly and the book is dealing with landscape and ecology and you'd go like what the

24:29

hell why when so much human misery really

24:34

unescribable in the history of Zionist and Israeli Settler colonialism we talk

24:40

about the ground is almost like an escape. Why would you talk about the environmental impact? Yeah. And who can even think about

24:50

Gaza Strip? That that area that was carved out of the southwestern coast of Palestine as having at all

24:58

an environmental dimension and ecology. It's so overbuilt,

25:03

full of you know the great city centers but also sea of concrete and corrugated

25:09

steel and um you don't really think about the environment but the argument of this

25:15

book is that in order to understand Zionist settler colonialism particularly in this part

25:22

you need to look at the interaction between the environment the climate the

25:27

soil water condition and how the particular um physical reality is

25:34

formed. So let's start with the most basic thing about the southwestern coast

25:40

of Palestine. It's an area that for generation for millennia was understood

25:48

as the threshold of the desert. Right? I mean this is really the border between

25:53

Egypt and Palestine is the end of the Sinai desert and the beginning of the cultivation of fields. That's why the

26:00

border was actually formed between in different periods in different places but between Rafa where today Rafa is

26:07

today is the border between Palestine and Egypt and and Wadi Raza is the um

26:12

ancient Gaza no the the the Gaza this is really the between those two in the 30

26:19

kilometers between the Wadira Raza and Rafa the desert falls if you think about

26:25

the north part of Gaza it is very water rich almost 500 100 millm rain per year.

26:30

At the very south of Gaza, it's 200 mm rain per we talking about 40 kilometers. So something is radically different

26:37

between the north and the south. It's Gaza is also, you know, 7 to 10

26:42

kilometers wide. But something is radically different between the east and the west. Radically different almost in

26:49

opposition. The east of Gaza is where the fertile soil that drain down from

26:56

the southern west bank from Hebrron area are deposited. This extremely fertile

27:03

soil. The west part of Gaza is sand that is coming through the Nile. It's Nile sand

27:10

that is trafficked from East Africa all the way through the Mediterranean pile

27:15

millions of cubic meters every year onto the coast. In winters the winter storm

27:22

raises the sand from the sea and pushes it eastwards. At the same time mud

27:30

fertile mud is coming from the west from the east towards the west. So those two

27:35

kind of soil crash against each other in a massive tectonic kind of uh traffic

27:42

accident if you like that form life in this part. Agriculture

27:48

exists in the east uh sand in the west. Uh fertility against aridness

27:57

rain against the desert and the genocide actually mobilized that matrix. mobilize

28:04

them. Mobilize. When you say mobilize, mobilize them. You know, when we we began to call um

28:12

the Israeli assault on Gaza, it started October 7th after the Hamas attack. Uh

28:19

we started referring to it as genocide after the 13th of October 2023 because

28:24

that day the north of Gaza received a

28:29

apocalyptic evacuation order. unheard of. Everybody that lives in Gaza City,

28:35

everybody that lives in the north of Gaza, Baha, Betanon, Jibalia, Gaza City,

28:41

Al-Shhati refugee camp, all those areas needed had 24 hours,

28:47

the so-called safe zones. Yeah. to

28:52

how do you evacuate a modern city in 24 hours when you have so many patients

28:57

when you have so many people who special needs of which have you have so many people that live in a place and don't

29:02

want uh to live yes so Israel created a curtain of fire bombed it from the north

29:09

to the south and you know in in what was the most extreme bombing campaign that

29:14

has happened but something was really occurring to me at the beginning of the

29:20

genocide at the at the fall of that genocidal statement, right? I'm not talking about the the the

29:27

statement of intent of Israeli general talking about human animals and all that, but I'm talking about the movement

29:33

south of Wadi Gaza. Is that the genocidal moment in our determination when the genocide began in Gaza at this

29:39

moment was articulated by a natural element wadza.

29:46

So nobody that lived in Gaza or few people that don't really knew even that

29:51

there is something like wadi raza that there is a wadi there wadi raza no you it's not a famous wadi in Palestine

30:00

but uh and then I started to be interested in the history of wadi raza

30:05

and discovered enormous amount of things because the wadi firstly connects

30:14

the west and east of Palestine time the Wii connects the town of Gaza that at

30:19

the time was under Ottoman um you know empire

30:26

with Bir Sabah and with Hal with Hebron right that was along you know the valley

30:34

begins in Hebron and goes all the way to Gaza it is a huge draining basin along

30:42

which there's multiple tributaries and it is along that wadi that the

30:47

fertile soil is eroding eroding into Gaza. And in this Wadi lived uh

30:54

Palestinian farmers um was cultivating enormous amount of wheat and barley and

31:00

they were these farmers of Wadi Raza where Bedin Palestine from the Azme from

31:05

the Tabin tribe from Anjar etc. Is this what you talked about in 1948 when when you you talk about basically

31:13

um the Palestinian farmers in in that area were basically providing the the

31:19

bread basket for the Gaza envelope and then the necba happened and then they were cut off from their land.

31:25

This is Yeah. So so the the Palestinian bedwing farmers of this part provided enormous

31:32

amount of barley for the British beer industry. So in the middle of the 19th

31:38

century pubs became a kind of an institution in in British society. you

31:44

know, industrial revolution, the workers needed entertainment. You know, Britain needed an enormous

31:49

amount of beer. The British Empire needed enormous amount of beer. They were really guzzling uh barley and the

31:58

best barley uh for beer grew up in this part. So even under the Ottoman Empire,

32:03

the Bedin Palestinian farmers were exporting to Liverpool

32:08

um feeding the the beer industry there. Interestingly, the prohibition period in in in America

32:16

in the 1920s created enormous amount of available Bali from from the Mojave Desert,

32:24

California and uh the price of Bali collapsed. The air the economy of the area kind of

32:30

suffered and the area never recovered. And this made Zionist agrarian planners

32:37

that is agricultural planners and I'm talking about it in a book particularly person

32:43

called Isal Vit designed the ethnic cleansing of Palestine according to the best soils

32:52

that Zionist um movement at the time very agrarian itself would cultivate. So

32:58

they really coveted Wadiraza area because they knew that could feed the

33:05

country that could feed Israel that could produce enough wheat uh for the

33:10

military for society you know and until now it's the bread basket of of Israel so after the ethnic cleansing the in the

33:19

Nagba in the beginning of the Nagba or in fact at the very end in the last two months of 1948 the last heartbeat of the

33:26

Nagba of that part of the Nagba is that Naga is still ongoing is that um the

33:32

Israeli army is trying to expel the Palestinians that were stayed on the coastline between Hanunas and um and

33:40

Gaza city uh into Egypt. Israel invades the Sinai try to cut the supply line.

33:47

The minute that they cross the international border to Egypt, the US and Britain is stopping the Israeli

33:53

army. So their plan to fully cleanse the southwestern coast of Palestine is

33:59

failed and um um and you know the that

34:04

part of the Nakba or 48 war ends with a beachside enclave full of refugees

34:11

200,000 refugees 80,000 original inhabitants that had to be

34:17

contained within that part nowad Raza drains into it and Zionists took

34:24

those soils from which the Bedu and Palestinian farmers were expelled.

34:29

grab that soil and immediately because they were so fertile build a number of kibbuting

34:36

on that Wadi Gaza basin to close off the Gaza strips so that the

34:42

people the refugees now the Palestinians that lived in the northern Nakab and in

34:48

the all the way to the coast of Yafa would not return home. They had to

34:53

encounter rings of Israeli agrarian settlements that were designed like

34:58

military fortification basically. But you don't understand that if you don't

35:03

understand soil and water. You don't understand if you don't understand that the desert was always a horizon of

35:10

expulsion. Um and think about the desert and expulsion in the history of genocide.

35:17

The Herrera genocide 1904 to 1908. German Imperial Army in what is now

35:24

Namibia, then Southwest Africa kills the Herrera people by sending them from the

35:30

um water-rich part of Namibia onto the Kalahari desert. The desert creates the

35:36

genocide. The killing is mainly from dehydration and [snorts] famine over there. The Armenian genocide. Armenian

35:43

Christians from Anatolia driven by the Otto late Ottoman Empire into the great Syrian desert. The Syrian desert

35:50

finishes people off. The desert is part of a genocidal imagination. That is the

35:56

environment is part of the genocidal imagination. The fertile soil are part

A destruction that erases itself

36:01

of the colonial imagination. This is where you'd build your agrarian settlements. This where you'd amplify

36:07

agricultural production as a way to contain people inside. So soil

36:14

is to understand that you need to understand soil and then to understand

36:19

what happened during the Gaza genocide began in 2023

36:24

you need to see where Palestinian ended up. So they were expelled from the east from the which I said is the

36:31

agricultural rich area where the fertile soda are into the sandunes in the west and from the north into the rain poor

36:39

south. I there is a ecological logic in the destruction machine. The ecology is

36:46

being weaponized into a murderous machine that that is there to finish off

36:52

Palestinian life in this part and to you know get rid of uh Palestinians there.

36:59

adding adding to that as well because the the the land aspect the soil aspect

37:04

that's just one factor you know that goes into the title ungrounded because you there's the there's also the

37:12

argument that you're making is that the evidence shows that this ungrounding is

37:18

basically erasing any kind of evidence of

37:23

buildings of livelihood. It's more than just killing people. It's it goes beyond that which is where the

37:30

title comes from. Yeah. So and grounding really is a different kind of destruction. Look, you

37:36

know, I mean you've been here, you visited the office after this.

37:41

We're working in dozens of places worldwide. We have a dozen offices around the world including Mexico and

37:46

Bogotaa and Istanbul and of course Ramala in Palestine, many other places. We we we research many conflicts and

37:53

I've never seen a kind of destruction like I've seen in Gaza. never

37:58

what you see you know I don't know Syrian civil war Russian bombing of

38:04

hospital you see that but you see buildings being targeted and maybe there's you know the city ends up like a

38:11

a mouth with missing teeth in it but you see where was a road where was that it's

38:16

not that the essence not the cities turn into a desert um but what we've seen in Gaza is a type

38:23

of destruction that even erases the traces of destruction That's what I call ungrounding when you can come back and

38:30

not know where your house was. And in fact, that became a type of torture where Palestinian prisoners were brought

38:36

back into a place if they were from Jibalia, they were brought into dunes

38:41

landscape, moon, a moonscape area which the earth was turned and it was piled

38:49

into a landscape into a landscape. We're saying this is where your home is. and the panic that comes from the breaking

38:56

of the relation between an individual and their environment uh that seeks to break that that

39:04

connection between an individual of and and environment is what Zionist is trying to do to Palestinians because

39:10

that's how they can expel them because Palestinian rooted in place they're rooted in the memory of place they're

39:17

rooted in physicality of space the life is if you when when the Israeli

When does a genocide begin?

39:23

government is trying to break that relation. Uh they're trying to break the

39:28

nation. And from the evidence that you've seen, I the evidence that you present as well,

39:34

this is all intentional, isn't it? The is there is there any element of coincidence here about this?

39:42

Yeah. So, you know, Israel is saying, well, we had to destroy this because

39:47

there was resistance over here or we had to destroy that part because the tunnel, but yeah, that would produce a different

39:54

kind of destruction. Not that it's justified, but it would produce a sporadic random destruction here or

40:00

there. But what we see is a systematic desertification, a systematic

40:05

ungrounding of every foundation of life within Gaza. uh the creation of

40:13

unlivable zones um that are carpet and and unified. So

40:18

what is it about this tunnel or that tunnel or this unit of the resistance

40:24

force or there that can justify it? This is an attempt to destroy Palestinian

40:30

life in the southwestern coast of Palestine and later you know I mean this like uh aspects of the genocide are

40:37

unfolding in in in the West Bank and 48 itself. Now you know the minute that you

40:43

started calling it genocide also you see you know the question is when does the genocide begin? You know, I mean, I I

40:49

told you that we started to call it genocide on the 13th of October, but like the minute that um that it happens,

40:57

everything that had happened before becomes element in the culmination of

41:03

this towards genocide. It turns the Nakba into genocide. It turns the ethnic

41:10

cleansing of the Nakab into genocide. It turns um the the destruction of

41:15

Palestian life in Jerusalem isolated. It's no longer an icy. Yeah. It is connected in with patterns

41:21

into the longer history of um uh of that part and everything becomes corroorbit

41:29

corroborative uh evidence for the fact that what we're seeing is genocide.

41:34

What was this book to you? Yeah. Was it was it some sort of therapy? That was my question. Was it

41:40

some sort of way to deal with trauma, let's say, or an escape? Yeah. And what's therapy? What do you mean? was a you know I don't want to

41:50

make you know speak about myself in the in in in a way that

41:55

um kind of foreground my emotions or

42:01

mental difficulty when when so much misery is being produced continuously

42:08

um you know between me and myself it was enormously difficult um It's it just

42:16

it's like somebody's like kicking you in the gut and you know sometimes you get kicked in the gut and then like you lie

42:22

on the floor and it passes but it's like continuous uh the pain was unbearable. The

42:32

experiencing of loss through very close colleagues in forensic architecture who

42:38

come from Gaza. You talk about some of that in the book as well. um people that we knew in Gaza that were

42:46

um killed. This is unbearable. During the day, I

42:53

had to work in a FA. I have a day job. I have younger uh colleagues. They're not

42:59

students. They're all, you know, professionals, but you know, they're younger and I have to kind of hold it

43:05

together. And um the nights became haunted um by recurring bursts of uh

43:15

repressed memory. It's almost like 20 years of work um around the world

43:22

there's so many of the last moments of people's lives that you're experiencing.

43:28

No. And uh cuz you know my colleagues in in in Mexico are working on somebody and

43:34

so usually you see somebody being murdered, killed, you see the last seconds of so many people's life and and

43:42

when when when Gaza the attack on Gaza began. It's almost like all of that just

43:48

reoccurred and started haunting my nights like all those people started circulating

43:54

uh in there. I felt ah you know for 20 years I kind of was able to hold it

44:00

together and continue work that is difficult. Um almost all my days were

44:08

just involved in looking at people's um most horrible moments

44:15

and then it just became the flood. Um, and sometimes when you are subject to

44:20

the kind of recurring burst of involuntary kind of like thought and traumatic memory, the best thing to do

44:28

is to build a timeline. [snorts] No, you need to kind of build your own sense of

44:35

time and narrative. So for me like writing about pre-NBA,

44:42

southwestern coast of Palestine, bed in life, reconstructing things with Salman Abusitta, my friend, and uh and thinking

44:50

about Alm and thinking about the other um uh farming communities there were

44:56

kind of like a a way of escape. But then of course as the as the book progresses you know becomes more and more and more

45:02

and more violent um uh and it ends with this uh atrocious

45:10

pit of humanity. the the things that I I would not imagine that I would see in my

45:15

lifetime and I would not imagine that I would see not only that I would not see in my lifetime that I would see people

45:21

that uh I grew up with an environment society I grew up in um

45:29

conducting such inhumane actions to as I said to the people that

45:36

matter most to me. So yeah, I mean good. Look, it's not about me. It's like you

45:42

you asked you asked, but you know, so I say that, but but it's important because you're you're you're the person behind this project.

45:48

So it's still I still find it an important question. I you're don't worry. I don't think you're centering yourself. I'm the one who asked the

45:55

question, so I take responsibility. But now that it's out in the world, you know, what what is your hopes for for

46:01

this book? Is it is it more about, you know, being a record? the record. You

46:07

know, I cannot, you know, if you think, you know, all

46:13

those of us committed to the liberation of Palestine, if you think that you're going to press some button that we just

46:18

have not found the right button to press and we'll press that button and poof,

46:23

you know, h we're in the long game. um and collapse the collapse of uh Zionist

46:33

supremacy supremacist violence you know side of violence in Paris will end it

46:39

will collapse it will collapse in a nonlinear way it's not going to collapse because of this or that or the South

46:44

Africa case or that it's going to collapse by putting pressure on it from all direction then it will find its line

46:51

of le resistant the crack inside would would grow and something would would do.

46:56

So I cannot think in a linear way. I wanted to contribute to the understanding and love of Palestine. And

47:03

I want to contribute my own perspective, my ability to I don't know read Hebrew,

47:09

read uh and my attention to architectural detail to environment to

47:14

add a small facet, a small aspect to enormous amount of work that

47:20

Palestinians and others are compiling on uh on this precious, beautiful place.

47:27

All right. And before I go, I mean, I I I just have a couple more questions, but I'd like to to to ask you them in the in

47:33

forensic architecture offices. The the the concluding questions to this interview. I mean, it's it's a place

47:39

that it makes so much noise internationally, and I hear it's it's it's not as big as you would imagine.

47:48

So, we're inside the uh the offices, the holies of holy, the forensic architecture. You know

47:54

there's there's a um there was this story from from inside Al Jazzer years ago that apparently when Husn Bak

48:01

visited forensic architecture no not forensic architect but when he visited Al Jazer he said I think this

48:07

was early 2000s maybe late 90s and he he looked around and he said this was at the time Alazer was a small it was

48:13

Alazer Arabic and it was quite small and he said all of this noise coming from inside this matchbox

48:19

that's what the story goes so I'm I'm I'm reminded of this story being inside the is zero. I mean, all the the impact

48:25

that forensic architecture has. You're being took No, really. I mean, especially on the journalist side, you

48:31

know, how valuable a place like this is, but it's it's quite it's quite small, is it? Well, it's there's another space like

48:38

that, but you know, we're about 25 people, mainly architects. You think it's bigger? Yeah. Some lawyers, journalists, coders,

48:45

etc. Yeah. Um we choose our cases um very well and

48:52

we mainly you know actually we don't choose our cases the ch the cases choose us

48:59

we never think oh that's an important thing to look at and then we go look at it for for us to start investigate we

49:05

need to be invited by the community by the people we don't want to enter a space of anyone's trauma uninvited

49:12

uh we always work together with the communities and we choose very well Because we want those cases that could

49:20

be politically transformative. We want those cases where the legal case where

49:25

the evidence could amplify wider political processes and could enter or

49:31

be used by political movement, social movements, etc. So, you know, this is why we work on a on the killing of Mark

49:37

Dagen. Of course, the family asked us, but Mark Dagen, you know, the the the racialized person murdered by British

Does he still believe in accountability?

49:44

police 2010 in August, in fact, uh just we just had the anniversary.

49:49

um led to the biggest protest here against police and police reform which

49:55

we hoped would be bigger um on the Grenfell Towire because it's a it's it's

50:01

a transformative event you know on the truth commission in Colombia on a genocide in Namibia

50:06

on killings of journalists in in Turkey etc and then again and again and again in

50:11

Palestine because we are embedded in the in the case in Rajab um Shireina al

50:19

um in in the West Bank. So these are these are cases from where they are kind

50:25

of points of acupuncture. You put maximum attention, maximum pressure on a

50:30

single point rather than go wide and you know widespread because you know that or you hope again

50:38

it's all hope that you know with this political pressure you can affect uh

50:43

wider processes. Let me ask you about that specifically because forensic architecture has provided lots of

50:49

evidence to the South Africa case in the ICJ.

50:54

Now given at the the point we're in right now is is how much international

51:00

the international legal system has been undermined by the United States, by Israel, by Western countries. Do you

51:07

still believe in accountability given the moment we're in today? I believe more in accountability and I tell you

51:14

why. I'll tell you why. The ICC for decades since it was

51:22

established in the uh turn of the 21st century was accused of being a court for

51:29

African states and this is what it was. All cases litigated there were against

51:36

African um perpetrators and it take a stand for whatever reason

51:42

and it brings charge against Netanyahu and Gallot and at this moment it gains its agency

51:51

and it gains its legitimacy and it's doing what it is supposed to do to

51:56

pursue justice where it is violated and you know without fear your favor and

52:03

and doing that. the fact that the US government is trying to sanction, you

52:08

know, now more and more people within the IC, the organizations Alhak um and

52:14

PCHR um that are um providing evidence to it

52:23

um you know putting sanction against Franchesca Albanza for helping that

52:29

court is because it is effective. uh so you know the fact that they're

52:34

pushing if they are not screaming we are not working right so uh that is that is

52:42

the principle it has become a threat international law the genocide

52:48

convention have become a threat to Jewish supremacy in Palestine to American hedgemony in the world at this

52:55

moment they uh they do everything that they can to cartail it means law is a

53:01

battle battlefield now it's one of the most important battlefield in the protection of Palestinian and the

53:07

defense of Palestinian right in the liberation of Palestine I even say so

53:13

you know the fact that they're pushing back it's not like oh they're pushing back I'm moving you know because they're sanctioning our partners uh so so we'll

53:20

come we'll we'll raise our hand there are problems there are problems uh because despite the arrest warrant well

53:28

Netanyahu is not walking around Europe which is great Well, think about it. He's not.

53:33

But he's using the airspace. He's flying through. He's flying through. Yes, it's it's imperfect. Um the provisionary measures

53:41

rendered in the ICJ in the case that we work on have not had effect on the ground at all

53:48

on on Palestinian lives. However, it has empowered the social movement. So the

53:54

term stop the genocide the use of the term genocide it's it the fact it's energized that case has done important

54:02

political work at that moment now it's it's entering another phase to it so I

54:10

think we must insist you know when before the you know who knew the name of

54:16

any UN special reporter before Franchescan was there no I mean it was like kind of almost bureaucratic

54:22

positions And now it becomes a battlefield. And it's to the great, you know, credit of

54:29

Franchesca and other friends, to the great credit of Alhak, PCHR, Al-Misan

54:34

that they're putting in those requests to the uh ICC. Uh despite everything,

54:41

despite being sanctioned as terrorists, despite being sanctioned economically and doing that, this is a battle. This

54:48

is just one ground on a multi-dimensional battlefield, but it's a battleground. But you're saying it's a battlefield. So where where are you?

54:54

Where where's your team in this battlefield? You what what keeps you going? Because you you are you you also

55:00

touch on a very sensitive topic which is whether or not the the work is affecting

55:06

or stopping Palestinian deaths and so far it it's not because of just the way

55:12

uh things are. So would you stop demonstrating because demonstration of stopped uh Palestinian

55:17

death? Would you stop writing about Palestine researching? I don't think we can judge it only by

55:23

that's what I'm trying to ask. Judge it only by the immediate. So it's a faith. It's a belief. It's an ongoing

55:29

work. We are piling those documents. We are going to chase every single

55:34

perpetrator who has committed or participated in the genocide in Gaza through all means will provide evidence

55:41

to get at them. Not today, not tomorrow, you know, decades to come. those people

55:47

could not join the community of human beings um free human beings circulating

What's next for Eyal?

55:55

in the world doing business traveling uh taking vacations etc. uh that Israel has

56:02

to be completely using those uh processes before and during and before

56:10

verdict and after verdict to empower the boycott and sanction of Israeli

56:16

institution. basically taking Israel beyond the pale and saying um this is

56:22

this is uh unacceptable from the perspective of humanity to allow a state

56:30

in its current form to exist and uh that

56:35

kind of thinking is becoming more and more popular and becoming more popular

56:40

with young people in the US in Europe. Why is it so? It's not out of nothing.

56:46

It's of course out of the voices of Palestinians from Gaza and from the diaspora that are reporting that and

56:52

they're friends. We are, you know, here they're Palestinians and you friends uh of Palestinians who are fighting or

56:59

doing everything that they can to change hearts and minds and do whatever

57:04

whatever little sand we have in our hand to throw its genocidal machine. If this

57:09

is by collecting evidence and law, if this is by um um other type of work that we do

57:18

that whatever we could do, we do. That's what we could do. That's what we do. Last question. What's next for you after

57:25

this book? I mean, this book is known is just it's just a moment. It's just a moment. I'm

57:32

already it's not like and and and you know as as as a person that that that writes work you know that by the time

57:38

you hold it in your hand it's been kind of written for already like at least a good eight months though uh we've been

57:46

we are still working on Gaza we are um monitoring the situation daily what is

57:52

going on uh we are also looking at the development plans the recons that the

58:01

what we the continuation of genocide by architectural means. No, the kind of all those fantasy plans and less fantasy

58:08

plans serious more serious in the sense of threatening plans that are done above Palestinian hand imposed on Palestinians

58:15

in organizing the space to create a docile and under control Gaza that should not be allowed to happen. Um we

58:24

are monitoring things in Lebanon, in Iran, in the West Bank and um our files

58:30

are, you know, piling higher and higher and higher. There's no lack of work. There's no lack of work for sure.

58:36

No, we'll keep at it as long as long as they keep at it. Well, you know what? We're going to

58:42

leave it here. Yeah. Wise men, first off, thank you so much for coming. Thank you for allowing me into the space,

58:47

giving me the time to to ask you these questions. cuz I know they're a bit tough, but I I appreciate you allowing

58:53

me to do so. It was great. Always great to speak to me. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for coming on.

58:58

Team of heroes. Team of heroes. Well, I hope you enjoyed our conversation with the Al Wiseman. There's more real talk on the way as you

59:05

know. So, all I want you to do is make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's real talk by me. And

59:10

we'll see you guys very