Gaza Tribunal Co-Chairs Jeremy Corbyn, Neve Gordon & Shahd Hammouri on U.K. Complicity in Genocide
Democracy Now!
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From London, we revisit the Gaza Tribunal, an independent, nongovernmental inquiry into the United Kingdom’s complicity in the Israeli genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. The tribunal, held nearly one year ago, was chaired by our three guests: former Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn, Israeli professor of human rights law Neve Gordon and Palestinian legal scholar Shahd Hammouri. Their new book is titled The Gaza Tribunal: Britain’s Complicity in Genocide. We discuss the recent apology from Prime Minister Andy Burnham over the Labour Party’s early support for Israel’s assault on Gaza, the United Kingdom’s crackdown on the Palestine Action protest group under counterterrorism laws, and whether British policymakers will face any accountability for participating in “one of the biggest crimes in humanity.”
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제레미 코빈, 네베 고든, 샤흐드 함무리가 참여한 <데모크라시 나우!(Democracy Now!)> 인터뷰는 가자 지구를 둘러싼 국제법적 쟁점과 영국 정부의 공모 책임을 다룬 <가자 법정(Gaza Tribunal)> 창설 회의를 집중 조명한다
<가자 법정 회의 내용 요약>
<가자 법정의 성격과 목적>: 런던에서 열린 회의는 남아프리카공화국이나 러셀 법정의 전통을 잇는 시민 주도 민중 법정이다
. 국제사법재판소(ICJ)와 국제형사재판소(ICC) 같은 공식 기구가 강대국의 거부권과 정치적 압력으로 한계를 드러내는 상황에서, 제노사이드와 전쟁범죄의 실상을 기록하고 책임을 규명하는 대안적 사법 플랫폼을 지향한다 . <영국의 법적·군사적 공모>: 패널들은 영국 정부가 F-35 전투기 핵심 부품을 포함한 무기를 이스라엘에 계속 공급하며 무기 수출 통제 의무를 위반하고 있다고 지적한다
. 키어 스타머 정권의 부분적 수출 허가 유예는 상징적 조치에 불과하며, 실질적인 공습 체계를 지원하는 군수 공급망은 유지되고 있음을 폭로한다 . <아크로티리 기지 및 정찰 지원>: 키프로스에 위치한 영국군 아크로티리 공군기지에서 수백 차례의 정보 수집 비행이 이루어져 가자 공습용 표적 데이터로 전달되었다는 점이 거론된다
. 이는 단순한 외교적 지지를 넘어 작전 정보 제공을 통한 직접적 군사 공모에 해당함을 밝힌다 . <국제법 집행력의 위기와 시민의 역할>: 국제인권법 학자들은 서구 강대국들이 자국의 동맹국에 대해 국제법 규칙을 선별적으로 적용하며 법적 보편성을 훼손하고 있다고 비판한다
. 이에 따라 법적 판결을 넘어 대중적 인식 확산, 역사적 기록 보존, 각국 노동조합 및 시민단체의 무기 선적 거부 운동 등 실질적 제재 조치로 이어져야 한다고 역설한다 .
<평론>
본 대담은 공식 사법 기구의 제도적 무기력 속에서 민중 법정이 수행해야 할 역사적·규범적 책무를 명확히 짚어낸다
특히 영국의 군사 기지와 복합 군수 체계를 실질적 범죄 행위의 연장선으로 규정함으로써, 분쟁을 단순한 중동 내부의 지역적 충돌이 아닌 제국주의적 군사 동맹의 합작품으로 재해석한 점이 돋보인다
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가자 재판 공동의장 인터뷰: 영국의 가자 전쟁 연루 책임을 어떻게 물을 것인가
— Jeremy Corbyn·Neve Gordon·Shahd Hammouri,
Democracy Now!, 2026년 8월 12일
<1,000단어 요약·평론>
이 자료는 한 권의 책 자체가 아니라, <가자 재판: 영국의 공모와 집단학살(The Gaza Tribunal: Britain’s Complicity in Genocide)>을 함께 펴낸 가자 재판 공동의장 세 사람—전 영국 노동당 대표 제러미 코빈(Jeremy Corbyn), 이스라엘 출신 인권·국제법 학자 네브 고든(Neve Gordon), 팔레스타인계 국제법 학자 샤흐드 함무리(Shahd Hammouri)—를 Democracy Now!의 에이미 굿먼이 약 40분간 인터뷰한 내용이다. 따라서 이것은 영국의 책임을 중립적으로 조사한 보고서라기보다, <영국 정부에 책임을 묻고 공식 조사를 요구하는 사람들의 논리와 증언>을 집약해 보여주는 자료로 읽어야 한다.
1. 핵심 주장: 가자는 이스라엘만의 문제가 아니라 영국의 문제이기도 하다
인터뷰의 중심 명제는 매우 분명하다.
<이스라엘이 가자에서 행한 일을 가능하게 한 정치·군사·경제적 구조 속에 영국도 들어가 있으며, 따라서 영국 정부는 단순한 방관자가 아니라 책임 당사자라는 것이다.>
가자 재판은 정부기관이나 국제재판소가 아니라 민간이 조직한 독립적인 비정부 조사기구였다. 29명의 기자, 의사, 원조활동가, 국제법 전문가, 전·현직 공무원 등의 증언을 들었으며, 공동의장들은 그 결과 영국이 무기 공급, 군사협력, 외교적 지원, 정보 공유 등을 통해 이스라엘의 가자 군사작전에 실질적으로 관여했다고 결론 내렸다고 설명한다.
이들이 문제 삼는 것은 영국 정부가 직접 폭격했느냐가 아니다. 현대 전쟁에서 책임은 무기를 투하한 국가에만 한정되지 않으며,
<누가 무기를 만들고, 부품을 공급하고, 정보를 제공하고, 외교적으로 보호하며, 경제관계를 유지했는가>
까지 물어야 한다는 것이다.
이 점이 인터뷰 전체를 관통한다.
2. 코빈: “사과”가 아니라 정책 변화가 필요하다
당시 새 총리 앤디 번햄이 노동당 정부가 가자 문제 초기에 잘못 대응했다고 사과한 데 대해 코빈은 매우 냉담하게 반응한다.
“우리가 잘못했다”는 말만으로는 사과가 되지 않는다는 것이다. 정말 정책이 바뀌었다면 영국은 이스라엘에 대한 무기 거래를 중단하고, 특히 F-35 전투기 관련 부품 공급을 끊어야 하며, 키프로스의 영국군 기지 아크로티리 사용과 정보 협력 등도 재검토해야 한다고 주장한다.
여기서 코빈의 정치철학이 분명하게 나타난다.
<정책에 대한 도덕적 유감표명과 구조적 변화는 전혀 다른 것이다.>
총리가 “과거에 충분히 하지 못했다”고 말하면서 현재의 군사·경제관계는 유지한다면, 그것은 실질적인 반성이 아니라 정치적 수사에 지나지 않는다는 주장이다.
코빈은 이라크 전쟁 뒤 칠콧 조사위원회가 설치되었던 것처럼 가자 문제에서도 정식 정부조사가 필요하다고 주장하며, 이를 위해 의원 개인 법안까지 제출했다고 설명한다. 그의 관심은 단순히 과거의 책임을 비난하는 데 있지 않고 <의사결정 과정과 책임자를 기록으로 남기는 공적 조사>를 제도화하는 데 있다.
3. Palestine Action 문제: 테러리즘과 시민불복종의 경계
인터뷰에서 상당한 비중을 차지하는 부분이 친팔레스타인 직접행동 단체 <Palestine Action>에 대한 영국 정부의 대응이다.
고든과 코빈은 이 단체가 이스라엘과 연결된 군수시설 등에 침입해 장비나 재산을 파손한 행동을 옹호하거나 적어도 그 동기를 고려해야 한다고 주장한다. 그러나 영국 정부가 이들을 테러조직으로 규정하고, 단체를 지지하는 팻말을 드는 행위까지 테러법의 적용 대상으로 삼으면서 수천 명이 체포되었다는 것이다.
고든이 제기하는 핵심 법적·도덕적 질문은 다음과 같다.
<더 큰 피해를 막기 위해 작은 불법행위를 했다고 주장하는 피고인에게 그 동기를 법정에서 설명할 기회조차 주지 않는 것이 정당한가?>
그는 피고인들의 행동을 단순한 재산손괴와 국가안보 차원의 테러행위 사이에서 구별해야 한다고 주장한다.
더 나아가 Palestine Action 활동가를 변호했던 유명 변호사가 재판과정에서 의뢰인의 동기를 설명하려다 법정모독 혐의를 받은 사건까지 거론하면서, 이것을 단순한 시위 진압 문제가 아니라 <법정에서 무엇을 말할 수 있는가>의 문제로 확대한다.
이 대목에서 세 공동의장은 영국 민주주의의 한계를 묻는다.
4. 공무원의 양심과 국가의 책임
인터뷰에서 가장 강한 부분 가운데 하나는 전 영국 외무부 공무원 마크 스미스(Mark Smith)의 증언이다.
그는 영국의 무기수출이 법규를 준수하는지를 검토하는 업무에 참여했으며, 보고서가 정부에 불리하게 보이지 않도록 문구와 문단 배열을 바꾸거나 중요한 정보를 생략하라는 압력을 받았다고 증언한다. 중요한 논의는 기록으로 남기지 않고 대면으로 진행되어 나중에 법원이나 공적 조사에 제출될 자료 자체가 남지 않는 경우가 있었다고도 주장한다.
이 증언은 가자 재판의 주장을 상당히 구체화한다.
문제는 단순히 “영국 정부가 이스라엘 편을 들었다”는 정치적 비판이 아니라,
<국가기관 내부에서 법적 문제를 알고 있던 사람들이 어떤 압력 속에서 정책을 집행했는가>
라는 관료제의 윤리 문제라는 것이다.
함무리는 이를 뉘른베르크 이후의 질문과 연결한다. 공무원은 상부의 명령에 따르기만 하면 되는가, 아니면 심각한 국제범죄 가능성을 인지했다면 개인적으로도 거부할 책임이 있는가?
다소 강한 비교이지만 이 질문 자체는 중요하다. 현대 국가의 폭력은 정치지도자 몇 사람이 아니라 수많은 공무원, 법률가, 기업, 기술자와 행정절차를 통해 실행되기 때문이다.
5. 가자의 병원과 “간접적 죽음”
의사 빅토리아 로즈(Victoria Rose)의 증언은 인터뷰에서 가장 감정적으로 강렬한 부분이다.
그녀는 하루 동안 18개월 된 아기를 비롯하여 화상을 입은 세 살 아이, 팔을 잃은 다섯 살 아이, 무릎을 잃은 일곱 살 아이 등 여러 어린이를 연속 수술한 경험을 증언한다. 의약품·연료·마취제 등의 부족 속에서 치료했다고 말한다.
고든은 이 증언을 개인적 비극의 나열에서 한 단계 더 끌어올린다.
병원을 공격하면 직접 폭격으로 죽는 사람뿐 아니라 이후 치료를 받지 못해 사망하는 수많은 사람이 생긴다는 것이다. 그는 이를 <reverberating harm>, 즉 파급되는 장기적 피해로 이해해야 한다고 주장한다.
따라서 개별 병원 공격마다 “그곳에 전투원이 있었는가”만을 묻는 접근으로는 전체 그림을 볼 수 없으며, 가자의 의료체계 전체가 붕괴하고 있는지를 보아야 한다는 것이다.
이것은 인터뷰의 중요한 분석적 통찰이다.
<전쟁의 피해를 개별 폭격사건의 합으로만 계산해서는 안 된다.>
상하수도·전기·병원·식량공급 같은 사회적 생존체계가 파괴될 때 그 효과는 수개월, 수년에 걸쳐 계속된다.
평론
6. 이 인터뷰의 가장 큰 장점: “공모”를 구조적으로 설명한다
이 자료의 가장 큰 장점은 <complicity, 공모 또는 연루>라는 말을 단순한 정치적 구호에 머물게 하지 않는다는 데 있다.
영국의 책임을 다음과 같은 연결망으로 제시한다.
이스라엘의 군사행동
→ 영국의 무기와 부품
→ 군사·정보 협력
→ 정부의 무기수출 허가
→ 공무원의 법률검토
→ 외교적 지원
→ 이에 항의하는 시민의 시위
→ 시위를 규제하는 경찰과 사법제도.
즉, 가자전쟁을 외국에서 벌어지는 전쟁이 아니라 <영국 국내 정치와 민주주의의 문제>로 바꿔 놓는다.
이 점에서는 상당히 설득력이 있다.
7. 그러나 “민간 재판”과 실제 법적 판결은 구별해야 한다
동시에 이 자료를 읽을 때 가장 중요한 주의점도 있다.
<Gaza Tribunal은 법원이 아니다.>
정부가 구성한 조사위원회도 아니며 국제형사재판소나 국제사법재판소도 아니다. 따라서 “영국이 집단학살에 공모했다”는 결론은 이 재판의 정치적·법률적 평가이지, 관할권 있는 법원이 확정한 판결과 동일하게 받아들일 수는 없다.
특히 <genocide>나 <complicity in genocide>는 매우 구체적인 법적 요건을 요구하는 개념이다. 정치적·도덕적으로 “이스라엘을 지원했으므로 책임이 있다”고 말하는 것과, 국제법상 “집단학살 공모의 법적 책임이 성립한다”고 입증하는 것은 별개의 단계다.
인터뷰는 이 둘 사이를 때때로 너무 쉽게 넘나든다.
8. 반대 측 논거가 거의 없다는 것도 한계다
이 인터뷰는 토론이 아니다.
이스라엘 정부나 영국 정부가 병원 공격, 무기수출, 정보공유, 군사기지 이용에 대해 제시하는 법적·군사적 반론은 거의 등장하지 않는다. Palestine Action의 직접행동이 어느 정도까지 단순 재산손괴이며 어느 지점부터 위험한 폭력행위가 되는지도 충분히 검토하지 않는다.
따라서 이 자료 하나만 읽고 사실관계나 법적 책임에 대해 최종 판단을 내리는 것은 곤란하다.
그러나 이것이 자료의 가치를 없애지는 않는다. 오히려 이 인터뷰가 가장 잘하는 일은 <최종 판결을 내리는 것>이라기보다 <정부가 대답해야 할 질문을 제기하는 것>이다.
9. 가장 중요한 대목은 오히려 민주주의에 관한 질문이다
결국 이 인터뷰가 제기하는 가장 깊은 문제는 이스라엘·팔레스타인만의 문제가 아니다.
<민주국가가 심각한 인권침해 가능성이 있는 동맹국을 지원할 때, 그 국가 내부에서 누가 그것을 막을 수 있는가?>
의회인가?
법원인가?
공무원인가?
언론인가?
시민불복종 운동인가?
그 모든 제도가 정부 정책과 같은 방향으로 움직인다면 민주주의의 자기교정 능력은 어디에서 나오는가?
이 질문 때문에 이 자료는 단순한 친팔레스타인 인터뷰 이상의 의미를 가진다.
특히 코빈이 마지막에 강조하는 “protest works”—<시위는 효과가 있다>—라는 말이 중요하다. 그는 의회가 여론보다 훨씬 뒤처져 있었지만 대규모 시위와 선거 압력이 정치인들의 언어와 정책을 조금씩 바꾸었다고 주장한다.
여기에서 이 인터뷰의 정치철학이 드러난다.
<민주주의는 선거만으로 작동하지 않으며, 시민이 계속해서 국가에 도덕적 압력을 가해야 한다.>
종합 평가
이 인터뷰를 가장 적절하게 평가한다면 <검찰 측 최종변론에 가까운 자료>라고 할 수 있다.
객관적인 판결문도 아니고 양측을 균형 있게 검토한 학술 논문도 아니다. 그러나 영국이 가자전쟁에서 단순한 관찰자가 아니라 무기·군사·정보·외교·사법제도를 통해 어떤 역할을 했는지를 하나의 연결된 구조로 보여주는 데는 상당히 강력하다.
특히 중요한 것은 책임의 개념을 넓힌 점이다.
<“누가 폭탄을 떨어뜨렸는가?”에서 “그 폭탄이 떨어질 수 있도록 누가 어떤 제도를 움직였는가?”로 질문을 바꾼다.>
반면 ‘집단학살 공모’라는 가장 중대한 법적 결론에 대해서는 이 인터뷰 자체가 충분한 증명이라고 볼 수 없다. 이를 판단하려면 영국 정부의 무기수출 관련 문서, 정보공유의 구체적 내용, 법률자문, 이스라엘 측 군사자료, 국제법 판례를 함께 검토해야 한다.
따라서 이 자료의 가장 큰 가치는 <영국이 유죄라고 입증했다>는 데 있기보다는, <영국 정부가 독립적인 공식 조사에서 답해야 할 상당히 구체적인 질문들을 제기했다>는 데 있다고 평가하는 편이 정확하다.
그리고 바로 그런 의미에서 코빈 등이 요구하는 <이라크전쟁의 칠콧 조사에 준하는 공식 공개조사>는 이 인터뷰의 주장에 동의하든 동의하지 않든 상당히 중요한 제안이다. 정부가 결백하다면 조사로 그것을 밝힐 수 있고, 문제가 있었다면 책임의 범위와 의사결정 과정을 기록할 수 있기 때문이다.
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Transcript
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0:000 secondsThis is Democracy Now! democracynow.org.
0:044 secondsI am Amy Goodman. We're broadcasting from London where tonight the documentary about Democracy Now, Steal
0:1111 secondsthe Story, Please uh will be at the Corsan Theater Bloomsbury in the Bertha Dohouse. We'll talk more about that
0:2020 secondslater. But right now, the key issue of the day. Britain's new prime minister, Andy Bernham, recently apologized for
0:2828 secondsthe Labor Party's initial stance on Gaza. On July 20th, Bernham became prime
0:3535 secondsminister, succeeding Kier Starmer, who announced his resignation in June.
0:4141 secondsBernham is Britain's seventh prime minister in a decade. He's the former mayor of Manchester. Shortly before
0:4949 secondsbecoming prime minister, Bernham posted this video online.
0:5555 secondsI know many people feel that at the start of Israel's military action in Gaza, my party didn't get it right, and
1:021 minute, 2 secondsI am sorry about that. The response has too often not been good enough. We need to do better. Yes, we have taken some
1:101 minute, 10 secondsimportant steps. These include recognizing the Palestinian state, placing sanctions on Israeli ministers, and imposing waves of sanctions on
1:191 minute, 19 secondsviolent settlers and the organizations that support them. I also fully support the restrictions on arms licenses to make sure that no British bombs or
1:281 minute, 28 secondsbullets can be used by the IDF in Gaza or in the West Bank. But let's be honest, the UK was too slow to call for
1:351 minute, 35 secondsa ceasefire, and we must now do more to strengthen our approach. Israel continues to violate the ceasefire.
1:421 minute, 42 secondsagreement, killing innocent Palestinians. We're seeing a surge in settler violence in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the continued
1:491 minute, 49 secondsexpansion of illegal settlements, displacing Palestinian communities, and Netanyahu's government is clearly attempting to make a two-state solution
1:581 minute, 58 secondsimpossible. That's why we need to do more, which includes looking at further sanctions both on those involved in the violence in Gaza, but also looking at
2:062 minutes, 6 secondsmeasures to ban trade in goods with illegal settlements. I, like many people, feel passionately about Gaza and
2:142 minutes, 14 secondsI will do everything I can to work with international partners to stop the suffering, to ensure the Israeli government adheres to international law
2:222 minutes, 22 secondsand to keep the prospect of a two-state solution alive because this is the only way to lasting peace for both Israelis and Palestinians.
2:312 minutes, 31 secondsThat was Britain's new prime minister, Andy Bernham. Last year, an independent Gaza tribunal was held here in London.
2:412 minutes, 41 secondsIt featured testimony from 29 witnesses, including journalists, aid workers, doctors, and international law experts.
2:502 minutes, 50 secondsThe tribunal concluded the British government was complicit in Israel's genocide in Gaza by authorizing
2:582 minutes, 58 secondsmilitary, economic, and political support for Israel. The tribunal was held amidst an escalating crackdown in
3:063 minutes, 6 secondsBritain targeting pro- Palestinian Activists. Since July of last year, British police have arrested over 3,000
3:163 minutes, 16 secondspeople for expressing support for the group Palestine Action. Last year, the British government declared the group to be a terrorist organization, making
3:253 minutes, 25 secondssupport for the group punishable by up to 14 years in prison. We're joined
3:313 minutes, 31 secondsright now by the Gaza Tribunals's three co-chairs. Jeremy Corbin is a member of the British Parliament who served as
3:403 minutes, 40 secondsLabor Party leader from 2015 to 2020. He has served in the British Parliament since 1983.
3:503 minutes, 50 secondsNeve Gordon is an Israeli political scientist and professor of international law and human rights at Queen Mary
3:573 minutes, 57 secondsUniversity of London. the first director of Physicians for Human Rights Israel and Shahed Hammuri is a Palestinian
4:064 minutes, 6 secondsJordanian lecturer in international law and legal theory at the University of Kent. The three have just published a
4:154 minutes, 15 secondsnew book. It's titled The Gaza Tribunal: Britain's Complicity and Genocide. We'll
4:214 minutes, 21 secondsspend the hour with them. Um MP Corbin, uh it's an honor to have you back on Democracy Now. Can you respond to the
4:304 minutes, 30 secondsnew prime minister, Andy Burnham, a man you know well over the years um and his apology? What exactly does it mean?
4:394 minutes, 39 secondsWell, it isn't really an apology. What it says is we got it wrong, which isn't quite the same thing and says we got to
4:464 minutes, 46 secondsdo better in the future. then goes on to reiterate what um we were told in
4:534 minutes, 53 secondsparliament that no weapons being sold to Israel could be used conceivably to kill
5:005 minutespeople in Gaza. Well, if that is the case, then we should cease all arms trade with Israel, and we should
5:095 minutes, 9 secondscertainly cease being a very important supplier of parts for the F-35 jets, which is still being used to bomb and
5:175 minutes, 17 secondskill people in Gaza. And so, it's not enough. It's not enough also to say we
5:245 minutes, 24 secondswill sanction settlement goods whilst at the same time not sanctioning those companies that work in and out of
5:315 minutes, 31 secondssettlements and in Israel which are supplying parts for other weapons.
5:375 minutes, 37 secondsLikewise the manufacturer weapons by Israel by Elbit systems at factories in Britain. So he hasn't gone as far as I'm
5:455 minutes, 45 secondsconcerned anything like far enough in this. And the point you made in addition is that if he is serious about a
5:545 minutes, 54 secondscomplete change of policy, if he's serious, it's a big if, then why are we
6:016 minutes, 1 secondcriminalizing people who take part in protest in Britain?
6:066 minutes, 6 secondsA number have already been convicted and face long stretches in prison. These are
6:136 minutes, 13 secondsnonviolent direct action protests. And there are also probably 2,500 to 3,000
6:216 minutes, 21 secondspeople who've been arrested for holding a placard in contravention of controvention of the terrorism act 2000
6:286 minutes, 28 secondswhich is basically labeling anyone that holds a placard up saying I support Palestine action calling them a
6:366 minutes, 36 secondsterrorist. This includes people in their 80s and even 90s retired Anglican clergy people and many others. It's an absurd
6:466 minutes, 46 secondssituation. If we are going to be serious about supporting the Palestinian people and the genocide they're still going
6:536 minutes, 53 secondsthrough, we would also stop allowing Israel to use the Royal Air Force Base in Akriteri. We'd stop the sharing of
7:007 minutessecurity information with Israel. We would isolate Israel's military actions, all of which are directed against the
7:097 minutes, 9 secondsPalestinian people. It's simply not enough. you know, just coming into London overnight, I was looking at the news and it's completely inundated with
7:187 minutes, 18 secondsthe um controversial proposal uh the plan now to release many people from prison uh to be able to fill it with
7:277 minutes, 27 secondsother people. Uh and you're talking about 3,000 people not clear they would all go to prison, but that's who we're talking about clearing the prisons for.
7:357 minutes, 35 secondsWe're talking about serious criminals being released early in order to make space for peaceful protesters who have
7:437 minutes, 43 secondssimply said it's not on their conscience any longer that they can do nothing about the killing of Palestinian people.
7:517 minutes, 51 secondsIt is an absurd situation. I do think by the way there needs to be a reform of our prison system and uh prisons should
7:597 minutes, 59 secondsbe a place of rehabilitation and education rather than solely of punishment. But then that's maybe it's a
8:068 minutes, 6 secondswider issue. But we're concentrating on this work that we did which was and it was wonderful working with Shahad and
8:148 minutes, 14 secondsNeve to do this and um and I want to talk about the tribunal but one more thing with your position as
8:218 minutes, 21 secondsMP uh you've presented a private members bill to parliament. You did that about a year ago. Now for the world they don't
8:298 minutes, 29 secondsunderstand private members bill but is this still relevant and what did you propose?
8:368 minutes, 36 secondsIt's extremely relevant and is still very relevant because the government had consistently refused to have an open
8:458 minutes, 45 secondsinquiry into the way decisions were made what information was shared in the bombardment of Gaza and the use of RAF
8:538 minutes, 53 secondsbases. I then proposed a private members bill which means it's a backbench bill by an individual MP I I myself. It got
9:039 minutes, 3 secondsthrough its first stage and so we had the bill printed and published and the details of the bill very carefully thought out and presented. It was then
9:119 minutes, 11 secondsblocked for the main debate which is when it would become uh a live issue within parliament and we expected that.
9:189 minutes, 18 secondsSo we then set up the independent tribunal which we're now talking about.
9:229 minutes, 22 secondsI've we're now into a new session of parliament because parliament each parliamentary session lasts around a year. The new session is underway. I've
9:329 minutes, 32 secondssecured a slot for the 11th of September to present the bill again and uh hopefully I can't predict for certainty what will happen. We get a debate on it.
9:449 minutes, 44 secondsBasically what we're saying is after the Iraq war, the compacity of Britain in the war crimes in Iraq became very obvious through Sir John Chilcott's
9:539 minutes, 53 secondsinquiry. We want a um another inquiry, but this time with more teeth to deal with the connance of people in
10:0110 minutes, 1 secondmisleading information, selling weapons which have been used to kill people. If the foreign office are really expecting us to believe that none of these weapons
10:1010 minutes, 10 secondsthat we're selling to Israel at the moment can be used to kill anybody in Gaza, then we need to know exactly what weapons are being sold. We don't.
10:2110 minutes, 21 secondsProfessor Ne Gordon, um you have uh are getting a number of signatures. You can
10:2810 minutes, 28 secondstell us how many an open letter to the prime minister. Can you explain what you are calling for?
10:3810 minutes, 38 secondsWe're so again the prime minister said that Britain got it wrong and we are
10:4610 minutes, 46 secondssuggesting that if it got it wrong then this shouldn't remain on the realm of discourse but should manifest itself in
10:5510 minutes, 55 secondsinto action. So, we're raising, of course, the criminalization of the Palestine Action
11:0411 minutes, 4 secondsuh uh uh activist, and we can talk a bit more about how they've been criminalized
11:1111 minutes, 11 secondsmaybe later on. And and we're we're we're we're calling to deprescribe
11:1911 minutes, 19 secondsthe group which was prescribed as a terrorist group in July 2025. if you could actually address that right now
11:2711 minutes, 27 secondsbecause I think it can be puzzling to many people around the world that these protesters are now called terrorists and
11:3511 minutes, 35 secondsthere are a handful who have been sentenced.
11:4111 minutes, 41 secondsSo there's two issues here. One is we have a group of people that decided that
11:5111 minutes, 51 secondsprotesting and calling on the government to change its actions is no longer
11:5911 minutes, 59 secondsviable in terms of bringing about change. And therefore they have decided
12:0512 minutes, 5 secondsto take direct action and to try to stop the transfer of these weapons that have
12:1312 minutes, 13 secondsbeen used to kill Palestinians in Gaza to the Israeli military to be used for
12:2112 minutes, 21 secondsthe destruction of the Gaza Strip. They have been criminalized by the British
12:2912 minutes, 29 secondsgovernment in such a way that they have been prescribed not as a radical movement, not but as an actual terrorist
12:3812 minutes, 38 secondsgroup. And if they are a terrorist group that then the sentences they will
12:4512 minutes, 45 secondsreceive for carrying out what could be really minor property offenses like uh
12:5312 minutes, 53 secondsgra writing graffiti on an airplane as a terrorist act. and anyone that supports
13:0013 minutesthem and that's the 3,000 and somewhat retired people that you mentioned can also be sentenced to jail. Now what
13:1013 minutes, 10 secondshappened the second issue is that what happened in the trials is that these
13:1713 minutes, 17 secondspeople were not allowed to explain their motivations. Now let me give you an example. Let's say someone wants to
13:2513 minutes, 25 secondsattack right here in the studio Jeremy Corbin and Shia jumps up and pushes that
13:3213 minutes, 32 secondsperson away and that person sprains their ankle and sues Shad. She is not
13:4013 minutes, 40 secondsallowed to explain in court that basically she was trying to defend Corbin from the attack. So these people
13:4913 minutes, 49 secondsthat were sentenced are not allowed to explain their motivation to prevent a much greater harm than the harm that
13:5913 minutes, 59 secondsthey carried out which was the destruction of property that is not allowed in court. And then the British
14:0614 minutes, 6 secondspeop the the the legislature also distinguished between the the the verdict and the sentencing. So the the
14:1514 minutes, 15 secondsthe the the jury did could not hear their motivations, had to decide whether they destroyed
14:2314 minutes, 23 secondssome property, decided that they did indeed destroy some property. But then instead of being tried for a criminal
14:3214 minutes, 32 secondsoffense of the destruction of property, they were tried as terrorists. So there's a separation between verdict and
14:3914 minutes, 39 secondssentencing and the judge can decide on that separation and can decide to judge them as
14:4714 minutes, 47 secondsterrorists for a crime that actually the whole court case was about the destruction of property. So I want to
14:5514 minutes, 55 secondsturn to the case of the British lawyer uh facing contempt charges over his closing speech during a trial of
15:0415 minutes, 4 secondsPalestine action activists. Uh Rajie Menan Casec is accused of misleading the jury and ignoring directions by the
15:1215 minutes, 12 secondsjudge when representing Charlotte Head, one of the four activists jailed for criminal damage after they broken into
15:2015 minutes, 20 secondsan Elbit systems weapons factory in Filton in August of 2024.
15:2515 minutes, 25 secondsAt a recent online webinar titled descent into authoritarianism,
15:3215 minutes, 32 secondsthe regime Menon KC case, legal experts spoke about the contempt of court
15:3815 minutes, 38 secondscharges being brought against Menon. At the end of the event, Menon himself
15:4515 minutes, 45 secondsspoke briefly to thank supporters and spoke about the case of the Filton 24, the activist arrest and charge for their direct action break-in at the Open
15:5315 minutes, 53 secondsSystems weapons factory. This is what he said.
15:5715 minutes, 57 secondsIt would be um remiss of me not to acknowledge um the Filton 24 um the uh incredible young people who risked everything.
16:1116 minutes, 11 secondsExcuse me. Um to speak truth to power and to do what they thought was right uh when they engaged in direct action
16:1916 minutes, 19 secondsagainst the Elbert Systems factory in Filton. It was an enormous privilege for me um to represent Charlotte Head
16:2616 minutes, 26 secondstogether with Simon and Kate. We fight on for her against the draconian sentence that she received from the very
16:3416 minutes, 34 secondsjudge who instigated the proceedings against me. Um and that battle will continue as long as it needs to continue.
16:4316 minutes, 43 secondsSo that's Rajie Menan who has been held now in contempt of court. the attorney for the Palestine Action activists. Um,
16:5116 minutes, 51 secondsuh, Israeli professor Ne Gordon. Uh, you cite him directly in this letter, open letter that scores of people have signed
17:0017 minuteson to, um, scholars and practitioners of international law. Talk about including him and what exactly you are demanding
17:0917 minutes, 9 secondsof Prime Minister Burnham in this open letter.
17:1317 minutes, 13 secondsWell, basically the judge is not allowing the defense lawyers to defend
17:2017 minutes, 20 secondstheir clients. It's not allowing to explain the context in which their
17:2717 minutes, 27 secondsactions took place and is not allowing the lawyer to do his job in this case.
17:3417 minutes, 34 secondsAnd when the lawyer tried to do his job, which is his calling, I need to the best of my effort to defend these people, he
17:4317 minutes, 43 secondswas held in contempt of court and and if it goes through, he might even be debarred. And this is one of is of the
17:5117 minutes, 51 secondsUK's major uh uh barristers and who who is well respected. And it is unheard of
17:5917 minutes, 59 secondsthis kind of attack both on the uh on on the activists that were not allowed to
18:0618 minutes, 6 secondsspeak during the trials and explain their motivations and about the defense team that were not allowed to carry
18:1518 minutes, 15 secondstheir jobs. And I don't and and so there's a whole what we see here
18:2118 minutes, 21 secondsis again this I think is is also part of the complicity of the British government
18:2818 minutes, 28 secondsbecause as it allow as it it it enhances diplomatic support inviting the
18:3618 minutes, 36 secondspresident of Israel to come to meetings here. the go the one that signed the rockets on the Gaza border that were
18:4418 minutes, 44 secondslater being uh uh uh uh um uh launched against civilians in Gaza. As it's doing
18:5318 minutes, 53 secondsthat, it is introducing new legislation that includes what we've just discussed,
19:0019 minutesbut also includes outlawing speech like from the river to the sea, antifada,
19:0819 minutes, 8 secondsuh, anti-zionism and and things like that to silence any kind of mobilization and collective
19:1619 minutes, 16 secondsaction against probably the worst crime in the 21st century. And so we're seeing
19:2319 minutes, 23 secondsthis double movement of those that have been supporting the genocide basically
19:3119 minutes, 31 secondsbeing spread a red carpet while those that take a stance and come out against
19:3819 minutes, 38 secondsit uh being criminalized. I want to bring in the third author of the new book, The Gaza Tribunal, Britain's
19:4519 minutes, 45 secondsComplicity in Genocide, Shahed Hamuri, Palestinian Jordanian lecturer in international law and legal theory at the University of Kent, served as
19:5419 minutes, 54 secondsco-chair of the Gaza Tribunal. Um along with the Israeli professor Neve Gordon
20:0120 minutes, 1 secondand the British MP Jeremy Corbin. Um thanks so much for being with us, Shahed. if you could start off by
20:0820 minutes, 8 secondstalking about the awareness within the British populace, the public, um, how their taxpayer dollars are spent. What
20:1620 minutes, 16 secondsis the awareness of Britain's relationship with Israel?
20:2020 minutes, 20 secondsSo, to begin with, let's be very clear, had it not been for the UK's material support to Israel, we could have saved tens of thousands of lives. And he was
20:2920 minutes, 29 secondsvery clear for the people who went to the street that if something were to happen by the UK's government, we're able to save those lives. So an apology
20:3720 minutes, 37 secondscoming far too late into the future is almost offensive rather than anything that would relinquish people or allow us
20:4520 minutes, 45 secondsto uh breathe. Uh so as to the British people's uh understanding of what was happening, it is indeed uh very
20:5220 minutes, 52 secondsdisturbing to see the distortion that happened through mainstream media such as the BBC, for example, where representations of Palestinians as less
21:0121 minutes, 1 secondhuman were not only normalized, but also deep fear of the other was ingrained over and over and over again. Listening
21:0921 minutes, 9 secondsto the news, it was as if one is listening to the world saying that their life and specifically their right to say
21:1621 minutes, 16 secondsno to a settler colony that has deprived us of our life for five generations now is criminalized over and over again. H
21:2521 minutes, 25 secondsand the sad thing is that that not only were the British people not allowed to know what was happening within their money with their money, but also they
21:3221 minutes, 32 secondswere not allowed to even protest it. and whoever protests it is also demonized within the media space. So, and so this
21:3921 minutes, 39 secondsis this was clearly where the edge of the so-called democratic system has reached this. We've reached the edge of
21:4621 minutes, 46 secondsthe establishment's rule and in or the establishment space where allows us to uh express our opinions in the sense
21:5421 minutes, 54 secondsthat the moment that we touch its own interests in West Asia and Israel being the main a factor of that interest in facilitating that uh that is where
22:0322 minutes, 3 secondseverything stops. That is where an autoimmune h reaction happens within the system so natural within the system that
22:1122 minutes, 11 secondsit automatically reacted by blocking out any imagination any understanding or humanization to stop this bloodshed.
22:1822 minutes, 18 secondsShah Hamuri um you've talked about um what's happened in the streets but also the suites and the government offices
22:2622 minutes, 26 secondsthat there was a kind of policy to silence and even punish civil servants who dared to speak out. So as we saw in
22:3322 minutes, 33 secondsthe testimonies that were presented in front of us, civil servants and it must be said very close to or invoking questions that were discussed in the
22:4222 minutes, 42 secondsNuremberg trials were faced with an option of you're either damned if you speak or damned if you don't in the sense that if they were to follow their
22:5022 minutes, 50 secondsown consciousness and say no against decisions that would give uh economic support to Israel and let's be clear under international law any support to
22:5922 minutes, 59 secondsIsraeli war economy not just to the settlement economy was a form of supporting the genocide and falls outside of the UK's obligations when
23:0823 minutes, 8 secondsthey try to notify that and when other civil servants try to note that sending weapons or anything of the like is
23:1523 minutes, 15 secondsindeed in violation of British Britain's own law as well as international law they are faced with a choice you either leave your job or you stay silent I
23:2423 minutes, 24 secondswanted to go to Mark Smith um he testified at the Gaza Tribunal uh he was a British foreign office who resigned in
23:3323 minutes, 33 secondsprotest over continued arm sales to Israel. This was back in August 2024.
23:3923 minutes, 39 secondsSmith was the lead official on the UK arms export licensing report which assessed whether the UK was legally
23:4723 minutes, 47 secondscompliant. He chose to only testify by voice. I want to get your response to this shahad. Uh this is some of his testimony.
23:5623 minutes, 56 secondsWhat I witnessed while working on that report was profoundly concerning.
24:0324 minutes, 3 secondsUm while I was working on the report, I was routinely change uh asked to change uh the report.
24:1324 minutes, 13 secondsUm this was not to correct mistakes uh or to ensure accuracy as would normally be the case with a civil
24:2124 minutes, 21 secondsservice um report, but I was actually asked to alter the wording um placement
24:2924 minutes, 29 secondsof paragraphs um and to emit key information so that it quote unquote sounded less
24:3824 minutes, 38 secondsbad. Um so this is absolutely counter to what we are trained to do as civil servants and it's something that I have
24:4624 minutes, 46 secondsnever witnessed in my career uh either prior to or following uh working on this
24:5524 minutes, 55 secondsparticular report. It was also fully understood in the department that we
25:0225 minutes, 2 secondswould have these conversations in person and not want those conversations to be
25:0925 minutes, 9 secondsrequested by a court. Um, so for anybody listening here, there have been hundreds, if not thousands of
25:1725 minutes, 17 secondsconversations within the walls of the foreign office on the most controversial aspects of our arms sales policy, which
25:2625 minutes, 26 secondswill never be seen by the public, which will never be put into a court, um, even a closed court because we have them in person.
25:3725 minutes, 37 secondsSo that was Mark Smith testifying at the Gaza Tribunal last year in London, chaired by our three guests today. He
25:4625 minutes, 46 secondswas a British foreign office who resigned in protest. And this is Fran Heathcoat, a British trade unionist and
25:5325 minutes, 53 secondsgeneral secretary of the public and commercial services union.
25:5825 minutes, 58 secondsWe further believe that across some areas in the civil service and its related areas, the civil service code is being used to prevent our members
26:0626 minutes, 6 secondsengaging in inactivity to help the people of Gaza.
26:1126 minutes, 11 secondsFran Heath Coat, British trade unionist um Mark Smith uh Shahed Hammoodi uh talk about the significance of the this
26:2026 minutes, 20 secondstestimony and also where this tribunal led. So indeed so as I said when we when we uh we teach students about the
26:2826 minutes, 28 secondsNorberg trials we ask them how were civil servants that were put in such positions what is their moral of responsibility. What we have with Mark
26:3526 minutes, 35 secondsMark Smith is someone who is clear that signing this paper is to have not only blood on his hand but to be complicit in
26:4326 minutes, 43 secondsthe most atrocious crimes of which we cannot speak. And the fact that we see this uh this reaction at all levels of
26:5026 minutes, 50 secondsthe UK's government tells us how deeply ingrained is the establishment in establishing the borders of how far can British uh rule of law as well as
26:5926 minutes, 59 secondsBritish democracy go and within spaces where are not allowed to speak uh to speak when you see these things. These
27:0727 minutes, 7 secondspeople were deprived of their human rights to say no to being complicit in a genocide. And indeed this is one of the most dangerous h red lights that we
27:1627 minutes, 16 secondscould see in any government whereby it is absolutely normalized to hide away one of the biggest crimes in humanity
27:2427 minutes, 24 secondseven if it's just through signing papers and saying yes to cooperation with the Israeli military.
27:3027 minutes, 30 secondsThis is democracyow democracynow.org the Warren Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman.
27:3627 minutes, 36 secondsare broadcasting from London today and tomorrow on Thursday. As we go back to the Gaza Tribunal, one of the witnesses was plastic surgeon Dr. Victoria Rose.
27:4827 minutes, 48 secondsShe first joined Missions to Gaza through the charity Ideals in 2019 where she contributed to the development and
27:5727 minutes, 57 secondstraining of limb reconstruction specialists in Gaza. Since 2024, she's undertaken multiple humanitarian
28:0528 minutes, 5 secondsmissions in Gaza. In her testimony, she spoke about operating on children each and every day and shared her operating
28:1228 minutes, 12 secondshistory from one single day in May of 2025.
28:1828 minutes, 18 secondsI looked at one day's operating in May and we operated on six children.
28:2628 minutes, 26 secondsWe started with an 18month-old child.
28:3028 minutes, 30 secondsThat's not the youngest child I treated with a 15% burn. We then went on to a
28:3828 minutes, 38 secondsthree-year-old boy with a 35% burn. In the UK, that is a 5050 survival burn and
28:4728 minutes, 47 secondsit would go to probably one of only two units that would be able to look after that child. I then operated on a
28:5628 minutes, 56 seconds5-year-old girl who had had her arm blown off. She was down for an amputation, but we managed to salvage
29:0329 minutes, 3 secondshalf of her hand and most of her forearm and shoulder. I then operated on her sister whilst my colleagues operated on
29:1229 minutes, 12 secondsher mother in the theater next door. Her sister had had her left cheek and shoulder blown off. I then operated on a
29:2029 minutes, 20 secondsseven-year old girl who had had her knee blown off. And my final case was a
29:2729 minutes, 27 seconds13year-old boy who had had his left ankle blown off and his brother was being operated in the theater next door.
29:3829 minutes, 38 secondsDr. Victoria Rose testifying at the Gaza Tribunal in London last year. Again, we are joined by the co-chairs of the Gaza
29:4629 minutes, 46 secondsTribunal, Shahed Hummuri, uh, who teaches at the University of Kent, uh, Neve Gordon, uh, here in London, a
29:5429 minutes, 54 secondsprofessor, and British MP Jeremy Corbin, who ended up co-authoring a book together, the Gaza Tribunal: Britain's Complicity and Genocide. Um,
30:0330 minutes, 3 seconds[clears throat]
30:0430 minutes, 4 secondsNe Gordon, uh, we just listened to what happened in a hospital. Uh, you are formerly the first director of
30:1130 minutes, 11 secondsPhysicians for Human Rights, Israel. I'm wondering if you can talk about um Israel's systematic attacks on hospitals
30:2030 minutes, 20 secondsand health care workers in Gaza, not to mention journalists right now. Um and
30:2630 minutes, 26 secondsalso how um how Britain has dealt with the issue
30:3430 minutes, 34 secondsof international law. The UK questioning the ICC's jurisdiction to protect Israel.
30:4330 minutes, 43 secondsSo we heard from uh Victoria Rose about one day operating on children. In the
30:5130 minutes, 51 secondstestimony itself, we also heard about the conditions under which he was operating. And these are conditions
30:5830 minutes, 58 secondswhere all the hospitals, all 36 hospitals in the Gaza Strip were bombed, a lot of them damaged, but many of them
31:0731 minutes, 7 secondscompletely destroyed. And where there was no med, Israel did not allow me access to medicine, did not allow access
31:1631 minutes, 16 secondsto fuel that you need for electricity to run these hospitals and basically systematically and deliberately
31:2431 minutes, 24 secondsdecimated the medical field in the Gaza Strip. And I would say we need the the
31:3231 minutes, 32 secondslistener needs to understand that when you're attacking a hospital that serves a large population, it's not only the
31:3931 minutes, 39 secondsharm that is generated through the immediate attack, but it is the reverberating harm. And that
31:4731 minutes, 47 secondsreverberating harm, I would suggest, is equal to a weapons of mass destruction because the amount of people that are
31:5531 minutes, 55 secondsgoing to be killed from these attacks is today unknown, but it's in thousands.
32:0132 minutes, 1 secondAnd Dr. Abu Safia, the head of the Kameladwan Hospital in Gaza, still imprisoned.
32:0632 minutes, 6 secondsWe have 1,700 uh health workers that were killed in
32:1232 minutes, 12 secondsthe Gaza Strip. Um and and that is about three times the
32:2032 minutes, 20 secondsmore than the level of civilians. So you're three times more likely to be killed in the Gaza Strip if you're a
32:2832 minutes, 28 secondshealth worker than if you are a civilian. And then we have scores of doctors and health care workers that
32:3632 minutes, 36 secondswere disappeared or taken into Israeli jails. And we know that in these jails they have been tortured and some of them
32:4432 minutes, 44 secondshave been raped. So there's a systematic assault on the lifesaving and life sustaining situation in the Gaza Strip.
32:5532 minutes, 55 secondsAnd the English government is is instead of looking at this pattern of assault where we have over 900
33:0333 minutes, 3 secondsattacks on medical units in Gaza, instead of looking at it and seeing there's a pattern here, it's systematic
33:1133 minutes, 11 secondsand deliberate is looking at each and every single attack and saying maybe there was a reason to attack it because
33:2033 minutes, 20 secondsmaybe combatants were hiding in the hospitals and what we see is only trees and we've lost sight of the forest and
33:2833 minutes, 28 secondsthe forest is the destruction of the health system in Gaza.
33:3233 minutes, 32 secondsBritish MP Jeremy Corbin in the United States the majority of the uh those who voted in the Democratic caucus, we have
33:4033 minutes, 40 secondsnot seen this before. People like Congress member Rohan and others voted to end military support for Israel. um
33:4833 minutes, 48 secondstalk about the shift if there is one in the British Parliament and also coming back to your new um prime minister Andy
33:5733 minutes, 57 secondsBurnham where he was on this and the space you feel um uh protest play uh
34:0534 minutes, 5 secondswhat what role protest plays in moving this forward. I want to say a big thank you to all those in the United States that have protested and marched for
34:1434 minutes, 14 secondsGaza, marched for the Palestinian people because I know the hardship they faced and I know the number of students that
34:2234 minutes, 22 secondsuh lost positions because of the encampments and so much else. So I want to say a big thank you to all our friends in the US for what they've done
34:2934 minutes, 29 secondsand continue to do on this and it's clearly making a difference. Look at the election results in the Democrat primaries. Look at the change that's happening
34:3834 minutes, 38 secondsin Britain. It's been a more complicated process because the British government's relationship with Israel is incredibly
34:4534 minutes, 45 secondsclose. It is security cooperation and there is a huge Israeli influence on the British political system and uh it's
34:5434 minutes, 54 secondsvery hard to hit back against that in support of the Palestinian people. But nevertheless, we've had enormous demonstrations in Britain. The biggest
35:0235 minutes, 2 secondswas almost a million who marched on the on the US embassy. And I think my estimation is almost 2 million people in Britain have done something in support
35:1135 minutes, 11 secondsof the Palestinian cause. Parliament is way behind the curve in all this, but it's beginning to change. Way behind the
35:1835 minutes, 18 secondscurve, but change is happening before my very eyes. One night there was a maneuver in Parliament to prevent a vote on a ceasefire.
35:2735 minutes, 27 secondsThe reaction, the public reaction was so huge on that a week later you couldn't move for Labour MPs using the word
35:3535 minutes, 35 secondsceasefire in their speeches in Parliament. Things have changed.
35:3935 minutes, 39 secondsNow Andy Burnham said what he said. I think it's inadequate. I think it's very late. I think it's very unclear. But
35:4835 minutes, 48 secondsnevertheless, he only said that for a reason. And that was the reason was the electoral push back against the Labour Party because of its complicit in
35:5635 minutes, 56 secondsgenocide and because of the findings of what this book is about. And so my message is this protest works. It can be
36:0536 minutes, 5 secondsvery frustrating going on a march. You think what have I done? I've just been on a march. Whereas the Palestinian people are losing everything as a
36:1236 minutes, 12 secondsresult. It's if it's all we can do. It's an act of solidarity. It does change things. But the points that Ne was making, the points that Jahad was
36:2136 minutes, 21 secondsmaking, Palestinian kids are dying of starvation, of dehydration, of
36:2836 minutes, 28 secondsoperations that can't succeed because of a lack of anesthetic and even antiseptic. And within a few kilometers,
36:3636 minutes, 36 secondseverything is available. This is a human-made murder of Palestinian children. It is an act of genocide.
36:4436 minutes, 44 secondsProtest, please do all you can. Our book is part of that protest and we sent copies to Andy Burnham and to Ed
36:5236 minutes, 52 secondsMilliband and invited them to meet us to discuss the findings of our tribunal and have the courage to set up a government
36:5936 minutes, 59 secondssponsored public inquiry into Britain's complicity.
37:0337 minutes, 3 secondsAnd Shahed Muri um from Palestine to Iran, your final thoughts. Well, they're
37:1037 minutes, 10 secondsall a very they're all the same part of what needs to happen. And in the sense if the UK regrets its position in relation to Palestine, then the UK needs
37:1837 minutes, 18 secondsto stop supporting uh the US in its attacks against Israel, further destabilization as well as taking it away against the sovereignty of nations
37:2737 minutes, 27 secondswithin West Asia. The US, UK should have never been in West Asia. It's an area for its people, not for the plunder and
37:3437 minutes, 34 secondsexploitation of foreigners. Mhm. And do you feel that Andy Burnham is listening?
37:4137 minutes, 41 secondsI highly doubt it to be honest. However, we shall try with every single point that we have to bring forward the paradoxes of what has happened to the
37:4937 minutes, 49 secondsEnglish legal system as well as the English democratic system in order to put a mirror in front of them so that they can no longer claim any moral
37:5637 minutes, 56 secondssuperiority after their hands are full of blood. And hoping that with that we can bring forward change little by little as per the fact that the British
38:0438 minutes, 4 secondspeople are more than ever as per the American people aware of what is happening and aware of a very simple fact and that is the people of the
38:1238 minutes, 12 secondsregion should never be controlled by foreign entities and they have every right to live equally like everyone else.
38:1838 minutes, 18 secondsI want to thank you all for being with us. Shahad Hamuri, Palestinian Jordanian lecturer in international law and legal theory at University of Kent. Neve
38:2638 minutes, 26 secondsGordon, uh, Israeli political scientist, professor of international law and human rights at Queen Mary University of London and British MP Jeremy Corbin.
38:3838 minutes, 38 secondsThey three co-chared the Gaza Tribunal and co-authored the new book Just Out, the Gaza Tribunal, Britain's Complicity in Genocide. That does it for our show.
38:4938 minutes, 49 secondsI hope you all have glasses [music] to see the total eclipse tonight or 90% here in London. You can watch it through a calendar.
38:5738 minutes, 57 secondsOh, or through a calendar. That's new one that I've been hearing. Um and tonight at that same time, I'll be at the Bertha Do House at um the Kurzan
39:0639 minutes, 6 secondsCinema in Bloomsbury for two screenings at 6:20 [music] and uh 9 of Steal the Story, Please. Special thanks to Dennis
39:1439 minutes, 14 secondsMoahan. I'm Amy Goodman. Thanks so much for joining us. I'm in London.
39:2039 minutes, 20 secondsThanks for watching Democracy Now on YouTube. Subscribe to the channel and turn on notifications to make sure you never miss a video. And for more of our
39:2939 minutes, 29 secondsaudienceup supported journalism, go to democracynow.org org where you can download our news app, sign up for our newsletter, subscribe to the daily
39:3739 minutes, 37 secondspodcast, and so much
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