Why Hamas Really Attacked Israel on Oct. 7 | Episode 12 - YouTube

Why Hamas Really Attacked Israel on Oct. 7 | Episode 12

John Mearsheimer - Offensive Realism

Oct 13, 2026

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DESCRIPTION

October 7, 2026, marked the third anniversary of Hamas’s deadly attack on Israel. Considerable attention was devoted to commemorating that event in Israel and throughout the West. The focus was mainly on three questions: 1) What happened that day? 2) Why was Israel caught by surprise? 3) What have been the consequences of that momentous day?

Much less attention was paid to a fundamental question: Why did Hamas launch the attack in the first place? Indeed, this relative neglect of the attack’s root causes has characterized much of the public discussion of October 7 from the beginning.

Israel and its supporters, however, have a straightforward explanation. According to Prime Minister Netanyahu, Hamas and its allies are “the new Nazis,” and October 7 was an unprovoked attack that Israeli leaders and much of the Israeli public have repeatedly compared to the Holocaust. In other words, the attack is understood primarily as an expression of genocidal antisemitism.

In this episode, I examine that explanation and argue that it is fundamentally mistaken. The historical record and a careful examination of Hamas’s motives point toward a very different story, which I believe is why Israel and its supporters have paid little attention to discussing the political and strategic calculations that led Hamas to attack Israel on October 7, 2023.

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Chapters

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0:00 Intro

0:26 The question nobody asks: why did Hamas attack?

2:01 The Israeli story: Hamas as "the new Nazis"

5:08 The old story: "a land without people"

8:28 The new historians rewrite the record

9:53 The real Zionist goal: a Greater Israel

11:00 The numbers: a land full of Palestinians

13:57 "They're going to have to steal the land"

15:34 Palestinian resistance, from 1936 to Gaza

17:56 Jabotinsky and Ben-Gurion: "We have stolen their country"

20:45 A Palestinian population that never went away

24:21 Option 1: the Iron Wall

26:00 Option 2: ethnic cleansing

28:54 Option 3: Bantustans and ghettos

30:38 The myth of the two-state solution

32:45 Gaza: occupation, settlers and Sharon's pullout

36:30 The blockade: Gaza on a diet

38:34 Assassinating Gaza's leaders

40:22 "Mowing the lawn": Cast Lead and Protective Edge

44:25 October 7th: the inmates break out

46:22 Hamas wants its land back

49:46 Read the history

51:11 Was the attack legal under international law?

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존 미어샤이머 교수의 강연 <왜 하마스는 진정 10월 7일 이스라엘을 공격했는가>(Why Hamas Really Attacked Israel on Oct. 7)에 대한 요약과 평론입니다. .

<하마스는 왜 진정 10월 7일 이스라엘을 공격했는가> 요약

문제 제기와 이스라엘 내러티브의 한계 2023년 10월 7일 하마스의 대규모 기습 이후, 서방과 이스라엘의 담론은 대체로 세 가지 질문(그날 무슨 일이 일어났는가, 왜 기습을 미리 막지 못했는가, 이 사태의 결과는 무엇인가)에만 집중되어 왔다. 그러나 가장 근본적인 질문인 <하마스가 도대체 왜 공격했는가>라는 근본 원인은 철저히 외면당했다. 이스라엘 지도부와 지지자들은 하마스를 <신나치>로 규정하고, 이 공격을 홀로코스트에 비견되는 비이성적이고 대량학살적인 반유대주의의 발현으로 설명한다. 미어샤이머는 이러한 설명이 본질적으로 틀렸으며, 10월 7일 공격의 정치적·전략적 계산과 역사적 배경을 가리기 위한 왜곡이라고 반박한다.
건국 신화의 허구성과 토지 찬탈의 역사 시온주의는 오랫동안 <땅 없는 백성에게 백성 없는 땅을 준다>는 신화와 팔레스타인인들과의 평화적 공존 의도를 선전해 왔다. 그러나 1990년대 이후 등장한 이스라엘의 <신역사학자들>이 발굴한 사료는 정반대의 진실을 보여준다.

인구 구성의 실상: 1900년경 팔레스타인 지역 인구의 96%는 아랍인이었으며 유대인은 극소수에 불과했다. 건국 직전인 1947년에도 팔레스타인인은 70%(약 140만 명), 유대인은 30%(약 60만 8천 명)였다.
토지 소유 현실: 1948년 이스라엘 건국 당시 유대인이 소유한 토지는 전체의 약 6.6%에 불과했다. 따라서 다수 원주민이 거주하는 광대한 영토에 유대인 국가를 세우기 위해서는 필연적으로 폭력적인 토지 강탈과 추방이 수반될 수밖에 없었다. 제브 자보틴스키와 다비드 벤구리온 같은 초기 지도자들도 이 점을 명확히 직시하고 있었다. 자보틴스키는 원주민이 자기 땅을 지키기 위해 저항하는 것은 당연하다고 보았고, 벤구리온 역시 <우리가 그들의 나라를 빼앗았는데 아랍 지도자들이 왜 평화를 맺겠는가. 나라도 결코 타협하지 않을 것>이라 공언했다.

팔레스타인인을 다루기 위한 세 가지 억압 전략 1948년 약 70만~75만 명의 팔레스타인인을 인종청소하여 쫓아냈음에도 불구하고, 1967년 6일 전쟁을 거치며 서안지구와 가자지구를 점령하자 현재 <대이스라엘> 영토 내 인구는 팔레스타인인과 이스라엘 유대인이 각각 약 730만 명으로 팽팽히 맞서는 상황이 되었다. 이 인구학적 문제 앞에서 이스라엘이 구사한 전략은 다음 세 가지였다.

철벽(Iron Wall): 자보틴스키가 주창한 철권통치로, 무자비한 무력 진압을 통해 팔레스타인인이 저항을 포기하고 굴복하게 만든다는 발상이다.
인종청소(Ethnic Cleansing): 1948년 나크바를 통해 대규모 추방을 감행했고, 오늘날에도 가자와 서안의 주민들을 이집트나 요르단으로 몰아내려는 시도를 지속하고 있다.
게토화 및 반투스탄(Bantustans): 남아프리카공화국의 아파르트헤이트처럼 팔레스타인인을 고립된 게토에 가두는 전략이다. 가자지구는 이 전략의 대표적 산물로, 사실상 거대한 <수용소(Concentration Camp)>로 전락했다. 서방이 언급하는 <2국가 해법>은 이스라엘 지도부가 진지하게 고려한 적이 없는 허상에 불과하며, 2005년 아리엘 샤론의 가자 철수 또한 평화를 위한 것이 아니라 도브 와이스글라스의 표현대로 평화 협상을 <포르말린에 넣어 동결>하고 가자를 고립 감금하기 위한 술책이었다.

가자 봉쇄, 표적 암살, 그리고 <잔디 깎기> 2006년 선거 승리 후 2007년 하마스가 가자를 장악하자, 이스라엘의 억압은 한층 가혹해졌다.

기아 직전의 식량 통제: 이스라엘은 주민들이 아사하지 않을 최소한의 칼로리만 반입시키는 잔혹한 봉쇄를 단행했다.
지도부 암살: 2004년 휠체어에 의지하던 하마스 창설자 셰이크 아메드 야신 암살을 비롯해 가자의 지도자들을 주기적으로 제거했다.
잔디 깎기(Mowing the Lawn): 압도적인 공군력을 동원해 주기적으로 가자를 폭격하여 대규모 인명 피해를 내고 굴복을 강요했다. 2008~2009년 <캐스트 리드 작전>에서 1,391명, 2014년 <프로텍티브 에지 작전>에서 2,203명의 팔레스타인인이 학살당했으며, 이는 10월 7일 이스라엘 측 사망자(약 1,100~1,200명)를 크게 웃도는 수치다.

10월 7일 사태의 실체와 국제법적 맥락 10월 7일의 기습은 반유대주의 광기나 나치즘의 재현이 아니라, 노먼 핑클스타인이 1831년 냇 터너의 노예 반란에 비유했듯 <수용소에 갇힌 수감자들의 탈출>이자 억압에 맞선 저항이다. 그들의 목적은 자유를 쟁취하고 빼앗긴 땅을 되찾는 것이었다. 또한 국제법상 불법 점령군에 맞서 무장 저항을 벌이는 것은 피점령민의 정당한 권리로 인정받는다. 비록 교전 중 발생한 민간인 살상은 별개의 문제라 할지라도, 불법 점령에 저항해 공격을 감행한 행위 자체는 국제법상 합법적인 무장 저항의 범주에 속한다.

평론: 구조적 폭력의 인과율과 세계시민적 시각에서의 성찰

현실주의 시각으로 포착한 인과적 필연성
미어샤이머의 논증은 그가 평생 천착해 온 공격적 현실주의의 연장선에 서 있다. 그는 국가나 정치 집단의 행위를 감정이나 이념적 광기가 아닌 힘의 역학, 영토, 생존의 차원에서 구조적으로 설명한다. 이스라엘 지배층이 10월 7일을 <신나치의 홀로코스트적 반유대주의>로 규정하는 것은 수십 년간 축적된 자신들의 구조적 가해와 점령 범죄를 은폐하기 위한 이데올로기적 면책 장치에 불과하다. 75년간 이어진 토지 강탈, 강제 이주, 그리고 17년간 지속된 가자지구 봉쇄라는 구조적 폭력을 도외시한 채 일어난 사건의 원인을 설명할 수는 없다. 벤구리온과 자보틴스키의 솔직한 언명을 인용하여 이스라엘 건국 세력 스스로가 폭력적 수탈과 원주민 저항의 불가피성을 인정하고 있었음을 폭로한 대목은 서방 주류 담론의 위선을 날카롭게 허문다.
비유의 적절성과 '수용소 탈출'의 역사적 위치
미어샤이머가 가자지구를 <집중수용소>로 규정하고 10월 7일을 <수감자들의 탈주> 및 1831년 냇 터너의 노예 반란에 비유한 것은 이 사건의 성격을 식민지 수탈과 아파르트헤이트에 맞선 원주민 저항의 계보 속에 올바르게 위치시킨다. 피억압 집단이 겪는 극한의 봉쇄와 기아 통제, 주기적인 군사적 살육(잔디 깎기)이라는 환경은 평화적 공존의 가능성을 제도적으로 소멸시켰다. 절망과 봉쇄 속에 갇힌 인간 집단이 파괴적인 탈출을 시도하는 것은 역사적으로 반복되어 온 구조적 반응이다.
국제법적 합법성과 무력 저항의 딜레마
미어샤이머는 유엔 헌장과 국제법 원칙에 근거하여 외세의 불법 점령에 대한 피점령민의 무장 저항권이 합법적임을 명시한다. 이는 서방 언론이 일방적으로 씌우는 무조건적 <테러> 프레임을 법리적으로 교정한다는 점에서 중요한 의미를 지닌다.
그러나 세계시민적 관점에서 볼 때, 저항의 권리가 합법적이라는 점과 그 저항 과정에서 발생한 개별적 교전 수칙의 정당성은 엄격히 구분되어야 한다. 민간인을 향한 살상과 납치는 제네바 협약을 비롯한 국제 인도법(IHL) 위반이며, 이는 억압받는 자들의 저항이라 할지라도 정당화되기 어렵다. 미어샤이머 역시 민간인 살상 자체를 옹호하지는 않지만, 무장 저항권의 일반론적 정당성을 강조하는 과정에서 민간인 피해에 대한 인도주의적 규범과의 긴장을 충분히 입체적으로 해소하지는 않는다.
세계시민주의적 결론: 보편적 인간 존엄과 점령 체제의 종식
특정 민족의 배타적 애국심이나 선민의식의 렌즈를 벗겨내고 세계인의 눈으로 사태를 바라볼 때, 이 비극의 근원은 <인간이 다른 인간을 수용소에 가두고 서서히 말려 죽일 권리는 그 어떤 역사적 상처로도 정당화될 수 없다>는 데 있다.
이스라엘이 팔레스타인인을 철벽으로 짓누르고, 인종청소로 밀어내며, 게토에 가두어 관리하려 했던 지난 수십 년의 시도는 결국 10월 7일이라는 파국적 폭발로 귀결되었다. 폭력적인 분할과 봉쇄를 영속화하려는 시도는 필연적으로 더 큰 피의 악순환을 부른다. 10월 7일의 근본 원인을 직시한다는 것은 하마스의 폭력을 미화하는 것이 아니라, 수탈과 불법 점령이라는 구조적 원인을 제거하지 않고서는 그 땅에 사는 누구도 안전과 평화를 누릴 수 없다는 냉엄한 진실을 인정하는 일이다.

세진님, 텍스트 음성 변환(TTS)을 편안하게 이용하실 수 있도록 별표 기호는 배제하고 서술하였습니다. 추가로 더 깊이 논의하고 싶으신 부분이 있으시면 언제든 편하게 말씀해 주십시오.

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존 미어샤이머

Why Hamas Really Attacked Israel on Oct. 7 | John Mearsheimer | 2026년 10월 13일 | 약 53분 강연

1. 서론: 10월 7일을 어떻게 이해할 것인가?

국제정치학자 존 미어샤이머(John Mearsheimer)의 이 강연은 2023년 10월 7일 하마스의 이스라엘 공격을 역사적 맥락에서 설명하려는 시도이다.

미어샤이머는 10월 7일 이후 이스라엘과 서방에서 널리 제시된 설명에 도전한다. 즉, 하마스의 공격이 유대인에 대한 증오와 반유대주의에서 비롯되었으며, 따라서 나치의 유대인 학살과 같은 역사적 맥락에서 이해해야 한다는 주장이다.

그는 이러한 설명이 팔레스타인인과 이스라엘인 사이에 형성된 장기적인 정치적·영토적 갈등을 가린다고 주장한다.

강연의 중심 명제는 다음과 같다.

하마스의 10월 7일 공격을 이해하려면 하마스의 이념만이 아니라 시온주의 운동의 역사, 팔레스타인인의 토지 상실, 1948년의 대규모 추방과 피난, 1967년 이후의 점령, 그리고 가자지구 봉쇄를 살펴보아야 한다.

미어샤이머는 이 공격을 주로 종교적 증오의 폭발이 아니라 팔레스타인 민족의 토지와 자유를 둘러싼 오랜 투쟁의 연장선에서 해석한다.

그러나 여기에는 처음부터 중요한 구별이 필요하다. 어떤 폭력의 역사적 원인을 설명하는 일과 그 폭력의 구체적 실행 방식을 정당화하는 일은 다르다.

2. 이스라엘 건국과 팔레스타인인의 토지 문제

강연의 상당 부분은 19세기 말부터 1948년까지의 시온주의 운동에 할애된다.

미어샤이머가 강조하는 것은 시온주의자들이 진출한 팔레스타인이 비어 있는 땅이 아니었다는 사실이다.

그는 1900년 무렵 팔레스타인 인구의 약 96%가 아랍인이었으며, 1947년에도 아랍인이 약 70%를 차지했다고 설명한다. 이 수치들은 이스라엘 건국 이전 팔레스타인 인구구성을 보여주기 위해 제시된다.

강연에 따르면 시온주의 지도자들의 목표는 단순히 유대인 이민자들이 기존 주민들과 평화롭게 공존하는 사회를 만드는 것이 아니었다. 그들의 목표는 팔레스타인에 유대인 민족국가를 건설하는 것이었다.

미어샤이머는 특히 시온주의 사상가 제브 자보틴스키와 이스라엘 초대 총리 다비드 벤구리온의 발언을 인용한다.

그는 두 지도자 모두 팔레스타인 아랍인들이 자신들의 땅에 유대인 국가가 수립되는 데 저항하리라는 사실을 알고 있었다고 해석한다.

이러한 관점에서 이스라엘 건국은 두 민족의 민족주의가 충돌한 사건인 동시에, 유럽에서 발전한 정착민 민족주의가 기존 주민들의 거주 공간을 재편한 과정이기도 하다.

미어샤이머는 특히 1948년 팔레스타인인의 대규모 피난과 추방을 강조한다.

팔레스타인에서는 이를 나크바(Nakba), 즉 '대재앙'이라고 부른다. 이 사건은 단순히 과거에 발생한 인구 이동이 아니라 오늘날 팔레스타인 민족 정체성의 중심을 이루는 집단적 기억이다.

다만 강연은 초기 시온주의 운동 내부의 다양한 입장, 유럽 반유대주의와 홀로코스트가 유대인 국가 건설 요구에 미친 영향 등을 상대적으로 적게 다룬다.

따라서 미어샤이머의 서술은 팔레스타인인의 경험을 이해하는 데 초점을 둔 역사 해석으로 읽을 필요가 있다.

3. 팔레스타인 저항은 왜 발생했는가?

미어샤이머는 팔레스타인인의 저항을 비합리적 증오의 결과로 설명하지 않는다.

그의 논리에 따르면 어느 민족이든 자신의 토지에 외부 집단이 들어와 새로운 국가를 건설하고 정치적 지배권을 확보하려 한다면 저항할 가능성이 높다.

그는 이러한 점을 강조하기 위해 자보틴스키의 1923년 (The Iron Wall)을 논의한다.

자보틴스키는 팔레스타인 아랍인들이 시온주의의 목표를 자발적으로 수용하리라고 기대할 수 없으며, 결국 강력한 군사적 우위를 통해 그들의 저항을 극복해야 한다고 주장했다.

미어샤이머는 이 논리가 이후 이스라엘의 대팔레스타인 정책을 이해하는 중요한 열쇠라고 본다.

그가 제시하는 기본 구도는 다음과 같다.

첫째, 팔레스타인인들은 자신들의 토지를 빼앗겼다고 인식한다.

둘째, 이스라엘은 유대인 국가를 유지하기 위해 팔레스타인인의 저항을 억제한다.

셋째, 저항과 억압이 반복되면서 갈등이 장기화한다.

그는 이 과정을 이해하지 않고 하마스의 폭력만을 관찰하면 갈등의 원인을 잘못 파악하게 된다고 주장한다.

이 논의의 특징은 하마스를 이례적으로 폭력적인 집단으로만 보는 대신, 팔레스타인 민족 저항의 역사 속에 위치시킨다는 점이다.

그러나 팔레스타인인의 저항이라는 일반적 범주와 하마스라는 특정 조직의 이념·전략·행동을 동일시할 수는 없다. 팔레스타인 사회 내부에도 무장투쟁, 외교, 시민운동, 비폭력 저항을 둘러싼 다양한 입장이 존재한다.

4. 이스라엘이 팔레스타인 문제에 대응한 세 가지 방식

미어샤이머는 이스라엘의 팔레스타인 정책을 세 가지 전략으로 정리한다.

첫째, 철의 장벽(Iron Wall)

강력한 군사력으로 팔레스타인인의 저항을 억제하고, 결국 이스라엘의 존재와 지배적 지위를 수용하도록 만든다는 전략이다.

둘째, 인종청소(Ethnic Cleansing)

팔레스타인 주민들을 그들의 거주지에서 몰아냄으로써 영토와 인구구성을 변화시키는 방식이다. 미어샤이머는 1948년의 대규모 추방과 피난을 이 전략의 대표적 사례로 제시한다.

셋째, 반투스탄과 게토(Bantustans and Ghettos)

팔레스타인 주민들을 서로 분리된 제한된 지역에 집중시키고, 이동과 경제활동을 통제하는 방식이다.

남아프리카공화국의 아파르트헤이트 체제에서 등장한 반투스탄 개념을 활용하여 서안지구의 분절된 팔레스타인 거주지역을 설명한다.

가자지구는 그가 말하는 게토 또는 거대한 감금 공간의 대표적 사례이다.

미어샤이머는 이스라엘이 실질적으로 팔레스타인 독립국가를 허용할 의사가 없었으며, 팔레스타인인을 제한된 공간에 가두어 관리하는 방향으로 정책을 발전시켜 왔다고 주장한다.

여기에서 그의 주장은 이스라엘의 공식 입장과 충돌한다. 이스라엘 정부와 정치세력들의 팔레스타인 국가에 대한 입장은 시기와 정파에 따라 달랐으며, 안보 문제와 국가 정체성에 대한 판단 역시 정책을 형성해 왔다.

따라서 세 가지 전략은 미어샤이머가 이스라엘의 역사적 행동을 해석하기 위해 제시한 분석틀이지, 모든 이스라엘 정부가 명시적으로 채택한 통일된 정책문서는 아니다.

5. 가자지구의 점령과 봉쇄

강연은 1967년 제3차 중동전쟁 이후 가자지구의 상황을 자세히 다룬다.

이스라엘은 1967년 가자지구와 서안지구를 점령했다. 이후 가자지구에는 이스라엘 정착촌이 건설되었으나, 2005년 아리엘 샤론 정부는 정착민과 상주 지상군을 철수시켰다.

미어샤이머는 이 철수를 팔레스타인 독립을 위한 조치로 보지 않는다.

그는 이스라엘이 정착촌을 철수시키는 대신 가자지구 주민들에 대한 외부 통제력을 유지하고, 팔레스타인 문제를 정치적으로 관리하려 했다고 해석한다.

2007년 하마스가 가자지구의 지배권을 확보한 이후 이스라엘은 봉쇄를 강화했다. 이집트 역시 국경 통제에 중요한 역할을 했다.

미어샤이머는 가자지구 주민들의 이동과 물자 반입이 심각하게 제한되고, 경제적·사회적 생활이 외부의 결정에 종속되었다는 점을 강조한다.

그는 가자지구를 '세계 최대의 야외 감옥'이라고 묘사하는 시각에 동의하며, 이를 단순한 수사가 아니라 장기적 통제체제를 설명하는 표현으로 사용한다.

특히 식량과 생활필수품의 공급량까지 통제하려 한 정책에 주목한다.

그의 분석에서 가자지구는 공식적인 독립국가도 아니고 정상적인 시민적 자유를 보장받는 사회도 아니다.

이처럼 오랫동안 봉쇄된 사회에서 무장저항이 발생했다는 사실을 놀라운 사건으로만 해석해서는 안 된다는 것이 그의 주장이다.

다만 봉쇄에 관한 설명에서도 중요한 쟁점은 남는다. 이스라엘은 로켓 공격과 무기 반입 방지를 봉쇄의 주요 안보상 이유로 제시해 왔다. 미어샤이머는 이러한 안보 논리보다 봉쇄가 팔레스타인 주민들의 삶과 정치적 선택에 미친 영향을 중심으로 논의를 전개한다.

6. 10월 7일 이전의 이스라엘 군사작전

미어샤이머는 가자지구에서 반복된 이스라엘 군사작전을 설명하기 위해 '잔디 깎기'(Mowing the Lawn)라는 표현을 소개한다.

이는 팔레스타인 무장세력의 군사능력을 주기적으로 약화시키기 위해 대규모 군사작전을 반복하는 전략을 뜻한다.

그는 특히 두 차례의 작전을 비교한다.

2008~2009년의 캐스트 리드 작전(Operation Cast Lead)
2014년의 프로텍티브 에지 작전(Operation Protective Edge)

그는 이 두 작전에서 발생한 팔레스타인인 사망자가 2023년 10월 7일의 이스라엘 측 사망자보다 많았다는 점에 주목한다.

이러한 비교를 통해 미어샤이머는 세계가 10월 7일의 피해에는 집중하면서도 이전 수십 년 동안 발생한 팔레스타인인의 피해에는 충분한 관심을 기울이지 않았다고 주장한다.

그의 문제의식은 사망자의 숫자만을 비교하는 것이 아니다.

폭력이 국제사회에서 어떻게 기억되고, 어떤 사건은 중대한 역사적 전환점으로 취급되는 반면 다른 사건은 반복되는 지역분쟁의 일부로 처리되는가를 묻는다.

그러나 사망자 수의 비교만으로 개별 군사행동의 법적 성격이 결정되지는 않는다. 민간인에 대한 의도적 공격, 무차별 공격, 비례성 위반 여부 등은 각각의 구체적 행위를 조사해야 판단할 수 있다.

7. 하마스는 왜 10월 7일 공격을 감행했는가?

강연의 가장 중요한 부분이다.

미어샤이머는 하마스가 이스라엘을 공격한 이유를 다음과 같이 해석한다.

첫째, 팔레스타인인들은 자신들의 고향과 토지를 빼앗겼다고 생각한다.

둘째, 가자지구 주민들은 오랫동안 봉쇄와 군사적 통제를 경험했다.

셋째, 정치적 해결이나 독립국가 건설의 전망은 매우 제한적이었다.

넷째, 하마스는 무장투쟁을 통해 이러한 상황을 변화시키려 했다.

미어샤이머는 공격 당시 하마스 대원들이 가자지구의 경계시설을 돌파하여 이스라엘 영토로 진입한 것을 단순히 외부 국가에 대한 침략행위로만 해석하지 않는다.

그의 해석에서 이 공격은 자신들이 빼앗겼다고 생각하는 땅으로 돌아가려는 시도이기도 했다.

그는 1948년 이전 이스라엘 건국 과정에서 팔레스타인인들의 저항을 예상했던 시온주의 지도자들의 발언과 하마스 지도자들의 영토 회복 주장을 비교한다.

그가 보기에 양측은 정반대의 정치적 목표를 추구하지만, 자신이 민족적 권리를 가진다고 믿는 영토를 확보하려 한다는 점에서는 구조적으로 유사하다.

이러한 분석에서 하마스는 단순히 유대인을 증오하는 종교적 극단주의 조직이 아니라, 팔레스타인 민족주의의 급진적·이슬람주의적 형태를 대표하는 조직으로 해석된다.

그러나 이 설명에는 분명한 한계가 있다. 하마스의 실제 전략은 단순한 토지 회복 요구보다 복잡하다.

하마스는 팔레스타인 민족주의뿐 아니라 이슬람주의 이념, 조직의 생존, 팔레스타인 정치 내부의 주도권 확보, 이스라엘과 아랍국가의 관계 정상화 저지 등 여러 목표를 가지고 있었다.

따라서 10월 7일 공격을 이해하려면 역사적 불만과 함께 공격을 결정한 지도부의 구체적 전략도 분석해야 한다.

8. 미어샤이머가 제시한 국제법적 주장

강연 마지막에서 미어샤이머는 국제법에 관하여 강한 주장을 제시한다.

그는 불법적인 점령 아래 있는 주민들이 점령국에 무장저항을 할 권리가 있으며, 그러한 의미에서 하마스가 이스라엘 군사력에 저항하는 행위는 합법적이라고 주장한다.

여기에서 그는 민간인 살해 문제와 무장저항 자체를 구별한다고 말한다.

그러나 이 부분은 엄밀한 법적 검토가 필요하다.

국제인도법은 무력충돌 당사자 모두에게 민간인과 전투원을 구별할 의무를 부과한다. 점령에 저항한다는 정치적 목적이 민간인 살해나 인질 억류를 허용하지 않는다.

휴먼라이츠워치(Human Rights Watch)는 2024년 7월 발표한 조사에서 하마스가 주도한 무장단체들이 10월 7일 민간인 살해, 인질 납치 등 전쟁범죄와 반인도범죄를 저질렀다고 결론 내렸다. 또한 그러한 범죄가 우발적인 부수적 행위가 아니라 공격 계획의 일부였다는 증거를 제시했다.

Human Rights Watch

따라서 무장저항 일반의 정치적·법적 정당성 문제와 10월 7일 실제로 발생한 공격행위의 적법성 문제를 반드시 분리해야 한다.

강연의 설명을 10월 7일 공격 전체가 국제법상 합법이라는 뜻으로 받아들인다면, 이는 국제인도법의 핵심 원칙과 충돌한다.

9. 평론: 미어샤이머의 분석에서 주목할 네 가지 문제

① 역사적 원인과 직접적인 공격 동기는 다르다

미어샤이머의 분석은 10월 7일 공격의 장기적 배경을 설명하는 데 집중한다.

그는 팔레스타인인의 토지 상실, 점령, 봉쇄가 무장저항이 발생하는 구조적 조건이라고 본다.

그러나 이러한 조건이 존재했다는 사실만으로 하마스가 왜 하필 2023년 10월 7일 공격을 결정했는지는 충분히 설명되지 않는다.

여기에는 별도의 전략적 분석이 필요하다.

예를 들어 하마스가 이스라엘과 사우디아라비아의 관계 정상화를 방해하고, 팔레스타인 문제를 국제정치의 중심으로 복귀시키며, 팔레스타인 정치 내부의 주도권을 확보하려 했다는 해석이 있다.

테러리즘 연구자 매슈 레빗(Matthew Levitt)은 이러한 정치적 계산과 함께 하마스가 가자지구 통치 부담을 줄이면서 군사조직으로서의 영향력을 유지하려 했다고 분석한다.

The Washington Institute

이러한 설명은 미어샤이머의 역사적 분석과 반드시 모순되지 않는다.

오히려 두 설명을 결합하면 보다 완전한 인과관계를 구성할 수 있다.

역사적 억압은 무장저항이 등장하는 조건을 설명하고, 정치적 계산은 특정 시점의 공격 결정을 설명한다.

② 반유대주의와 반시온주의를 구별해야 한다

미어샤이머는 하마스의 공격을 나치의 유대인 학살과 직접 비교하는 설명에 반대한다.

그가 강조하는 것은 팔레스타인인들이 유대인이라는 종교적 정체성만을 이유로 저항한 것이 아니라, 자신들의 토지와 정치적 권리를 둘러싼 갈등 속에서 이스라엘 국가에 저항해 왔다는 점이다.

반시온주의가 언제나 반유대주의와 동일한 것은 아니다.

그러나 반시온주의적 정치목표를 가진 조직이 반유대주의적 표현이나 행위를 동시에 보일 수도 있다.

따라서 하마스의 모든 행동을 반유대주의만으로 설명하는 것도 부정확하지만, 하마스의 이념과 폭력에 나타나는 반유대주의적 요소를 완전히 배제하는 것 역시 충분한 설명이 아니다.

종교적 적대감, 민족주의, 영토 갈등은 서로 배타적인 원인이 아니다.

③ 정착민 식민주의라는 분석틀의 유용성과 한계

미어샤이머의 역사 해석은 정착민 식민주의(settler colonialism) 연구와 상당한 공통점을 가진다.

정착민 식민주의는 외부에서 이주한 집단이 기존 주민들이 살던 영토에 새로운 정치체제를 만들고, 인구구성과 토지 소유관계를 재편하는 역사적 과정을 분석하는 개념이다.

이 관점은 팔레스타인인의 토지 상실과 난민 문제를 이해하는 데 중요한 설명력을 갖는다.

그러나 이스라엘 건국의 역사를 이 틀 하나로 설명하면 유럽에서 박해받던 유대인들의 민족적 자기결정 요구, 유대인의 팔레스타인에 대한 역사적·종교적 연결, 중동 지역 유대인들의 경험이 충분히 설명되지 않을 수 있다.

이스라엘과 팔레스타인의 갈등은 두 민족이 동일한 영토에 역사적·정치적 권리를 주장하면서 형성된 갈등이기도 하다.

따라서 정착민 식민주의 분석과 상충하는 민족적 자기결정권의 문제를 함께 살펴볼 필요가 있다.

④ 민족해방운동의 역사와 민간인 보호의 원칙

미어샤이머의 강연에서 가장 논쟁적인 부분은 하마스의 공격을 민족해방투쟁의 역사에 연결하는 대목이다.

민족해방운동의 역사에는 무장투쟁과 비폭력 저항이 모두 존재한다.

그러나 정당한 정치적 목표를 추구한다는 사실이 그 목표를 실현하기 위해 선택한 모든 수단을 정당화하지는 않는다.

이 구분은 하마스뿐 아니라 이스라엘 국가에도 동일하게 적용되어야 한다.

이스라엘 시민의 안전을 보장해야 한다는 목표 역시 팔레스타인 민간인에 대한 무차별 공격, 강제이주, 집단처벌 등을 정당화하지 못한다.

따라서 민족적 권리, 국가안보, 민간인 보호는 어느 하나를 위해 다른 하나를 완전히 희생시킬 수 있는 관계가 아니다.

10. 종합 평가: 역사적 원인을 이해하는 것과 폭력을 정당화하는 것은 다르다

미어샤이머의 강연을 이해하는 핵심은 그가 질문 자체를 바꾸려 한다는 점이다.

그는 '하마스는 왜 그렇게 잔혹한 공격을 했는가?'라는 질문에서 출발하기보다 '이스라엘과 팔레스타인 사이에는 어떤 역사적 관계가 형성되었기에 이러한 공격이 발생했는가?'라고 묻는다.

이러한 접근은 중요한 지적 의미를 가진다.

10월 7일이라는 하루의 사건만 살펴보면 이스라엘과 팔레스타인 사이에서 수십 년 동안 진행된 점령, 추방, 저항, 봉쇄의 역사가 시야에서 사라질 수 있기 때문이다.

그러나 장기적인 구조적 원인에 집중하는 설명은 구체적인 정치적 행위자의 선택과 책임을 상대적으로 약화시킬 위험이 있다.

특히 하마스가 10월 7일이라는 특정 시점을 선택한 전략적 동기, 민간인 공격의 계획 여부, 지도부의 정치적 계산은 역사적 배경과 별개로 검토할 필요가 있다.

또한 미어샤이머는 강연에서 가자지구를 감옥에 비유하고 10월 7일을 탈출 또는 봉기의 형태로 묘사한다. 이러한 비유는 봉쇄된 주민들의 처지를 강조하지만, 실제 공격에 포함된 민간인 살해와 인질 납치의 성격을 충분히 설명하지는 못한다.

사회학적으로 보면 이 강연의 핵심 주제는 '구조와 행위'의 관계이다.

장기적인 지배와 불평등이라는 구조는 폭력적 저항이 등장하는 조건을 형성할 수 있다. 그러나 구조가 특정 조직의 모든 행동을 결정하는 것은 아니다. 조직의 지도자들은 여러 선택지 가운데 하나를 선택하며, 그 선택에 대한 책임을 진다.

이러한 구분은 이스라엘 정부의 행동을 분석할 때에도 똑같이 필요하다.

마지막으로, 미어샤이머의 접근에는 역사적 설명과 도덕적 판단의 긴장이 존재한다. 폭력이 발생한 역사적 조건을 깊이 이해할수록 폭력의 가해자를 단순한 악의 상징으로만 해석하기 어려워진다. 그러나 그렇다고 해서 피해자의 고통이나 가해자의 책임이 사라지는 것은 아니다.

이 강연을 통해 생각할 수 있는 가장 중요한 질문은 다음과 같다.

팔레스타인인의 역사적 권리와 고통을 충분히 인정하면서도 하마스의 민간인 공격을 명확하게 비판할 수 있는가? 동시에 이스라엘인의 안전을 인정하면서도 팔레스타인인의 자유와 자기결정권을 부정하는 체제를 비판할 수 있는가?

이 두 가지 질문에 동시에 답하려는 접근이 이스라엘·팔레스타인 갈등을 이해하는 데 필요하다.

미어샤이머의 강연은 첫 번째 질문의 역사적 배경을 상세히 제시한다. 여기에 하마스의 독자적인 정치적 계산, 민간인 공격에 관한 사실조사, 이스라엘 사회 내부의 다양한 역사적 경험을 함께 검토해야 더욱 균형 잡힌 분석이 가능하다.

자료: 첨부된 존 미어샤이머 강연 녹취록 15쪽. 평론에서 추가한 국제법 및 하마스의 전략적 동기 관련 논의는 별도로 인용한 외부 연구·조사에 근거한다.

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Transcript

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Chapter 1: Intro

0:000 secondsWhat happened on October 7th is basically the inmates broke out of the concentration camp.

0:088 secondsThe West is leading Ukraine down the primrose path, and the Israelis are executing a genocide in Gaza.

0:1616 secondsIt's not China's fault that it wants to be powerful.

0:2020 secondsSo if you get into trouble and you dial 911, there's nobody at the other— Hi, this is John Mearsheimer.

Chapter 2: The question nobody asks: why did Hamas attack?

0:2828 secondsAnd in this episode, I'd like to explore the deep causes that explain why Hamas attacked.

0:3838 secondsOn October 7th, we just commemorated the third anniversary of the October 7th attack by Hamas against Israel.

0:5353 secondsAnd much of the discussion in both Israel and the West

1:001 minuteregarding what happened on October 7th revolved around three questions.

1:071 minute, 7 secondsWhat exactly happened that day? Number one. Number two, why is it that the Israelis were caught by surprise?

1:171 minute, 17 secondsShouldn't they have known that this attack was coming and headed it off at the pass?

1:241 minute, 24 secondsAnd then the third question is, what are the consequences for Israel and for the broader region to include the Palestinians?

1:341 minute, 34 secondsGiven what happened on October 7th? I would say that those are the big three questions.

1:401 minute, 40 secondsAnd the one question that is paid little attention, it's not completely ignored, but it's paid

1:481 minute, 48 secondslittle attention is what explains the root causes of Hamas's decision to attack.

1:571 minute, 57 secondsOn October 7th, 2023.

Chapter 3: The Israeli story: Hamas as "the new Nazis"

2:012 minutes, 1 secondNow, Israel and its supporters have a basic story they tell

2:072 minutes, 7 secondsthat says that Hamas, for all intents and purposes, were acting as Nazis.

2:162 minutes, 16 secondsThat what happened on October 7th is very closely related to the Holocaust.

2:242 minutes, 24 secondsFor example, about ten days after October 7th, 2023, Prime Minister Netanyahu of Israel said that Hamas was the new Nazis.

2:372 minutes, 37 secondsHamas was the new Nazis.

2:402 minutes, 40 secondsFurthermore, there is constant reference to the Holocaust when talking about Hamas and what they did on October 7th.

2:522 minutes, 52 secondsIt's frequently said to be the deadliest single day for Jews since the Holocaust.

2:592 minutes, 59 secondsBut this is just one piece of rhetoric that goes to great lengths to connect what Hamas did with the Holocaust.

3:063 minutes, 6 secondsAnd as I said, the Israelis frequently talk about Hamas as if they were the equivalent of the Nazis.

3:163 minutes, 16 secondsSo October 7th is in the minds of many Israelis, if not most Israelis, a case of genocidal anti-Semitism.

3:273 minutes, 27 secondsAnd this is a view, by the way, that has been purveyed since October 7th, 2023.

3:363 minutes, 36 secondsAs I said, it's a subject that's not talked much about the question of why Hamas attacked on October 7th, what were the deep causes?

3:453 minutes, 45 secondsIt's a subject that doesn't get much attention, and it hasn't gotten much attention since October 7th.

3:523 minutes, 52 secondsAnd to the extent that the subject is addressed by Israel and its supporters, you get this story about the new Nazis

4:034 minutes, 3 secondsdoing something that is intended to represent another Holocaust.

4:094 minutes, 9 secondsNow, my argument is that this perspective is fundamentally flawed.

4:154 minutes, 15 secondsThis is not a sound explanation of the deep causes of what happened on October 7th.

4:234 minutes, 23 secondsAnd what I want to do in my presentation is explain what I think explains October 7th, what explains why Hamas attacked on that fateful day.

4:384 minutes, 38 secondsAnd the way I want to proceed is I first want to talk at a general level about the creation of the state of Israel.

4:464 minutes, 46 secondsI think it's very important to understand how Israel was created, to understand what happened on October 7th.

4:564 minutes, 56 secondsAnd then after I talk about the creation of the State of Israel, I'll focus laser like on Gaza.

5:045 minutes, 4 secondsAnd specifically on October 7th. So let me start by talking about Israeli history.

Chapter 4: The old story: "a land without people"

5:145 minutes, 14 secondsThe conventional wisdom is that the Zionists began to come into Israel in significant numbers

5:235 minutes, 23 secondsstarting in the early 1900s, and they were coming into an empty land.

5:335 minutes, 33 secondsFor many years, people made the argument this was a land without people.

5:395 minutes, 39 secondsIn other words, it was an area that had hardly any population at all.

5:445 minutes, 44 secondsAnd it was being occupied or going to be occupied by a people that did not have a land of their own.

5:535 minutes, 53 secondsAnd of course, here we're talking about the Jews. So the story was for a long time that this was a land without people, for a people without land.

6:066 minutes, 6 secondsIt eventually became manifestly clear that this was not true. And I'll give you some numbers in a few minutes.

6:146 minutes, 14 secondsBut Palestine was filled with Palestinians.

6:186 minutes, 18 secondsThen the other argument you often heard, and these were arguments that I heard when I was young

6:256 minutes, 25 secondsand I was first learning about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, was the claim that

6:326 minutes, 32 secondsthe Zionists who came from Europe into Palestine, had good intentions towards the Palestinians,

6:396 minutes, 39 secondsand they wanted to live with the Palestinians in what would effectively be some sort of binational political entity.

6:476 minutes, 47 secondsBut it didn't turn out that way because the Palestinians refused to live side by side with the Jews

6:556 minutes, 55 secondsand the Palestinians undermined what would have been a rather peaceful solution that the Jews intended to make work.

7:067 minutes, 6 secondsSo in this particular story, the Jews or the Zionists who were coming out of Europe are portrayed as the good guys and the Palestinians are portrayed as the bad guys.

7:207 minutes, 20 secondsAnd I must say that when I was young and I was taught about what happened

7:257 minutes, 25 secondsin terms of the creation of Israel, it was axiomatic that we were

7:327 minutes, 32 secondsled to believe that the Palestinians or the Arabs in that area were the bad guys, and the Zionists were the good guys.

7:447 minutes, 44 secondsAnd this was, I think, reflected in the very famous book that I read when I was young, which turned into a movie, and that book was called Exodus by Leon Uris.

7:567 minutes, 56 secondsAnd then, of course, there was a movie with Paul Newman and Eva Marie Saint, also called Exodus.

8:038 minutes, 3 secondsAnd this book and this movie went a long way toward convincing people like me

8:098 minutes, 9 secondsthat the Zionist narrative about what happened in Palestine from the start was the correct one.

8:188 minutes, 18 secondsAnd again, the Palestinians were the bad guys, or the Arabs were the bad guys, and the Israelis Zionists were the good guys.

Chapter 5: The new historians rewrite the record

8:288 minutes, 28 secondsBut what begins to happen in the early 1990s

8:358 minutes, 35 secondsis that a group of new historians emerge in Israel who have access to the records

8:438 minutes, 43 secondsof how Israel was really created, and they begin to write articles and books that tell a very different story

8:528 minutes, 52 secondsabout the creation of Israel, a story that is almost completely at odds with the conventional wisdom.

9:019 minutes, 1 secondAnd it's very important to emphasize here that it's Israelis and in many cases, American Jews who are telling this story.

9:109 minutes, 10 secondsIt's because they have access to the documents, and they are in a position where they could also talk to all sorts of people who were involved in the creation of the state of Israel.

9:229 minutes, 22 secondsAnd again, the story that they tell is at odds with the conventional wisdom that people like me at the time had in our heads.

9:309 minutes, 30 secondsAnd, of course, moving forward beyond the 1990s, more and more information comes out on how Israel was created.

9:399 minutes, 39 secondsAnd this, I think, fundamentally alters how most people who pay attention to the region think about the creation of the state of Israel.

Chapter 6: The real Zionist goal: a Greater Israel

9:539 minutes, 53 secondsSo let's talk a little bit about what the Zionist goals were, moving into the area of Palestine.

10:0510 minutes, 5 secondsWhat they wanted to do was to create a greater Israel.

10:0910 minutes, 9 secondsIt was rare for Zionist leaders to articulate in public what their actual goals were, in large part because they were so ambitious.

10:1910 minutes, 19 secondsZionist leaders wanted to conquer a huge chunk of territory in the Middle East and turn it into an Israeli state.

10:3110 minutes, 31 secondsToday we refer to that as Greater Israel. They wanted to create a Greater Israel.

10:3710 minutes, 37 secondsThey were not interested in living side by side with the Palestinians and some sort of binational state.

10:4310 minutes, 43 secondsThey wanted an Israeli state that controlled a lot of territory.

10:5010 minutes, 50 secondsAnd the problem, as I said before, was that the territory that the Zionists were moving into was filled with Palestinians.

Chapter 7: The numbers: a land full of Palestinians

11:0011 minutesJust to give you a feel for what the numbers looked like in 1900,

11:0711 minutes, 7 secondswhen the Zionists are beginning to come in to Palestine in reasonably large numbers, that's when they're beginning to come in.

11:1711 minutes, 17 seconds96% of the population is Palestinian or Arab. You just want to think about that.

11:2511 minutes, 25 secondsThe first Aliyah, and that means the first wave of Zionists start to come in in the early 1880s, and many of them come and then leave.

11:3911 minutes, 39 secondsAnd those Zionists in the first wave were really not deeply dedicated Zionists.

11:4711 minutes, 47 secondsThe way the Zionists in the Second Aliyah or the second wave were David Ben-Gurion, for example, who I'll talk more about as we go along, who was, of course, the founding father of Israel.

12:0012 minutesHe comes in during the Second Aliyah, or the second wave of Zionist movement into Palestine.

12:0812 minutes, 8 secondsAnd that second wave starts in 1904.

12:1212 minutes, 12 secondsAnd those are those Zionists in that wave, or what I would call the really dedicated Zionists.

12:2012 minutes, 20 secondsBut the key point that I'm trying to make here, because we're talking about the size of the population, is that in roughly 1900,

12:2912 minutes, 29 secondsjust before the Second Aliyah starts, 96% of the population in the region is comprised of Arabs or Palestinians.

12:4212 minutes, 42 secondsSo the argument that this is a land without people, for a people without land, is obviously dead wrong.

12:5012 minutes, 50 secondsJust to give you some more numbers.

12:5212 minutes, 52 secondsIsrael, I'm sure all the viewers know, was created in 1948. And 1947, this is the year before the creation of Israel.

13:0313 minutes, 3 secondsThere are basically 1.4 million Palestinians and roughly 608,000 Jews in Palestine.

13:1813 minutes, 18 seconds1.4 million Palestinians and 608,000 Jews.

13:2313 minutes, 23 secondsThat means that the Palestinians represent 70% of the population. 70% of the population.

13:3213 minutes, 32 secondsWhen Israel is created, they were 4% of the population.

13:3813 minutes, 38 secondsThe Jews were in 1900 and the Palestinians were 96%.

13:4413 minutes, 44 secondsThen by 1947, Palestinians are 70% of the population, and the Jews are roughly 30% of the population.

Chapter 8: They're going to have to steal the land

13:5713 minutes, 57 secondsNow, very importantly, the Zionists are going to have to deal with all of these Palestinians.

14:0614 minutes, 6 secondsThis is a problem from the get go, and it remains a problem today.

14:1114 minutes, 11 secondsYou have to understand that what you have here is a situation where the Zionists are coming from Europe, and they're basically going

14:2214 minutes, 22 secondsto take the land and the homes of the Palestinians away from them and turn them into homes for Zionists and later Israelis.

14:3514 minutes, 35 secondsThey're going to have to steal the land. It's very important to understand that.

14:4014 minutes, 40 secondsAnother fact that is worth keeping in mind when Israel is created, this is in 1948.

14:4814 minutes, 48 secondsBy almost all accounts, Zionists own 6.6% of the land.

14:5714 minutes, 57 secondsYou just want to think about that. Think about Palestine today. Think about Israel today.

15:0315 minutes, 3 secondsIn 1948, when the State of Israel is created, 6.6% of the land is owned by Zionists or owned by Jews.

15:1315 minutes, 13 secondsAnd as I said to you, they represented only 30% of the population.

15:2015 minutes, 20 secondsSo they're going to have to steal that land, and they're going to have to do terrible things to the Palestinians to create this state of Israel.

15:3015 minutes, 30 secondsJust no way around that. And you want to remember the Palestinians are going to resist.

Chapter 9: Palestinian resistance, from 1936 to Gaza

15:3915 minutes, 39 secondsThere's no question about that. And I'll say more about this in a minute. But the Zionist leaders fully understand that the Palestinians are going to resist.

15:4815 minutes, 48 secondsAnd you get the famous Arab revolt, or you could call it the Palestinian revolt between 1936 and 1939.

15:5615 minutes, 56 secondsAnd then after Israel's created, you have the first Intifada, which starts in 1987.

16:0316 minutes, 3 secondsYou have the Second Intifada, which happens in 2000. And by the way, it's all made clear later on in the talk.

16:1116 minutes, 11 secondsWhat happened in Gaza is another example of resistance.

16:1616 minutes, 16 secondsThe Palestinians, unsurprisingly, were going to resist this effort by the Zionists and later by the Israelis to steal their land

16:2616 minutes, 26 secondsand do absolutely horrible things to them so that Israel could be created.

16:3316 minutes, 33 secondsIf you just think about this, let's think about what's going on here.

16:3816 minutes, 38 secondsCommon sense tells you that there was no way that Israel could be created

16:4616 minutes, 46 secondswithout creating great crimes against the Palestinian people. How could it be otherwise?

16:5316 minutes, 53 secondsYou have this land that is filled with Palestinians.

16:5816 minutes, 58 secondsThey own the vast majority of the land, and the Israelis decide that they want to come in, or the Zionists decide that they want to come in.

17:0717 minutes, 7 secondsFollowed by the Israelis. They're going to create a greater Israel.

17:1117 minutes, 11 secondsThey're going to carve out a state that occupies, eventually, a huge chunk of real estate.

17:1817 minutes, 18 secondsAnd again, common sense tells you that the only way this goal can be achieved is by doing

17:2717 minutes, 27 secondsabsolutely horrible things to the Palestinians. Now, it's very important to understand

17:3517 minutes, 35 secondsthat the leading Zionists of the day fully understood the logic that I'm laying out to you.

17:4417 minutes, 44 secondsHow could it be otherwise? They understood what they were doing. They understood that this was not a land without people.

17:5117 minutes, 51 secondsThey understood that they were going to have to do horrible things to the Palestinians. And I want to read you three quotes that I have.

Chapter 10: Jabotinsky and Ben-Gurion: "We have stolen their country"

17:5917 minutes, 59 secondsOne from Ze'ev Jabotinsky, who was a leading Zionist intellectual, a quite right wing

18:0818 minutes, 8 secondsZionist, but nevertheless a brilliant man who fully understood that the Palestinians or the Arabs would revolt against what the Zionists were trying to do.

18:2218 minutes, 22 secondsAnd he did not blame them one bit.

18:2618 minutes, 26 secondsHe fully understood why they would resist the Zionist stealing their land.

18:3518 minutes, 35 secondsAnd this is a quote from Jabotinsky.

18:3818 minutes, 38 secondsHe says every native population, civilized or not, regards its land as its national home.

18:5018 minutes, 50 secondsLet's think about that.

18:5118 minutes, 51 secondsHe understood that for the Palestinians, this was their national home, this was their home, and that the Zionists were going to steal their homes,

19:0219 minutes, 2 secondssteal their land and create an Israeli state on their territory. And of course, he understood that they would resist.

19:1219 minutes, 12 secondsDavid Ben-Gurion, who is the founding father of Israel, the leading Zionist before

19:1919 minutes, 19 secondsthe state is created, a more important figure than Jabotinsky, for sure.

19:2719 minutes, 27 secondsListen very carefully to what Ben-Gurion says, and I'm going to read two quotes from Ben-Gurion. Why should the Arabs make peace?

19:3619 minutes, 36 secondsIf I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. Notice what he said?

19:4419 minutes, 44 secondsHe said I would never make terms with Israel if I were an Arab leader.

19:5219 minutes, 52 secondsHe then went on to say, and this is the second quote from Ben-Gurion.

19:5619 minutes, 56 secondsThey only see one thing we have come here and stolen their country.

20:0420 minutes, 4 secondsWhy should they accept that?

20:0820 minutes, 8 secondsHere's David Ben-Gurion, first prime minister of Israel, founding father of the State of Israel, saying, we have stolen their country.

20:1920 minutes, 19 secondsAs I said to you, common sense tells you that what Ben-Gurion and Jabotinsky are saying has to be the case.

20:3020 minutes, 30 secondsHow could it be otherwise, given the fact that this land was filled with Arabs or Palestinians, and they owned almost all of the land?

20:4320 minutes, 43 secondsThat's the first part of the story.

Chapter 11: A Palestinian population that never went away

20:4520 minutes, 45 secondsSecond thing I want to focus on is how did the

20:5220 minutes, 52 secondsthe, the Zionists and then the Israelis think about dealing with the Palestinians.

20:5920 minutes, 59 secondsNow, you want to remember that from the beginning, the Zionists and then later the Israelis have a huge number of Palestinians in their midst, and this continues to this day.

21:1021 minutes, 10 secondsLet's just go back over the numbers. Remember what I said about 1900? Roughly 96% of the population was Palestinian or Arab.

21:2121 minutes, 21 secondsThen I told you that in 1947, the year before Israel is created, about 70% of the population is Palestinian.

21:3121 minutes, 31 secondsNow, what happens in 1948?

21:3521 minutes, 35 secondsYou have a great deal of ethnic cleansing, and Israel ends up with a very small state. This is after 1948.

21:4321 minutes, 43 secondsIt's sometimes referred to as Green Line Israel or 1948 Israel. It's a rather small state.

21:5121 minutes, 51 secondsAnd in that small state, as a result of all the ethnic cleansing, roughly 20% of the population is Palestinian

22:0022 minutesand roughly 80% of the population is comprised of Israeli Jews.

22:0622 minutes, 6 secondsSo start with a situation with the Palestinians in the larger land represent 96%.

22:1622 minutes, 16 secondsThen by 1947, in the larger territory of Palestine, they represent 70%.

22:2222 minutes, 22 secondsBut then in this rather small enclave that becomes the State of Israel, they were only 20%. But then something very important happens.

22:3122 minutes, 31 secondsIn 1967, in the famous Six Day War, Israel conquers the Gaza Strip and Israel conquers the West Bank.

22:4422 minutes, 44 secondsAnd you get a situation where today in Greater Israel.

22:4922 minutes, 49 secondsAnd when we talk about Greater Israel here, I'm talking about the Israel that was created after 1948, plus the West Bank plus Gaza.

22:5822 minutes, 58 secondsThose three areas comprise what I'm calling Greater Israel today in Greater Israel.

23:0523 minutes, 5 secondsYou basically have a situation today where you have about 7.3 million Palestinians and roughly 7.3 million Israeli Jews.

23:1823 minutes, 18 secondsSo you have rough equality between Jews and Palestinians inside of Greater Israel.

23:2523 minutes, 25 secondsSo the point that I'm making here is that from 1900 up to the present, there have been huge numbers of Palestinians in the midst of Israel.

23:3923 minutes, 39 secondsAnd the question is, how do the Israelis deal with these Palestinians?

23:4323 minutes, 43 secondsBecause you want to remember going back to what Jabotinsky said and what Ben-Gurion said,

23:5123 minutes, 51 secondsit was axiomatic that those Palestinians were going to resist the harsh treatment, that the Israelis were guaranteed to dish out.

24:0324 minutes, 3 secondsThe Zionists understood this from the get go. And the Israelis themselves understood this.

24:1024 minutes, 10 secondsSo what are the different strategies that you might employ to deal with this large population of rebellious Palestinians?

Chapter 12: Option 1: the Iron Wall

24:2124 minutes, 21 secondsThe first solution was articulated by Ze'ev Jabotinsky in a very famous article called The Iron Wall.

24:3024 minutes, 30 secondsHe wrote this article in 1923, and the iron wall was his his solution to dealing with the problem.

24:4124 minutes, 41 secondsJabotinsky actually believed that you could use the iron wall, which is basically the mailed fist to beat the Palestinians into submission.

24:5424 minutes, 54 secondsThis was his belief that the Palestinians would resist for sure.

25:0125 minutes, 1 secondBut if you beat them mercilessly, mercilessly, right? They would eventually submit.

25:0925 minutes, 9 secondsAnd then the Israeli Jews could live with the Israeli Palestinians because the Palestinians would be in a submissive state.

25:2225 minutes, 22 secondsBy the way, I think that if you listen to what Ben-Gurion had to say, right. He used the word never.

25:2825 minutes, 28 secondsRemember, he said, I would never make terms with Israel. He said if I were an Arab leader, I would never, never make terms with Israel.

25:3725 minutes, 37 secondsSo I think in a very important way, Ben-Gurion understood that the iron wall was never going to work the way that

25:4625 minutes, 46 secondsJabotinsky intended, that you would never get a final submission.

25:5125 minutes, 51 secondsYou'd always have an intifada, and so forth and so on. But the iron wall was the first way of dealing with the problem.

Chapter 13: Option 2: ethnic cleansing

26:0026 minutesSecond way of dealing with the problem is ethnic cleansing.

26:0426 minutes, 4 secondsAnd you remember I told you that when Israel was created in 1948,

26:1026 minutes, 10 secondsit ended up with only 20% of its population being comprised of Palestinians.

26:1926 minutes, 19 secondsJust think about that.

26:2026 minutes, 20 secondsThe Israel that's created, Green Line, Israel, which is created in 1948, 20% of its population is Palestinians.

26:2826 minutes, 28 secondsAnd the reason the Israelis ended up with 20% of the population being Palestinians is they ethnically cleansed.

26:3826 minutes, 38 secondsHuge numbers of Palestinians from what became Green Line Israel.

26:4426 minutes, 44 secondsThe estimates are that they cleansed about 700 to 700,000 to 750,000 Palestinians.

26:5126 minutes, 51 secondsMany of those Palestinians, by the way, were pushed to Gaza.

26:5626 minutes, 56 secondsAnd many of the people in Gaza today are either people who were pushed out as young children back in 1948,

27:0527 minutes, 5 secondsor the descendants of people who were pushed out back in 1948. But you got significant ethnic cleansing.

27:1427 minutes, 14 secondsBut the problem that the Israelis run into is that after 1967,

27:2027 minutes, 20 secondsafter 1967, when they get the West Bank and they get Gaza, they go from having 20% of their population

27:2927 minutes, 29 secondsinside Israel, 20% being comprised of Palestinians, to a world where they have a Greater Israel with a population is more like 50/50.

27:4127 minutes, 41 secondsSo in a very important way, the ethnic cleansing doesn't work.

27:4527 minutes, 45 secondsAnd just to get off subject here, what the Israelis are trying to do with regard to Gaza and the West Bank today is ethnically cleanse

27:5427 minutes, 54 secondsthe Palestinians from the West Bank and from Gaza and push them into either Jordan or in to Egypt.

28:0228 minutes, 2 secondsBut you can see where ethnic cleansing, which is designed to get rid of the Palestinians, is an attractive option for the Israelis.

28:1228 minutes, 12 secondsAnd it was for the Zionists before that. The Zionists talked about expulsion at great length in private.

28:2028 minutes, 20 secondsOf course, before 1948, it's hardly surprising, because what you want to understand here is that the Israelis fully understand,

28:2928 minutes, 29 secondsand the Zionists before them fully understand what they're doing to the Palestinians, and the Palestinians are going to resist.

28:3628 minutes, 36 secondsAnd then the question becomes, how do they deal with this problem?

28:3928 minutes, 39 secondsAnd as I say, the first way they thought about it was the iron wall, which involves beating the Palestinians into submission.

28:4728 minutes, 47 secondsThe second option is ethnic cleansing. And there are real limits there.

Chapter 14: Option 3: Bantustans and ghettos

28:5428 minutes, 54 secondsThe third option is to concentrate the Palestinians

29:0229 minutes, 2 secondsin isolated enclaves in the West Bank.

29:0729 minutes, 7 secondsThe aim has been to concentrate the Palestinians in what are sometimes referred to as Bantustans, along the lines of what happened in apartheid South Africa.

29:2029 minutes, 20 secondsIn other words, you want large chunks of the Palestinian population enclosed in a particular area and in a situation where it's

29:2929 minutes, 29 secondsvery difficult for them to interact with or coordinate with Palestinians who live in other enclaves or other Bantustans.

29:4029 minutes, 40 secondsBut the idea is basically to create ghettos. Gaza is a perfect example of this.

29:4729 minutes, 47 secondsGaza is basically a huge ghetto. Sometimes it's referred to as an open air prison.

29:5429 minutes, 54 secondsOther people and lots of other people refer to it as a concentration camp. I think it is basically a concentration camp, as I'll describe here.

30:0330 minutes, 3 secondsBut what you're doing is you're taking these Palestinians who you have to keep control, right?

30:1330 minutes, 13 secondsBecause this is a Jewish state, right?

30:1530 minutes, 15 secondsThe Israeli Jews run the state, obviously, and they want to do everything they can to keep the Palestinians down.

30:2330 minutes, 23 secondsSo what you do is you concentrate them in ghettos or Bantustans and you, in effect, hope that will keep them at bay.

30:3530 minutes, 35 secondsBut those were the three main solutions. I just want to say something very quickly about the two state solution.

Chapter 15: The myth of the two-state solution

30:4230 minutes, 42 secondsThere are some people who are watching who are probably saying there really was a viable alternative, and that was to create two states, a state for the Palestinians and a state for Israel.

30:5230 minutes, 52 secondsAnd of course, there's endless talk in the West, even today about the need for a two state solution.

30:5830 minutes, 58 secondsDespite what the conventional wisdom on this subject is, the Israelis have never had any serious interest in a two state solution.

31:1231 minutes, 12 secondsThere's— there's some interest not what I would call serious interest, some interest

31:2031 minutes, 20 secondsin the late 1990s, when Ehud Barak is the prime minister of Israel, and he had Bill Clinton and Yasser Arafat get together at Camp David.

31:3131 minutes, 31 secondsAnd the conventional wisdom is that they come up with a solution. It's a viable solution for the Palestinians.

31:3931 minutes, 39 secondsThey now have an opportunity, a wonderful opportunity for their own Palestinian state.

31:4531 minutes, 45 secondsAnd they, of course, reject it because their goal is to annihilate all of the Israeli Jews, because they, of course, are Nazis.

31:5531 minutes, 55 secondsSo there's no way that the benevolent Israelis, who were offering them a state of their own, can ever succeed because the Palestinians are evil.

32:0732 minutes, 7 secondsThis whole story about the two state solution is not backed up by the facts at all.

32:1332 minutes, 13 secondsAs I said, the Israelis have never had a serious interest in a two state solution, and they certainly have no interest in it today.

32:2132 minutes, 21 secondsSo that's not a viable option.

32:2432 minutes, 24 secondsThe three viable options that the Israelis have dealt with over time to deal with the Palestinians.

32:3132 minutes, 31 secondsAnd number one, the iron wall, number two, ethnic cleansing.

32:3532 minutes, 35 secondsAnd number three, concentrating the Palestinians in Bantustans or concentration camps. And this, of course, is what you get with Gaza.

Chapter 16: Gaza: occupation, settlers and Sharon's pullout

32:4532 minutes, 45 secondsNow let's talk about Gaza. I've tried to give you the big picture up to now. I want to switch to talking about Gaza.

32:5332 minutes, 53 secondsNow, a bit on the history here.

32:5732 minutes, 57 secondsAs I said before, the Israelis don't get control of Gaza until 1967.

33:0533 minutes, 5 secondsIt's after the Six-Day War that the Israelis get control of Gaza, and they get control of the West Bank.

33:1233 minutes, 12 secondsAnd again, when we talk about creating a Greater Israel, it involves 1948 Israel, plus the West Bank, plus Gaza.

33:2133 minutes, 21 secondsSo they get Gaza in 1967 and they put settlers in Gaza.

33:2633 minutes, 26 secondsVery important to understand that they put settlers in Gaza just as they put settlers in the West Bank.

33:3333 minutes, 33 secondsBut what happens is that in in 2000—

33:4033 minutes, 40 secondsIn 2005, 2005, Ariel Sharon, he's then the prime minister of Israel.

33:5233 minutes, 52 secondsHe pulls the settlers out.

33:5633 minutes, 56 secondsAnd then in 2007, Hamas gets elected.

34:0434 minutes, 4 secondsThey have elections in Palestine. Hamas gets elected and Hamas takes over control of Gaza. That's in 2007.

34:1234 minutes, 12 secondsSo the broad picture I'm painting for you here is that in 1967, the Israelis get control of Gaza.

34:2134 minutes, 21 secondsAnd remember what I said before that in 1948, when the ethnic cleansing took place, huge numbers of Palestinians were driven out of what became Green Line Israel, and they moved into Gaza.

34:3434 minutes, 34 secondsSo when the Israelis get Gaza in 1967, it's filled with Palestinians, many of whom had lived in Green Line Israel before they were ethnically cleansed in 1948.

34:4834 minutes, 48 secondsBut that's '67. And again, the Israelis put settlements in there.

34:5234 minutes, 52 secondsThen, as I said in 2005, 2005, Ariel Sharon takes the settlers out.

35:0135 minutes, 1 secondLet's talk a little bit about that.

35:0435 minutes, 4 secondsThe conventional wisdom among Israelis and their supporters in the West is that what the Israelis were doing was acting in a very benevolent way,

35:1535 minutes, 15 secondsand they were going to give the Palestinians an opportunity to create a state of their own, to demonstrate that they could run a sovereign Gaza.

35:2835 minutes, 28 secondsThis is nonsense, right? There's no evidence to support that.

35:3335 minutes, 33 secondsDov Weissglas, who was Ariel Sharon's principal adviser

35:4035 minutes, 40 secondson security issues and was deeply involved in this decision to pull the settlers, the Israeli settlers, out of Gaza

35:4935 minutes, 49 secondsin 2005 basically said that what we're doing is putting the Palestinians on formaldehyde, putting them on formaldehyde.

36:0036 minutesAnd he made it very clear that what we want to do is freeze the political process. We want to freeze the status quo.

36:0736 minutes, 7 secondsWe're not interested in talking about giving the Palestinians any form of autonomy whatsoever.

36:1536 minutes, 15 secondsWe've got them in a concentration camp. We've just got the settlers out. And basically we're going to keep them in this concentration camp.

36:2336 minutes, 23 secondsRight. And keep them on formaldehyde. That's what we're going to do.

Chapter 17: The blockade: Gaza on a diet

36:3036 minutes, 30 secondsThis all changes for the worse in 2007, because in 2007, Hamas comes to power.

36:3936 minutes, 39 secondsAnd this really disturbs the Israelis greatly.

36:4336 minutes, 43 secondsSo what happens in 2007 is that the Israelis decide that they're going to put a blockade on Gaza,

36:5236 minutes, 52 secondsand with this blockade, they're going to put the Gazans on a very strict diet.

37:0137 minutes, 1 secondThey're going to give them a minimal amount of calories every day.

37:0637 minutes, 6 secondsAnd you want to understand the Israelis pay a great deal of attention to how many calories each Palestinian in Gaza will take in on a daily basis.

37:1937 minutes, 19 secondsI know this sounds almost absurd, but this is true. The Israelis, they don't want to starve the Palestinians to death.

37:2937 minutes, 29 secondsAnd Dov Weissglas makes this clear.

37:3237 minutes, 32 secondsHe says we want to give them basically a minimal amount of food, but not starve them to death. This is one of the goals of the blockade.

37:4037 minutes, 40 secondsYou want to think about what's happening here, and I'm sure that many of the viewers are familiar with the freedom flotillas that have tried to get into Gaza in recent years.

37:5137 minutes, 51 secondsThese freedom flotillas that come from countries like Turkey or Greece are designed to bring aid to Gaza, because the people on the Freedom Flotilla

38:0138 minutes, 1 secondare trying to break the blockade, because they understand that the people in Gaza barely have enough food to get by.

38:1238 minutes, 12 secondsAnd that's by design.

38:1538 minutes, 15 secondsSo you see, the first thing that the Israelis do in 2007 is they institute this ironclad

38:2338 minutes, 23 secondsblockade designed to put the Palestinians on a strict diet, not kill them, but push them to the limit.

Chapter 18: Assassinating Gaza's leaders

38:3438 minutes, 34 secondsAnother thing that they do is that they assassinate all sorts of leaders in Gaza.

38:4538 minutes, 45 secondsOf course, we know the Israelis today run around the world assassinating people. This was happening in Gaza even before 2007.

38:5638 minutes, 56 secondsI remember a very important case when Sheikh Ahmed Yassin was assassinated by the Israelis in 2004.

39:0739 minutes, 7 secondsSheikh Yassin was one of the founding fathers of Hamas.

39:1239 minutes, 12 secondsI believe it was in 1987, during the First Intifada, when he helped found Hamas.

39:2139 minutes, 21 secondsHe was a quadriplegic who was limited to

39:2739 minutes, 27 secondsmoving around in a wheelchair, and he was nearly blind.

39:3439 minutes, 34 secondsBut he was a very important spiritual leader inside of Gaza.

39:4039 minutes, 40 secondsBut again, he was a quadriplegic, bound to a wheelchair, and he was effectively blind for all intents and purposes.

39:5039 minutes, 50 secondsIn 2004, the Israelis killed him with an Apache helicopter. The story just goes on and on about the assassinations.

40:0040 minutesSo you see what's happening here after 2007 and again, even before 2007, is that the Israelis are assassinating leaders.

40:0940 minutes, 9 secondsAnd then after 2007, you get this wicked blockade that is designed to limit how much food the Palestinians get.

Chapter 19: "Mowing the lawn": Cast Lead and Protective Edge

40:2240 minutes, 22 secondsThe final strategy or tactic that the Israelis use, which is well known, I'm sure to most viewers, is called mowing the lawn.

40:3440 minutes, 34 secondsEvery once in a while, the Israelis will go in and mow the lawn in Gaza.

40:4140 minutes, 41 secondsThat means that they'll go in mainly with air power, and they will kill a significant number of Palestinians.

40:5040 minutes, 50 secondsJust to make it clear who's in charge and to make sure that they keep the Palestinians inside that concentration camp called Gaza in a state of submission.

41:0341 minutes, 3 secondsThere are four major cases of mowing the lawn, and I want to talk about two of them.

41:1241 minutes, 12 secondsAnd I want to talk about the casualty levels in the biggest two or the largest two cases of the Israelis mowing the lawn.

41:2141 minutes, 21 secondsAnd I want to compare how many Palestinians were killed in those two operations, one's called Cast Lead, the other's called Protective Edge.

41:3041 minutes, 30 secondsI want to talk about how many Palestinians were killed by the Israelis in those two operations, and then compare

41:3641 minutes, 36 secondsthat to the number of Israelis who were killed on October 7th, 2023.

41:4541 minutes, 45 secondsNow, just to start with what happened on October 7th, almost everybody agrees about 1,100, 1,100 Israelis

41:5441 minutes, 54 secondsdied on October 7th, and about 100 nationals from other countries who were obviously associated with the Israelis were also killed.

42:0642 minutes, 6 secondsSo the number of Israelis is 1,100, and the total number, including these foreign nationals, is 1,200.

42:1542 minutes, 15 secondsCast Lead was an operation. It was mowing the lawn.

42:2142 minutes, 21 secondsMowing the lawn operation that took place, in 2008, 2009.

42:2842 minutes, 28 secondsAnd the Israelis killed 1,391 Palestinians.

42:3642 minutes, 36 seconds1,391 Palestinians were killed in Cast Lead.

42:4042 minutes, 40 seconds1,100 Israelis were killed on October 7th, so very clear that more Palestinians were killed in Cast Lead than Israelis were killed on October 7th.

42:5542 minutes, 55 secondsThen we go to Protective Edge. Protective Edge is in 2014.

43:0043 minutesThis is the second big, mowing the lawn operation

43:0643 minutes, 6 secondsin Protective Edge, 2,203 Palestinians were killed, 2,203 Palestinians.

43:1643 minutes, 16 secondsAgain, to go back to what happened on October 7th, 1,100 Israelis were killed and in Protective Edge

43:2643 minutes, 26 seconds2,203 Palestinians were killed.

43:3143 minutes, 31 secondsThat means that more than two times as many Palestinians were killed in Protective Edge as were killed as Israelis were killed on October 7th.

43:4343 minutes, 43 secondsReally quite remarkable, if you think about it. So what's the story that I'm telling you?

43:4943 minutes, 49 secondsThe story I'm telling you is that in Gaza, since October 7th,

43:5643 minutes, 56 secondsthe Israelis have basically kept the Palestinians on a starvation diet. Number one.

44:0444 minutes, 4 secondsNumber two, they have assassinated their leaders time after time.

44:1044 minutes, 10 secondsAnd number three, they have engaged in mowing-the-lawn operations, where on two occasions they killed more people than Israelis were killed on October 7th.

Chapter 20: October 7th: the inmates break out

44:2544 minutes, 25 secondsThis brings us to the whole question of what happened on October 7th.

44:3144 minutes, 31 secondsWhat happened on October 7th is basically the inmates broke out of the concentration camp.

44:4044 minutes, 40 secondsNorman Finkelstein likes to refer to this as a slave revolt, or to the equivalent of a slave revolt.

44:4844 minutes, 48 secondsHe talks about the famous 1831 slave revolt in the South, led by Nat Turner.

44:5644 minutes, 56 secondsAnd if you listen to Norman talk, his discussion of the parallels between what happened with that slave result, that slave revolt

45:0745 minutes, 7 secondsand what happened on October 7th is commonsensical. This was basically the inmates breaking out.

45:1645 minutes, 16 secondsThese were not Nazis. These were not people who were bent on murdering Jews

45:2345 minutes, 23 secondsbecause they had views like the German leaders did in the Third Reich.

45:3245 minutes, 32 secondsThere's no similarity here. These are people who, number one, wanted their freedom.

45:3945 minutes, 39 secondsI think it's perfectly legitimate to refer to them as freedom fighters.

45:4345 minutes, 43 secondsIf you think about the conditions that they lived in inside of Gaza, if you think about what kind of hope they had for the future,

45:5245 minutes, 52 secondsdo you think it's any surprise that they tried to break out, that they tried to change the status quo?

46:0046 minutesI find it hardly surprising at all. They wanted their freedom.

46:0646 minutes, 6 secondsThey wanted to get out of this prison just the way Nat Turner wanted

46:1346 minutes, 13 secondsto get out of his situation as a slave in the South before the Civil War.

46:2146 minutes, 21 secondsThat was their first goal. Their second goal. And this is a very important point. Their second goal is to get back their land.

Chapter 21: Hamas wants its land back

46:2946 minutes, 29 secondsThe truth is, Hamas wants their land back. They believe Israel stole their land and they want it back.

46:3846 minutes, 38 secondsThis should not be surprising.

46:4046 minutes, 40 secondsI want to go back, and I want to read those two quotes that I read to you before by David Ben-Gurion.

46:4746 minutes, 47 secondsAnd I would implore you to keep these quotes in mind when you think about what Hamas did on October 7th.

46:5746 minutes, 57 secondsHere's Ben-Gurion. Why should the Arabs make peace? That's his question.

47:0247 minutes, 2 secondsIf I were an Arab leader, or should we say if I were a member of Hamas, if I were the leader of Hamas,

47:1047 minutes, 10 secondsI would never—underline the word never—make terms with Israel.

47:1647 minutes, 16 secondsIsn't this a good explanation of what Hamas thinks about creating a Palestinian state between the river and the sea?

47:2947 minutes, 29 secondsThen to read the second quote that I read to you before, from Ben, from Ben-Gurion, "They only see"—he's talking when he says they he's talking about the Arabs slash Palestinians.

47:4147 minutes, 41 secondsAnd here we're talking about Hamas. They only see one thing. We have come here and stolen their country.

47:4947 minutes, 49 secondsWhy should they accept that? Why should they accept that? Well, they don't accept that.

47:5747 minutes, 57 secondsAnd with regard to having stolen their country, you realize there are many people in Gaza who still have the keys to their house

48:0648 minutes, 6 secondsinside of Israel that the Israelis took from them in or took from their relatives in 1948.

48:1848 minutes, 18 secondsSo what I'm saying to you here is that what Hamas did

48:2548 minutes, 25 secondson October 7th is hardly surprising, given what the Israelis were doing to them inside of this concentration camp.

48:3548 minutes, 35 secondsIt's hardly surprising.

48:3748 minutes, 37 secondsAnd when you think about how those early Zionists, people like Ze'ev Jabotinsky and Ben-Gurion thought about the situation that the Palestinians were in.

48:4848 minutes, 48 secondsIt's completely consistent with what Hamas did on October 7th.

48:5648 minutes, 56 secondsAnd it's also consistent with Hamas's broader goal of wanting to control all of the territory in Palestine.

49:0749 minutes, 7 secondsNow, I fully understand why, from an Israeli point of view, this is unacceptable. And of course, Jabotinsky and Ben-Gurion made exactly that point.

49:1749 minutes, 17 secondsBut Jabotinsky and Ben-Gurion understood that the Palestinians were not Nazis.

49:2549 minutes, 25 secondsThis wasn't a case of Zionists dealing with Nazis.

49:3049 minutes, 30 secondsThis was a case of Zionists stealing the Palestinians' land for the purpose of creating a Jewish state.

49:3749 minutes, 37 secondsAnd they, of course, understood that the Palestinians would resist. And that is what Hamas did.

Chapter 22: Read the history

49:4649 minutes, 46 secondsSo if you really want to understand the deep causes of what happened on October 7th,

49:5549 minutes, 55 secondsyou should just go back and read what historians have written about the creation of Israel and

50:0450 minutes, 4 secondsabout what happened actually on October 7th and what was happening in Gaza before October 7th.

50:1250 minutes, 12 secondsIt's manifestly clear from the literature that this was a concentration camp. There's no secret here.

50:1950 minutes, 19 secondsThe Israelis fully understood that this was a concentration camp where they'd have to go in occasionally and mow the lawn.

50:2650 minutes, 26 secondsAnd again, you want to remember when people talk about the horrors of October 7th and how many Israelis were killed,

50:3550 minutes, 35 secondsthat in two of the mowing the lawn operations, more Palestinians were killed than Israelis were killed on October 7th,

50:4350 minutes, 43 secondsand in Protective Edge, twice as many more than twice as many Palestinians were killed as Israelis were killed on October 7th.

50:5350 minutes, 53 secondsAnd I don't mean to make light of those Israelis who were killed on October 7th for one second.

50:5850 minutes, 58 secondsBut at the same time, I don't want to make light of all those Palestinians that the Israelis have routinely killed over the years and continue to routinely kill.

Chapter 23: Was the attack legal under international law?

51:1151 minutes, 11 secondsOne final point.

51:1451 minutes, 14 secondsVery important to understand that what Hamas did in terms of attacking into Israel

51:2351 minutes, 23 secondson October 7th was legal, according to international law. I'm not talking about the killing of civilians.

51:3051 minutes, 30 secondsI'm not talking about what actually happened in terms of the conflict that ensued once Hamas entered into Israeli territory.

51:4051 minutes, 40 secondsI'm just saying that Israel, excuse me, that Hamas was within its rights, its legal rights.

51:4951 minutes, 49 secondsIt was okay from the perspective of international law for Hamas

51:5851 minutes, 58 secondsto attack into Israel, because Israel was an illegal occupying force in Gaza.

52:0752 minutes, 7 secondsAnd international law says that it is okay. It is legitimate.

52:1452 minutes, 14 secondsIt is acceptable for the group that is the victim of an illegal,

52:2352 minutes, 23 secondsan illegal occupation to engage in armed resistance.

52:2952 minutes, 29 secondsTo be very clear here, armed resistance on the part of Hamas was legal.

52:3752 minutes, 37 secondsIt was acceptable according to international law.

52:4352 minutes, 43 secondsThat's my final point on this whole subject, and I hope that people,

52:4952 minutes, 49 secondsafter listening to what I had to say today about the deep causes that explain why Hamas

52:5852 minutes, 58 secondsattacked on October 7th, will now go out and read much more about the creation of Israel

53:0653 minutes, 6 secondsand the circumstance that circumstances that existed in Gaza before October 7th, so that you have a better understanding of what caused the tragic events of those days.

53:2053 minutes, 20 secondsThank you very much, and I look forward to our next episode.

이스라엘, 팔레스타인, 이란, 터키, 인도, 월남, 쿠바, 아프리카

Monday, October 12, 2026

왜 하마스는 진정 10월 7일 이스라엘을 공격했는가| John Mearsheimer