How Israel indoctrinates its people w/Miko Peled | The Chris Hedges Report
The Real News Network
468,703 views Premiered Jan 13, 2024 The Real News Network Podcasts
Three months into Israel's bombardment of Gaza, the atrocities the IDF has committed against Palestinians are too numerous to name. Israel is staging a prolonged assault on the Palestinian people's very means of existence—destroying homes, hospitals, sanitation infrastructure, food and water sources, schools, and more. To understand the genocidal campaign unfolding before our eyes, we must examine the roots of Israeli society. Israel is a settler colonial state whose existence depends on the elimination of Palestinians. Accordingly, Israel is a deeply militarized society whose citizens are raised in an environment of historical revisionism and indoctrination that whitewashes Israel's crimes while cultivating a deep-seated racism against Palestinians. Miko Peled, former IDF Special Forces and author of The General's Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine, joins The Chris Hedges Report for a frank conversation on the distortions of history and reality at the foundations of Israeli identity.
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In this video
Chapters
Chapter 1: Intro
Chapter 2: The Israeli Army
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<이스라엘은 어떻게 자국민을 세뇌하는가: 미코 펠레드와의 대담> 요약 및 평론
1. 요약: 신화 위에 세워진 병영 국가의 실상
본 대담은 전직 이스라엘 특수부대원이자 <장군의 아들: 팔레스타인에서의 이스라엘인 여정>의 저자인 미코 펠레드와 저널리스트 크리스 헤지스가 이스라엘 사회의 근간을 이루는 군사주의와 세뇌 구조를 파헤치는 내용을 담고 있다
군사주의와 교육을 통한 세뇌
이스라엘의 교육 시스템은 아이들이 걸음마를 떼기 전부터 군대 계급을 익히게 할 정도로 군사 문화를 내면화시킨다
건국 신화와 팔레스타인 서사의 말살
펠레드는 이스라엘이 내세우는 1948년 건국 신화—적은 수의 유대인이 강력한 아랍 군대를 물리쳤다는 서사—가 허구라고 지적한다
홀로코스트의 도구화와 인종차별
이스라엘 방위군(IDF)은 자신들을 홀로코스트에 대한 응답으로 정의하며, 다시는 비극이 반복되지 않기 위해 무력을 행사해야 한다는 논리를 전파한다
10월 7일 이후의 변화와 종교적 시온주의의 부상
최근 이스라엘 정치는 세속적 시온주의에서 광신적인 <종교적 시온주의>로 이동하고 있다
2. 평론: 신화의 감옥을 탈출한 자의 고백과 경고
미코 펠레드의 증언은 이스라엘이라는 국가가 어떻게 <신화적 정당성>과 <군사적 폭력>이라는 두 축으로 지탱되는지를 보여주는 내부자의 통렬한 보고서다. 그의 주장은 단순한 정책 비판을 넘어 이스라엘 정체성의 뿌리를 뒤흔드는 근본적인 문제를 제기한다.
국가적 자아의 군사화
본 대담에서 가장 충격적인 지점은 이스라엘 사회가 민간과 군사의 경계가 완전히 붕괴된 상태라는 폭로다. 펠레드의 묘사에 따르면, 이스라엘 시민들은 태어나는 순간부터 국가가 설정한 <포위된 요새> 프레임 속에 갇힌다. 교육을 통해 이식된 역사 왜곡은 시민들로 하여금 팔레스타인인의 고통을 보지 못하게 만드는 심리적 맹점을 형성한다. 이는 집단적 가해 행위가 <도덕적 군대>라는 이름 아래 어떻게 정당화되고, 죄책감이 아닌 유흥으로 변질될 수 있는지를 적나라하게 보여준다.
홀로코스트의 비극적 역설
이스라엘이 홀로코스트 생존자의 트라우마를 군사적 공격성의 근거로 삼는 것은 역사적 비극의 역설이다. 인종학살의 피해자가 또 다른 인종학살의 가해자가 되는 과정을 <안보>라는 이름으로 합리화하는 논리 구조는 매우 견고하다. 펠레드는 이를 <광기>라 명명하며, 진정한 치유는 폭력이 아닌 보편적 인권과 관용에 있음을 역설한다. 이는 민족주의가 종교적 광신주의와 결합했을 때 나타나는 파괴적인 힘에 대한 강력한 경고다.
국제 사회의 책임과 전환점
펠레드는 가자 지구의 인도주의적 위기를 <환경적 대재앙>으로 규정하며, 이를 묵인하는 미국 등 서방 국가들의 위선을 비판한다. 10월 7일 사건 이후 이스라엘 내부의 무적 신화는 붕괴되었고, 정치적 마비 상태가 지속되고 있다. 저자는 지금을 아파르트헤이트 체제를 해체할 수 있는 <분수령>으로 보고 있다. 억압받는 자들의 안전이 보장되지 않는 한 억압하는 자들의 평화도 불가능하다는 그의 결론은 단순한 구호를 넘어선 역사적 통찰이다.
결론: 진실을 향한 여정
이 대담은 한 개인의 인식 변화가 어떻게 거대한 시스템의 균열을 낼 수 있는지를 보여준다. 장군의 아들로서 특권을 누릴 수 있었던 펠레드가 팔레스타인의 서사를 접하고 자신의 세계관을 무너뜨린 과정은, 이스라엘 사회가 마주해야 할 고통스러운 거울과도 같다. 결국 문제는 <누가 더 강한가>가 아니라 <누가 진실을 말하고 있는가>이다. 펠레드의 목소리는 국가적 세뇌의 장벽을 뚫고 터져 나온 진실의 함성이다.
세진님, 이 요약과 평론이 요청하신 책과 대담의 핵심을 파악하는 데 도움이 되었기를 바랍니다. 이스라엘 사회의 내면을 다룬 이 충격적인 폭로에 대해 더 궁금한 점이 있으신가요?
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0:3434 secondsThe Israeli army, known as the Israel Defense Force or IDF, is integral to understanding Israeli
0:4040 secondssociety. Nearly all Israelis do three years of military service, most continue to serve in the
0:4646 secondsreserves until middle age. Its generals often retire to occupy senior positions in government
0:5353 secondsand industry. The dominance of the military in Israeli society helps explain why war,
0:5959 secondsmilitaristic nationalism, and violence are so deeply embedded in Zionist ideology.
1:061 minute, 6 secondsIsrael is the outgrowth of a militarized settler colonial movement that seeks its legitimacy in
1:131 minute, 13 secondsbiblical myth. It has always sought to solve nearly every conflict; The ethnic cleansing and
1:191 minute, 19 secondsmassacres against Palestinians known as the Nakba or catastrophe in the years between 1947 and 1949,
1:281 minute, 28 secondsthe Suez War of 1956, the 1967 and 1973 wars with Arab neighbors, the two invasions of Lebanon, the
1:371 minute, 37 secondsPalestinian intifadas, and the series of military strikes on Gaza, including the most recent, with
1:431 minute, 43 secondsviolence. The long campaign to occupy Palestinian land and ethnically cleanse Palestinians is rooted
1:501 minute, 50 secondsin the Zionist paramilitaries that formed the Israeli state and continues within the IDF.
1:571 minute, 57 secondsThe overriding goal of settler colonialism is the total conquest of Palestinian land.
2:032 minutes, 3 secondsThe few Israeli leaders who have sought to reign in the military, such as Israeli Prime
2:082 minutes, 8 secondsMinister Levi Eshkol, have been pushed aside by the generals. The military setbacks suffered by
2:152 minutes, 15 secondsIsrael in the 1973 war with Egypt and Syria, and during Israel's invasions of Lebanon only fuel
2:232 minutes, 23 secondsthe extreme nationalists who have abandoned all pretense of a liberal democracy. They speak in
2:292 minutes, 29 secondsthe open language of apartheid and genocide. These extremists were behind the 1995 assassination of
2:352 minutes, 35 secondsPrime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Israel's failure to live up to the Oslo Accords. This extremism has now been exacerbated by the attack of October 7, which killed
2:462 minutes, 46 secondsabout 1,200 Israelis. The few Israelis who oppose this militaristic nationalism,
2:522 minutes, 52 secondsespecially after October 7, have been silenced and persecuted in Israel. Genocidal violence
3:003 minutesis almost exclusively the language Israeli leaders, and now Israeli citizens, use to
3:053 minutes, 5 secondsspeak to the Palestinians and the Arab world. Joining me to discuss the role of the military
3:113 minutes, 11 secondsin Israeli society is Miko Peled. Miko's father was a general in the Israeli army. Miko was a
3:173 minutes, 17 secondsmember of Israel's special forces, although disillusioned with the military, moved from
3:233 minutes, 23 secondshis role as a combatant to that of a medic. After the 1982 war in Lebanon, he buried his service
3:293 minutes, 29 secondspin. He is the author of, The General's Son: Journey of an Israeli in Palestine and Injustice:
3:363 minutes, 36 secondsThe Story of the Holy Land Foundation Five. You grew up, you were a child when your father
3:433 minutes, 43 secondswas a general in the IDF. This inculcation of that military ethos has begun very young and
3:533 minutes, 53 secondsbegun in the schools. Can you talk about that? Sure, thanks for having me, Chris. It's good to be with you again and talk to you. So it begins before the military. It begins in
4:054 minutes, 5 secondspreschool. It begins as soon as kids are able to talk and walk. I always say I knew the order of
4:124 minutes, 12 secondsthe ranks in the military before I knew my alphabet and this is true for many Israeli
4:174 minutes, 17 secondskids. The Israeli education system is such that it leads young Israelis to become soldiers and to
4:244 minutes, 24 secondsserve the apartheid state and to serve in this genocidal state, which is the state of Israel.
4:344 minutes, 34 secondsIt's an enormous part of that. And with me, it came with mega-doses of that because when your
4:394 minutes, 39 secondsfather's a general, and particularly of that generation of the 1967 generals, they were like
4:454 minutes, 45 secondsgods of the Olympus. Everybody knew their names. On Independence Day, I remember in the schools
4:514 minutes, 51 secondsyou would have little flags, not just flags of Israel, but flags of the IDF with pictures of IDF
4:584 minutes, 58 secondsgenerals, with pictures of military, all kinds of military symbols and so on. It's everywhere. When
5:065 minutes, 6 secondsI was a kid they still had a military parade. It's everywhere and it's inescapable. And it's like you said, you hear it when you walk down the street, you hear it in the news,
5:165 minutes, 16 secondsyou hear it in conversations, you hear it in schools, you read it in the textbooks, and there's no place to develop dissent. There's no place to develop a sense that dissent is okay,
5:265 minutes, 26 secondsthat dissent is possible. And the few cases where people do become dissenters, it's either because
5:345 minutes, 34 secondstheir families have a tradition of being communist or more progressive and somehow it's part of their
5:415 minutes, 41 secondstradition but this is a minority of a minority. By and large, Israel stands with the army,
5:505 minutes, 50 secondsand Israel is the army. You can't separate Israel from its army, from its military.
Chapter 3: The myth of the IDF
5:555 minutes, 55 secondsLet's juxtapose the myth that you were taught in school about the IDF with the reality.
6:076 minutes, 7 secondsThe myth that I was... Again, this was given to me in larger doses at home because my father and
6:146 minutes, 14 secondshis comrades were all part of the 1948 mythology. We were small and we were resourceful, and we were
6:236 minutes, 23 secondsclever, and therefore, in 1948, we were able to defeat these Arab armies and these Arab killers
6:316 minutes, 31 secondswho came to try to kill us and so on and destroy our fledgling little Jewish state. And because of
6:386 minutes, 38 secondsour heroism -- And you talked about the biblical connection -- Because we are the descendants of
6:436 minutes, 43 secondsKing David, and we are the descendants of the Maccabees, and we have this resourcefulness and
6:496 minutes, 49 secondsstrength in our genes, we were able to create a state and then every time they attacked, we
6:556 minutes, 55 secondswere there. We were able to defend ourselves and prevail and so on. It's everywhere. Then again,
7:047 minutes, 4 secondsin my case, it's every time the larger, more extended family got together or my parents
7:107 minutes, 10 secondsgot together with their friends. And in many cases, the fathers were also comrades in arms.
7:167 minutes, 16 secondsThe stories of the battles, the stories of the conquests; Every city in Israel has an
7:247 minutes, 24 secondsIDF plaza. Street names after different units of different generals are all over the country,
7:327 minutes, 32 secondsstreet names of battles, so it's everywhere. It wasn't until I was probably 40 or a little
7:417 minutes, 41 secondsless than 40, that it was the first time that I encountered the other narrative,
7:477 minutes, 47 secondsthe Palestinian story, and it was unbelievable. Somebody was telling me the day is night and night is day, or the world is flat, or whatever the comparison you want to make,
7:567 minutes, 56 secondsit was incredible. They are telling me that what I know to be true 'cause I heard it in school and I read it in books, and I heard it from my father and from my mother and from friends,
8:068 minutes, 6 secondsthat all of this is not true. And what you find out if you go along the path that I chose to take,
8:128 minutes, 12 secondsthis journey of an Israeli to Palestine, is that it was one horrifying crime against humanity.
8:208 minutes, 20 secondsThat's what this so-called heroism really was, it was no heroism at all. It was a well-trained,
8:268 minutes, 26 secondshighly motivated, well-indoctrinated, well-armed militia which then became the IDF. But when it
8:338 minutes, 33 secondsstarted, it was still a militia or today they would be called a terrorist organization,
8:408 minutes, 40 secondsthat went up against the people who had never had a military force, who never had a tank,
8:458 minutes, 45 secondswho never had a warplane, who never prepared, even remotely, for battle or for an assault.
8:548 minutes, 54 secondsThen you have to make a choice: How do you bridge this? The differences are not nuanced,
9:019 minutes, 1 secondthe differences are enormous. The choice that I made is to investigate for myself
9:089 minutes, 8 secondsand find out who's telling the truth and who isn't. And my side was not telling the truth.
9:159 minutes, 15 secondsHow did they explain incidents such as the Nakba, the massacres that took place in '48 and '56,
9:279 minutes, 27 secondsthe massive ethnic cleansing that took place in '67? How was that explained to you within
9:349 minutes, 34 secondsthat mythic narrative? Then I wonder if you could, because many of the activities as you
9:409 minutes, 40 secondsmentioned that the IDF has had to carry out are quite brutal, quite savage, the killing,
9:469 minutes, 46 secondsindiscriminate killing of civilians, we can talk about Gaza in a minute. What did that do
9:529 minutes, 52 secondsto the society, the people who carried out those killings, and, of course, eventually huge prisons
9:599 minutes, 59 secondsand torture and everything else. But let's begin with how the myth coped with those incidents and
10:0610 minutes, 6 secondsthen talk about the trauma that is carried within Israeli society for carrying out those war crimes.
10:1410 minutes, 14 secondsMy generation, we knew that there were several instances of bad apples that committed terrible
10:2110 minutes, 21 secondscrimes. And we admitted, so there was Deir Yassin, which was a village on the outskirts of Jerusalem,
10:2710 minutes, 27 secondsa peaceful village where a horrible massacre took place. Then we knew that Ariel Sharon was a bit
10:3510 minutes, 35 secondsof a lunatic and he took the commandos that he commanded in the '50s and went to the West
10:3910 minutes, 39 secondsBank and went into Gaza and committed acts of terrible massacres. He was still a hero,
10:4810 minutes, 48 secondsheld in high regard by everyone, but we knew that there were certain instances... And every military, every nation makes its mistakes and then these things happen But there was
10:5810 minutes, 58 secondsnever any sense that this somehow discounted or hurt the image of us being a moral army.
11:0811 minutes, 8 secondsThere are lots of stories of how soldiers went and they decided to, out of the kindness of their
11:1411 minutes, 14 secondsheart, they didn't harm civilians. And those same civilians went and then warned the enemy
11:2111 minutes, 21 secondsthat they were coming. And these same good Israeli soldiers would then pay the price and were killed.
11:2711 minutes, 27 secondsSo it's presented as limited cases. Nakba was not something that was ever discussed. I'm sure it's
11:3411 minutes, 34 secondsnot discussed today, certainly not in schools. In Israeli schools today, you're not allowed
11:4011 minutes, 40 secondsto mention the Nakba. There's a directive by the Ministry of Education that even Palestinians are
11:4611 minutes, 46 secondsnot allowed to mention the Nakba. But nobody ever talked about that. And the Arabs left, what are you going to do? There was a war and all these people left and this is the way it is.
11:5511 minutes, 55 secondsSo none of that ever hurt, in any way, the image of us being this glorious heroic army,
12:0512 minutes, 5 secondsdescendants of King David, and other great traditions of Jewish heroism, none of that ever,
12:1012 minutes, 10 secondsever hurt itself. So there's no trauma because we did nothing wrong. If somebody did something
12:1512 minutes, 15 secondswrong, well, it was a case of bad apples, it was limited to a particular circumstance,
12:2312 minutes, 23 secondsa particular person, a particular unit, and you get crazy people everywhere. What are you going to
12:2712 minutes, 27 secondsdo? It's never been presented as systemic. Today, we have a history so we can look back and if we do
12:3812 minutes, 38 secondspay attention, and if we do read the literature, and we do listen to Palestinians -- And today
12:4312 minutes, 43 secondsthere's this great NGO called Zochrot, which its mission is to maintain the memory of the towns and
12:5212 minutes, 52 secondscities that were destroyed in 1948 and to revive the stories of what took place in 1948 -- They
13:0013 minutesare uncovering new massacres all the time. Because as that generation is dying off, both the Israelis
13:0613 minutes, 6 secondswho committed the crimes and the Palestinians who were still alive at the time and survived, are opening up and telling more and more stories. So we know of churches that were filled with
13:1613 minutes, 16 secondscivilians and were burned down. We know of a mosque in Lydd that was filled with people and
13:2313 minutes, 23 secondsa young man went and shot a Fiat missile into it. All of these horrific stories are still
13:2813 minutes, 28 secondscoming out but Israelis are not paying attention, Israelis are not listening. Whenever there's an
13:3413 minutes, 34 secondsattack on Gaza -- And as you know very well, these attacks began in the fifties with Ariel Sharon,
13:3913 minutes, 39 secondsby the way -- There was always a reason. Because at first they were infiltrators, and then they
13:4613 minutes, 46 secondswere terrorists, and now they're called Hamas, and whatever the devil's name may be there's always a
13:5013 minutes, 50 secondsvery good reason to go in there because these are people who are raised to hate and kill and so on.
13:5813 minutes, 58 secondsSo it's a tightly-knit and tightly-orchestrated narrative that is being perpetuated and Israelis
14:0914 minutes, 9 secondsdon't seem to have a problem with that. And yet carrying out acts of brutality. The
Chapter 4: Support for Israel
14:1514 minutes, 15 secondsoccupation -- Huge numbers, a million Israelis are in the states. Large numbers of Israelis
14:2214 minutes, 22 secondshave left the country. I'm wondering how many of those are people who have a conscience and are repulsed by what they have seen in the West Bank and Gaza. Perhaps I'm incorrect about that.
14:3314 minutes, 33 secondsI don't know. The few encounters that I've had with Israelis in the US over the years, the vast
14:4014 minutes, 40 secondsmajority support Israel, support Israel's actions. It's interesting that you mentioned that because I
14:4814 minutes, 48 secondsan email from someone who is representing a group of alumni of Jewish Day Schools.
14:5614 minutes, 56 secondsThese are Zionist schools all over countries where they indoctrinate the worst Zionism:
15:0315 minutes, 3 secondssecular Zionism. And they are now appalled by the indoctrination to serve in the IDF. And a
15:1215 minutes, 12 secondsvery high percentage of these students grew up, went to Israel, joined the IDF, and took part in
15:2115 minutes, 21 secondsAPEC events and so on. And now they're looking back and they're reflecting and they're feeling a sense of anger that they were put through this and lied through their entire lives about this.
15:3015 minutes, 30 secondsSo that's an interesting development. And if that grows, then that might be a game changer because
15:3915 minutes, 39 secondsthese are the most loyal American Jews. The most loyal to Israel. But by and large, Israelis that
15:4515 minutes, 45 secondsI meet, with few exceptions, support Israel and they're here for whatever reasons people
15:5215 minutes, 52 secondscome to America: They're not unique, they're not necessarily here because they were fed up or they were angry, or they were dissenters in any way, shape, or form. Around DC and Maryland,
16:0316 minutes, 3 secondsthere are many Israelis. Sometimes you'll sit in a coffee shop or go somewhere, you hear the conversations, and there's no lack of support for Israel among these Israelis as far as I can see.
Chapter 5: IDF indoctrination
16:1316 minutes, 13 secondsLet's talk about the armies. You were in the Special Forces elite unit. Talk about that
16:2116 minutes, 21 secondsindoctrination. I remember visiting Auschwitz a few years ago, and there were Israeli groups
16:2816 minutes, 28 secondsand people were flying Israeli flags. But speak about that form of indoctrination and it's link,
16:3616 minutes, 36 secondsin particular, to the Holocaust. The myth is that Israel is a response
16:4216 minutes, 42 secondsto the Holocaust. And that the IDF is a response to the Holocaust; We must be strong, we must be
16:4816 minutes, 48 secondswilling to fight, we must always have a gun in one hand or a weapon in one hand so that this will
16:5616 minutes, 56 secondsnever happen again. And what's interesting is, when you talk to Holocaust survivors who are not
17:0117 minutes, 1 secondindoctrinated, who did not get pulled into Zionism -- Which there are very, very many -- They'll say
17:0917 minutes, 9 secondsthe notion that a militarized state is somehow the answer to the Holocaust is absurd because the answer to the Holocaust is tolerance and education and humanity, not violence and
17:1917 minutes, 19 secondsracism. But nobody wants to ruin a good myth with the actual facts. So that's the story.
17:2917 minutes, 29 secondsThe story is because of Auschwitz, we represent all those that were killed, perished by the
17:3817 minutes, 38 secondsNazis and so on, and therefore we need to be strong. And the Israeli flag represents them, and the Israeli military represents them. It's absurd, it's absolute madness. I went to serve
17:4917 minutes, 49 secondsin the army willingly, as most young Israelis do. In my environment, refusing or not going was not
17:5917 minutes, 59 secondsheard of, although there were some voices in the wilderness that were refusing and questioning the
18:0618 minutes, 6 secondsmorality. But I never did. Nobody around me ever did until I began the training and you
18:1318 minutes, 13 secondsbegan patrolling. I remember -- You and I may have talked about this once -- We were
18:2118 minutes, 21 secondsan infantry unit, a commando infantry unit. And suddenly we were given batons and these plastic handcuffs and were told to patrol in Ramallah. And I'm going, what the hell's going on? What
18:3118 minutes, 31 secondsare we doing here? And then we're told if anybody looks at you funny, you break every bone in their body. And I thought, everybody's going to look at us, we're commandos
18:4018 minutes, 40 secondswhile marching through a city. Who's not going to look at us? I was behind. I didn't realize that
18:4718 minutes, 47 secondseverybody already understood that this is how it is, this is how it's supposed to be. I thought, wait, this is wrong. Why are we doing this? We're supposed to be the good guys here.
18:5518 minutes, 55 secondsAnd then there was the Lebanon invasion of '82 and so on. So that broke that in my mind,
19:0119 minutes, 1 secondthat was a serious crack in the wall of belief and the wall of patriotism that was in me. But
19:1019 minutes, 10 secondsthis whole notion that somehow being violent and militaristic and racist and being conquerors is
19:1919 minutes, 19 secondssomehow a response to the horrors of the Holocaust is absolute madness. But when you're in it nobody
19:2819 minutes, 28 secondsaround you is asking questions. You don't ask questions either, unless you're willing to stand out and be smacked on the head. Within the military, within the IDF,
Chapter 6: Racism
19:3819 minutes, 38 secondshow did they speak about Palestinians and Arabs? The discourse, the hatred, the racism,
19:4619 minutes, 46 secondsis horrifying. First of all, they're the animals. They're nothing. It's a joke,
19:5519 minutes, 55 secondsyou see, it's horrifying. They think it's funny to stop people and ask them for their ID and to
20:0220 minutes, 2 secondschase them and to chase kids and to shoot. It all seems like entertainment, you know? I
20:0820 minutes, 8 secondsnever heard that discourse until I was in it. Then afterwards, when I would meet Israelis who served,
20:1720 minutes, 17 secondseven here in the US, the way they joked around about what they did in the West Bank, the way they joked around about killing or stopping people or making them take their
20:2520 minutes, 25 secondsclothes off and dance naked, it's entertainment. They think it's funny. They don't see that there's
20:3120 minutes, 31 secondsa problem here because the racism is so ingrained from such a young age that it's almost organic.
20:4020 minutes, 40 secondsAnd I don't think it's surprising, I think when you have a racist society, and you have a racist
20:4520 minutes, 45 secondseducation system that is so methodical, that's what you get. And the racism doesn't stop with
20:5220 minutes, 52 secondsPalestinians or with Arabs; It goes on to the Black people, it goes on to people of color, it goes to Jews or Israelis who come from other countries who are dark skinned, for some reason.
21:0321 minutes, 3 secondsThe racism crosses all these boundaries and it's completely part of the culture.
Chapter 7: IDF
21:1121 minutes, 11 secondsYou have very little criticism of the IDF, almost none within the Israeli press, although there is
21:1921 minutes, 19 secondsquite a bit of criticism right now, of Netanyahu and his mismanagement and his corruption. Talk a
21:2721 minutes, 27 secondslittle bit about the deification of the IDF within the public discourse and mainstream media and what
21:3921 minutes, 39 secondsthat means for what's happening in Gaza. Well, the military is above the law. It's
21:4521 minutes, 45 secondsabove reproach, except from time to time. So after the '73 war, there was an investigation.
21:5521 minutes, 55 secondsAnd now there has been, just earlier this week, there was, in the cabinet meeting,
22:0022 minutesthe cabinet meets every Sunday. And the army chief of staff was there and he was, apparently, this
22:0622 minutes, 6 secondswas leaked from the meeting, a cabinet meeting. It was leaked that some of the more right-wing
22:1322 minutes, 13 secondspartners, it's funny to say right-wing partners because they're all this right-wing lunacy in the
22:1822 minutes, 18 secondsIsraeli cabinet. But the more right-wing settlers that are in the cabinet were attacking the army,
22:2522 minutes, 25 secondswere attacking the chief of staff because I guess he decided to start an inquiry because there
22:3022 minutes, 30 secondswas a, it was catastrophic when the Palestinian fighters came in from Gaza, there was nobody home.
22:3722 minutes, 37 secondsThey took over half of their country back. They took twenty-two Israeli settlements and cities. They took over the army base of the Gaza brigade, which is supposed to defend the country from
22:4822 minutes, 48 secondsexactly this happening. And there was nobody in the, they took over the base. So he began, I guess, or he initiated an internal inquiry within the army, and they're criticizing him.
22:5922 minutes, 59 secondsAnd what you see in the Israeli press is two very interesting things. One is, yes, there was this,
23:0623 minutes, 6 secondssomething went horribly wrong and we need to find out why, but we should wait because we shouldn't do it during wartime. We shouldn't criticize the army during wartime. We shouldn't
23:1623 minutes, 16 secondsmake the soldiers feel like they have to hold back because if they need to shoot, they should be allowed to shoot. And the other thing we see is that politically,
23:2423 minutes, 24 secondseverybody is eating each other up. I mean, they're killing each other politically in the press. So of course, everybody that's against Netanyahu and wants to see it is attacking him.
23:3523 minutes, 35 secondsHis people are attacking the others for attacking the government. I mean, there's this complete,
23:4223 minutes, 42 secondsit seems like there's this paralysis as a result of this infighting that is definitely affecting
23:4723 minutes, 47 secondsthe functionality of the state as a state. Israelis are not living in the country, Israel
23:5323 minutes, 53 secondsis not the state that it was prior to October 7th, it was paralyzed for several weeks, and now it's
23:5923 minutes, 59 secondsstill paralyzed in many ways. You've got missiles coming from the north, you've got missiles coming
24:0524 minutes, 5 secondsfrom the south. You've got very large numbers of Israeli soldiers being killed and thousands being
24:1024 minutes, 10 secondsinjured and the war, and it's not ending. They're not able to defeat the Palestinians in Gaza, the armed resistance and so on. So all of this is taking place,
24:1924 minutes, 19 secondsand you read the Israeli press and it's just like this cesspool that's bubbling and bubbling and bubbling, and everybody's attacking everybody else. And the army, like you said, it's true,
24:3024 minutes, 30 secondsthey are above reproach mostly, but from time to time, like I said, this particular time,
24:3524 minutes, 35 secondsthe settlers are very angry because, also another reason is because I guess the chief of staff, the military decided to pull back some of the ground troops, understandably, since they're being
24:4524 minutes, 45 secondshit so hard. And I remember that happening before when the army pulled back out of Gaza, they were
24:5124 minutes, 51 secondsbeing attacked for stopping the killing, for not continuing these mass killings of Palestinians.
Chapter 8: Golani Brigade
24:5924 minutes, 59 secondsWell, you had what? 70 fatalities in the Golani Brigade, I think. And they
25:0525 minutes, 5 secondswere pulled back. This is a very elite unit. Yeah, it's very interesting because many of
25:1025 minutes, 10 secondsthe casualties are high-ranking officers. You have colonels, lieutenant colonels, very high-ranking commanders within Israeli special forces are being killed. And they're
25:2025 minutes, 20 secondsusually killed in big bunches, like you say, in big bunches because they'll be in an armored
25:2625 minutes, 26 secondspersonnel carrier or they'll be marching together. And in Jenin, just recently also a few days ago,
25:3425 minutes, 34 secondsthey blew up a military vehicle and killed a bunch of soldiers. So Israelis are, I think,
25:4325 minutes, 43 secondsscratching their heads, not knowing what the hell is going on and what to do, because number one,
25:4825 minutes, 48 secondsthey were not protected as they thought they were. And I'm sure you know this, the Israeli
25:5425 minutes, 54 secondssettlements, the kibbutzim, the cities in the south that border Gaza, [inaudible 00:25:59],
26:0126 minutes, 1 secondthey enjoy some of the highest standards of living among Israelis. It's a beautiful lifestyle. It's
26:0526 minutes, 5 secondswarm, it's lovely. Agriculture is, and I don't think it ever occurred to them that Palestinians
26:1226 minutes, 12 secondswould dare to come out of Gaza fighting and succeeding the way they did. And that the army, I mean the army was bankrupt. It was gone, the intelligence apparatus, bankrupt,
26:2226 minutes, 22 secondsnothing worked. And it is reminiscent of what happened in 1973, I mean, this is far worse,
26:2826 minutes, 28 secondsbut it is reminiscent. And I don't think it's a coincidence that October 7th attacks were exactly
26:3426 minutes, 34 seconds50 years and one day after the 1973 October war began, and the whole system collapsed. So that's
26:4126 minutes, 41 secondswhat we're seeing right now. How do you read what's happening in Gaza, militarily? Well, clearly the Palestinians are able to hold
Chapter 9: Gaza militarily
26:4926 minutes, 49 secondson and kill many Israelis. And even though the Israelis have the firepower and they've got the logistics, obviously they've got supply chains are not a problem. Whereas Palestinians, I don't know
26:5926 minutes, 59 secondswhere they're getting supplies. I don't know where they're getting food even to continue fighting. They're obviously putting up a fierce resistance. I don't think that militarily, there's a strategy
27:1027 minutes, 10 secondshere. I mean, this is revenge. This is just, Israel was humiliated, the army was humiliated,
27:1627 minutes, 16 secondsand they needed to take it out on somebody. So they found the weakest victims they could lay their hands on, and these are the Palestinian civilians in Gaza. And so they're killing them by
27:2627 minutes, 26 secondsthe tens of thousands. I don't think anybody believes in such a thing as getting rid of
27:3227 minutes, 32 secondsHamas. I don't think anybody really believes that that's possible. I don't believe anybody takes seriously or actually believes that you can take too many people out of Gaza
27:4127 minutes, 41 secondsand spread them around the world and into other places, even though that's what they're saying.
27:4627 minutes, 46 secondsBut as long as Israel is allowed to kill, and as long as the supply chain isn't interrupted,
27:5327 minutes, 53 secondsthey're going to continue to kill. And they're also, of course, creating a humanitarian crisis. So it's not just the bombs and the shells,
Chapter 10: Gaza humanitarian crisis
28:0328 minutes, 3 secondsbut it's now starvation. Diarrhea is an epidemic, sanitation is broken. I'm wondering at what point
28:1328 minutes, 13 secondsthis humanitarian crisis becomes so pronounced that really the choice is you leave or you die.
28:2128 minutes, 21 secondsThat's always the big question for Palestinians. And the sad thing is that Palestinians are always being placed in these situations where they have to make that choice. It's the worst form of
28:2928 minutes, 29 secondsinjustice. And you know this, you've been in war zones. I mean, we don't know how many bodies are
28:3628 minutes, 36 secondsburied under the rubble and what that's going to bring up. And there are hundreds of thousands now, like you said, that are suffering from all kinds of diseases as a result of this environmental
28:4628 minutes, 46 secondscatastrophe. And you remember, what was it? 2016 or something, 2017, the UN came out with a report
28:5228 minutes, 52 secondsthat by 2020, Gaza would be uninhabitable. I don't think the Gaza Strip has ever been inhabitable. It's been a humanitarian disaster since it was created in the early fifties, late forties,
29:0229 minutes, 2 secondsearly fifties. Because they suddenly threw all these refugees there with no infrastructure and
29:0729 minutes, 7 secondsthat was it, and then began killing them. So it's a question, and I was talking to
29:1429 minutes, 14 secondssome people the other day, as Americans, as taxpayers, wouldn't we want the Sixth Fleet,
29:2229 minutes, 22 secondswhich is in the Mediterranean, the US Navy's Sixth Fleet, to aid the Palestinians? To provide
29:2729 minutes, 27 secondsthem support? To create a no-fly zone over these innocent people that are being massacred? I mean,
29:3329 minutes, 33 secondsas Americans, isn't that the natural, shouldn't that be the natural ask? The natural desire to demand our politicians to use, because American naval vessels have been used for humanitarian
29:4429 minutes, 44 secondscauses before. Why aren't they supporting the Palestinians? Why aren't they providing them aid? Why aren't they helping them rebuild? Why are American tax dollars going to continue this
29:5529 minutes, 55 secondsgenocide rather than stop it and aid the victims? I think these are questions Americans need to ask
30:0230 minutes, 2 secondsthemselves because it makes absolutely no sense. It is absolute madness that people are allowing
30:0730 minutes, 7 secondstheir government to support a genocide that's not even done in secret. It's not even done in
30:1330 minutes, 13 secondshiding it. It's on prime time. Everybody sees it. Everybody knows what's going on. And again,
30:1930 minutes, 19 secondsfor some strange reason, Americans are allowing their military and their government to aid
30:2530 minutes, 25 secondsthe genocide. And there's no question, I mean, there's no question that it's genocide. I mean, the definition of the crime of genocide is so absolutely clear, anybody can look
30:3330 minutes, 33 secondsit up and compare it to what's been going on in Palestine. So that to me is really the greatest questions. Why aren't Americans demanding that the US support the Palestinians?
30:4330 minutes, 43 secondsWell, according to opinion polls, most Americans want a ceasefire. But the Congress is bought and
30:4930 minutes, 49 secondspaid for by the Israel lobby. Biden is one of the largest recipients of aid or campaign
30:5630 minutes, 56 secondsfinancing from the Israel lobby. And this is true within both parties. I mean, Chuck
31:0331 minutes, 3 secondsSchumer was at the rally saying, no ceasefire. Which is odd. I mean, a ceasefire, I mean,
31:1031 minutes, 10 secondsI think ceasefire is a very small ask, and I don't know why Palestinians, we always ask for the bare minimum for Palestinians. But let's talk about ceasefire. I mean,
31:1831 minutes, 18 secondsIsraeli soldiers are being killed as well in very large numbers. How has ceasefire suddenly
31:2331 minutes, 23 secondsbecome an anti-Israeli demand? But I think that it's a very small ask. I don't know how it was
31:3131 minutes, 31 secondsor where it was that this idea of demanding just a ceasefire came up because that is really not a
31:4031 minutes, 40 secondsserious demand. Ceasefire gets violated by Israel anyway, within 24-48 hours. I mean, you know that,
31:4731 minutes, 47 secondshistorically Israel always violated ceasefires. What is required here are severe sanctions,
31:5331 minutes, 53 secondsa no-fly zone, immediate aid to the Palestinians, and stopping this and providing guarantees for
32:0232 minutes, 2 secondsthe safety and security of Palestinians forever moving forward so this can never happen again.
32:0732 minutes, 7 secondsThat's what really needs to be the ask. At this point, after having sacrificed so much,
32:1432 minutes, 14 secondsafter having shown such, what I believe is immense courage, Palestinians deserve everything.
32:2232 minutes, 22 secondsWe as people of conscience need to demand not to ceasefire, we need to demand a dismantling of the
32:2832 minutes, 28 secondsapartheid state and a full stop and end absolute end to the genocide and guarantees put in place
32:3432 minutes, 34 secondsthat Palestinian kids will be safe. I mean, I was talking to Issa Amro earlier in Hebron. I mean, it's ridiculous when nobody even talks about what happens in the West Bank. Friends of mine
32:4432 minutes, 44 secondswho are Palestinian citizens of Israel, nobody dares to leave the house, nobody dares to text. They're afraid to walk down the streets. Their safety is not guaranteed by anyone.
32:5332 minutes, 53 secondsPalestinian safety and security is left to the whims of any Israeli, and that should be
33:0033 minutesthe conversation right now, after such horrendous violence. That needs to be the demand, that needs
33:0533 minutes, 5 secondsto be the ask when we go to protests, when we make these demands, ceasefire, and even that, Israel is
33:1333 minutes, 13 secondsnot willing. And like you said, these [inaudible 00:33:15] political supporters of Israel here in
33:1633 minutes, 16 secondsAmerica are not willing to entertain a ceasefire. I believe it's really a crazy part of history that
33:2733 minutes, 27 secondswe're experiencing right now, and I think it's a watershed moment. I think October 7th created
33:3233 minutes, 32 secondsan opportunity to end this for good, to end the suffering of Palestinians, the oppression, and the
33:3733 minutes, 37 secondsgenocide for good. And if we don't take advantage, again, we being people of conscience, if we don't
33:4333 minutes, 43 secondstake advantage of this now and bring it to an end, this will be, we will regret this for generations.
Chapter 11: Israels assault on Gaza
33:5133 minutes, 51 secondsThe Netanyahu government is talking about this assault on Gaza, this genocide continuing for
33:5833 minutes, 58 secondsmonths. There are strikes, have been strikes against, now Hezbollah leaders. What concerns
34:0734 minutes, 7 secondsyou? I mean, how could this all go terribly wrong? I mean, it's already gone terribly wrong because
34:1334 minutes, 13 secondsof death and destruction of so many innocent lives is, I don't even know that there's a word
34:1934 minutes, 19 secondsfor it. It's beyond horrifying. I think that, I think Netanyahu is relying on the restraint
34:2734 minutes, 27 secondsof Hezbollah and the restraint of Iran and the restraint, of course, the Arab governments have
34:3334 minutes, 33 secondsall been neutralized either through destruct, being destroyed or through normalization. So he's relying on that, and he knows that he can keep triggering, he can keep bombing Lebanon,
34:4234 minutes, 42 secondsbombing Syria, instigating all of these things and it won't turn into an all-out war. Because at the
34:5034 minutes, 50 secondsend of the day, even though the Hezbollah fighters have shown, Lebanese fighters and Hezbollah and the Palestinian fighters have shown that they're superior as fighters,
34:5834 minutes, 58 secondsthey don't have the supply chains, they don't have the warplanes, they don't have the tanks. So more and more civilians are going to be hurt. So I don't think it's going to turn into a
35:0635 minutes, 6 secondsregional war by any stretch of the imagination. And so Netanyahu is betting on that, and that's
35:1135 minutes, 11 secondswhy he's allowing this to go on. And for him, this is a win-win. I mean, there's no way that he can
35:1835 minutes, 18 secondsbe unseated by anybody that's around him. There's really no opposition. And as long as this goes on,
35:2535 minutes, 25 secondsas long as everybody's in a state of crisis, he can continue to sit in the Prime Minister's seat,
35:3135 minutes, 31 secondswhich for him is the end all and be all of everything. And look, the world is supporting, the
35:3735 minutes, 37 secondsworld, as governments of the world, I should say. I do interviews with African TV stations,
35:4435 minutes, 44 secondsIndian TV stations, Europeans, everybody is supporting Israel. Everybody listens to what I
35:5035 minutes, 50 secondshave to say, and they think I am a lunatic for supporting terrorism or whatever it is they,
35:5535 minutes, 55 secondshowever it is that they frame it. But I don't think anything good, I don't see this ending
36:0336 minutes, 3 secondsunless there is massive pressure by people of conscience on their governments to force change,
36:1136 minutes, 11 secondsto force sanctions, to force the end of the genocide and the end of the apartheid state.
Chapter 12: The rise of religious Zionism
36:1636 minutes, 16 secondsI want to talk about the shift within Zionism itself from the dominance of a secular leadership
36:2236 minutes, 22 secondsto, we see it of course in the government of Netanyahu, the rise of a religious Zionism, which
36:2936 minutes, 29 secondsis also true now within the IDF. And I wondered if you could talk about the consequences of that?
36:3636 minutes, 36 secondsSure. So originally, traditionally, historically, Zionism and Judaism were at odds. And even to
36:4436 minutes, 44 secondsthis day, as you know, ultra-orthodox Jews reject Zionism and reject Israel by and large. But after
36:5036 minutes, 50 seconds1967, there was this new creation of the Zionist religious movement. And these are the settlers
36:5936 minutes, 59 secondswho went to the West Bank and they became the new pioneers. And they are today, they make up a large
37:0537 minutes, 5 secondsportion of the officers and those who joined the special forces and so on. And in the past,
37:1137 minutes, 11 secondsin the army, the unofficial policy was that these guys, they should not be allowed to advance. The
37:2237 minutes, 22 secondscurrent chief of staff comes from that world, which is a huge change. And there are several generals, and of course commanders, high-ranking commanders and so on who come from that world. And
37:3237 minutes, 32 secondsthe reason that it was the unofficial policy that these guys should not be promoted was that it's
37:4137 minutes, 41 secondsan incredibly toxic combination, this messianic form of Judaism, which is really an aberration.
37:4937 minutes, 49 secondsIt's not Judaism at all, with this nationalist fanaticism. This combination is toxic and look
37:5937 minutes, 59 secondswhat it created. It created some of the worst racists, some of the most violent thugs that we've seen, certainly in the short history of the state of Israel, although I don't know that
38:0838 minutes, 8 secondsthey're any less violent than the generation of Zionists of my father who are secular. But this
38:1638 minutes, 16 secondswas a big concern in the past but now they're everywhere and of course, look at its current government. They hold the finance ministry, they hold the national security ministry,
38:2538 minutes, 25 secondscertainly in the military they're everywhere. And they hold many sub-cabinet, and they're
38:3238 minutes, 32 secondsheads of committees in the Knesset and so on. And they've done their work. I mean, they worked very hard to get to where they are today, which is where they call the shots. And they are really,
38:4138 minutes, 41 secondsNetanyahu's guaranteed to remain in power. They're his support group. That's why you
38:4838 minutes, 48 secondscould have had, as we had earlier this year, hundreds of thousands of Israelis protesting in the streets and it didn't affect him because he has his block in the Knesset that will never
38:5838 minutes, 58 secondsleave him as long as he allows them to play their game. And this is what's happening. So in terms
39:0539 minutes, 5 secondsof violence and the actual facts on the ground, I don't think these guys are any worse again than my
39:1139 minutes, 11 secondsparents' generation who were young Zionists and zealots at the time and committed the 1948 Nakba
39:1839 minutes, 18 secondsand ran the country for the first and operated the apartheid state for the first few decades.
39:2439 minutes, 24 secondsBut it's definitely a new form of fanaticism being that it is religious as well as fascist. So it's
39:3439 minutes, 34 secondsvery toxic. And I think they have a stomach, more of a stomach for killing civilians than we've ever
39:4139 minutes, 41 secondsseen before, even for Israelis. I mean, this is new, this is, these numbers are just beyond,
39:4839 minutes, 48 secondsthese numbers are beyond belief, even for Israel. I'm wondering if this religious Zionism probably
Chapter 13: The impact of religious Zionism in Israel
39:5439 minutes, 54 secondshas its profoundest effect within Israel, in terms of shutting down dissidents, civil liberties, this kind of stuff. Well, Israelis love them. Israelis love
40:0440 minutes, 4 secondsthese guys because they're religious, but they dress like us. They don't look like the old Jews with the big beards and everything. They're kind of cool. They wear jeans. And the reason I say
40:1440 minutes, 14 secondsthis is because one of the things, one of their objectives is to take over Al-Aqsa and build a
40:2040 minutes, 20 secondsJewish temple. They're destroying Al-Aqsa and so they conduct these tours. And you may know this,
40:2640 minutes, 26 secondsin the old city of Jerusalem, there's a particular path that you take from where the western wall is up to Al-Aqsa, which is open for non-Muslims. And so they hold tours
40:3640 minutes, 36 secondsand there's several odd times throughout the day, and I've taken some of these tours, just to see what it's about, what these guys do, you know? These are basically prayer tours. And they've
40:4740 minutes, 47 secondstaken, hundreds of thousands of Israelis go on these tours. And these are Israelis who are not religious at all. These are secular people. I mean, I see the people that go on the tours
40:5740 minutes, 57 secondsand you go up that bridge, just to give you an idea of what this is about. You go up on that
41:0441 minutes, 4 secondsbridge and then you wait until the tour starts because you have to go in a group. And there's
41:0941 minutes, 9 secondsa massive model of the new temple, of the Jewish temple that is going to be built there. And then
41:1541 minutes, 15 secondsyou have a huge group of armed police. They're not soldiers, they're police,
41:2441 minutes, 24 secondsbut dressed like, completely militarized that accompany the tour all around. And of course,
41:3041 minutes, 30 secondsMuslim Palestinians are not allowed, they accompany the tour all around. And they stop and they pray and they stop and they pray and they stop and pray at various places,
41:3741 minutes, 37 secondsthe whole thing takes maybe an hour. But the interesting thing is that the people that go on these tours are secular Israelis. And then as I was doing this, I was remembering it, even
41:4741 minutes, 47 secondsas a kid growing up completely secular, we would sing songs about the day that we build a temple.
41:5541 minutes, 55 secondsWhy did we sing songs about building a temple? Because I think it went beyond our religious significance, and it became a national significance. And there's no question in
42:0442 minutes, 4 secondsmy mind that Netanyahu, when secular Israelis are, would love to see this idea of destroying
42:0942 minutes, 9 secondsAl-Aqsa and having a Jewish temple there. It's a sign that we're back, King David is back. And the connection, even though it has nothing to do with history and there's no truth in it,
42:1942 minutes, 19 secondsthe connection that we are descendants of King David is something Israelis really love. That's
42:2442 minutes, 24 secondsreally what this is about so the relationship between the settlers, the so-called settlers,
42:3042 minutes, 30 secondsthat's what they're called in Israeli jargon. They're called the settlers, and regular secular Israelis is an interesting one because on the one hand, they're looked down upon because
42:4042 minutes, 40 secondsthey're religious, but on the other hand, they're kind of cool religious. So there is an affinity. Great. That was Miko Peled, author of The General's Son: Journey of an
42:4942 minutes, 49 secondsIsraeli in Palestine and Injustice: The Story of the Holy Land Foundation Five.
42:5642 minutes, 56 secondsI want to thank the Real News Network and its production team, Cameron Granandino, Adam Coley, David Hebden, and Kayla Rivara. You can find me at: chrishedges.substack.com.
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