Marwan Barghouti's long walk to Palestine's freedom
+972 Magazine
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Over 9,000 Palestinians are currently being held in Israeli prisons and military detention centers. While the majority of their names will be unfamiliar to most, the name of one Palestinian prisoner stands out above all others: Marwan Barghouti. Decades behind bars haven’t dimmed his influence—thanks, in part, to his family’s tireless advocacy. His son Arab Barghouti shares how Marwan’s life embodies both the ordinary struggles of countless Palestinians and the extraordinary impact of one man’s unwavering vision for his people.
0:00 - Introduction
03:57 - Recent developments in Marwan Barghouti’s detention
15:53 - Free Marwan
20:50 - Hopes for Marwan Barghouti’s release
27:50 - The trial he refused to recognize
31:30 - Armed resistance
36:26 - Public support and political direction
42:34 - The state of Palestinian politics today
45:50 - Beyond the “Palestinian Mandela” analogy
Theme music by Ghassan Birumi
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<마르완 바르구티: 팔레스타인의 자유를 향한 긴 여정> 요약 및 평론
1. 요약: 마르완 바르구티의 삶과 정치적 상징성
<+972 매거진>의 팟캐스트 인터뷰는 이스라엘 감옥에 20년 넘게 수감 중인 팔레스타인의 상징적 지도자 마르완 바르구티의 아들, 아랍 바르구티와의 대화를 통해 그의 현재 상태와 정치적 의미를 조명한다. 현재 9,000명 이상의 팔레스타인인이 이스라엘에 구금되어 있으며, 바르구티는 그들 중 가장 영향력 있는 인물로 꼽힌다.
바르구티는 1967년 이스라엘이 요르단 강 서안 지구를 점령하던 당시 7세였으며, 어린 시절부터 점령의 폭력성을 목격하며 성장했다. 15세에 파타(Fatah) 운동에 가담한 이후 학생 운동과 제1차 인티파다를 거치며 팔레스타인 정치의 중심 인물로 부상했다. 초기에는 오슬로 협정을 통한 평화 프로세스에 낙관적이었으나, 이스라엘의 정착촌 확장이 계속되자 실망을 느끼고 제2차 인티파다의 주요 지도자가 되었다. 그는 점령에 맞서 무장 저항을 포함한 팔레스타인의 저항권을 주장했으며, 2002년 이스라엘군에 체포되어 5회의 종신형과 40년형을 선고받았다.
인터뷰에 따르면, 2023년 10월 7일 사건 이후 바르구티에 대한 대우는 더욱 가혹해졌다. 아랍 바르구티는 아버지가 여러 차례 폭행을 당해 갈비뼈와 치아가 부러졌으며, 극심한 기아와 독방 감금에 시달리고 있다고 전한다. 이스라엘의 극우 정치인 이타마르 벤-그비르 국가안보부 장관은 감옥 내 바르구티를 찾아가 협박하는 영상을 공개하며 그를 모욕하려 했다. 아랍은 이스라엘 정부가 바르구티를 '보안 위협'이 아닌 '정치적 위협'으로 간주하기 때문에 그를 타깃으로 삼는다고 주장한다. 바르구티는 파편화된 팔레스타인 국민을 통합할 수 있는 유일한 인물이며, 이스라엘은 바로 그 '통합의 힘'을 두려워한다는 것이다.
바르구티는 수감 중에도 2006년 모든 정파가 합의한 <수감자 문서(Prisoners' Document)>를 주도하며 1967년 국경에 기초한 독립 국가 건설이라는 비전을 제시했다. 그는 비록 무장 저항을 옹호했으나, 민간인 공격에는 반대하며 국제법에 근거한 정치적 해결을 최우선으로 둔다. 현재 그는 여론조사에서 마무드 아바스나 하마스 지도자들을 제치고 압도적인 지지율 1위를 기록하고 있다.
2. 평론: '팔레스타인의 만델라'라는 수식어 그 너머
마르완 바르구티를 '팔레스타인의 만델라'라고 부르는 것은 강력한 상징성을 지니지만, 동시에 팔레스타인이 처한 복잡한 현실을 단순화할 위험이 있다. 남아프리카공화국의 아파르트헤이트 종식 과정과 달리, 현재 팔레스타인은 통일된 해방 운동 체계가 부재하며 이스라엘 정치는 평화 협상 파트너로서의 동력을 상실한 상태다.
바르구티의 위대함은 단순히 수감 기간이나 고난에서 오는 것이 아니라, 그가 가진 '도덕적 정당성'과 '정치적 통찰력'의 결합에서 나온다. 그는 스스로 "내 민족의 자유를 위한 대가가 나의 자유라면 기꺼이 지불하겠다"고 선언하며 행동으로 이를 증명했다. 특히 그가 감옥 안에서 4개 국어를 구사하고 수많은 책을 읽으며 이스라엘 정치를 깊이 이해하고 있다는 점은, 그가 단순한 투사가 아닌 준비된 국가 지도자임을 시사한다.
아랍 바르구티가 지적하듯, 이스라엘이 바르구티의 석방을 거부하는 이유는 그가 '극단주의자'라서가 아니라 '대화가 가능한 강력한 지도자'이기 때문이다. 이스라엘 우익 정부는 "대화할 상대가 없다"는 명분을 유지하기 위해 바르구티처럼 정당성을 가진 온건 중도파 지도자를 고립시키는 전략을 취해왔다. 이는 팔레스타인 내부의 분열을 조장하고 민주적 선거를 가로막는 결과로 이어졌다.
결국 바르구티의 문제는 개인의 석방 문제를 넘어 팔레스타인 민주주의의 회복과 직결된다. 2021년 예정되었던 선거가 취소된 것은 팔레스타인 정치 시스템이 얼마나 마비되었는지를 보여주는 단면이다. 젊은 세대는 부패한 기존 권위주의 체제에 환멸을 느끼면서도, 여전히 바르구티라는 인물에게서 희망을 찾는다. 그는 과거의 유산인 오슬로 체제에 뿌리를 두고 있으면서도, 점령에 타협하지 않는 강단과 미래 비전을 동시에 갖춘 유일한 대안으로 인식되기 때문이다.
마르완 바르구티의 자유는 곧 팔레스타인 정치의 정상화를 의미한다. 그가 감옥에서 나와 손주들을 만나고 평범한 삶을 살기를 바라는 아들의 소망은, 곧 모든 팔레스타인인이 갈망하는 '품격 있는 삶'과 '주권적 자유'의 상징이다. 이스라엘과 국제사회가 진정으로 이 지역의 평화를 원한다면, 그들은 '길들여진 파트너'가 아닌 '민중의 지지를 받는 지도자'와 마주할 용기를 가져야 할 것이다.
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Transcript
Chapter 1: Introduction
0:00[music]
0:033 secondsWelcome to the plus 972 podcast. Your direct line to the journalists,
0:099 secondsthinkers, and activists struggling for justice in Israel Palestine. I'm Ben Raefe, deputy editor at 972 magazine and
0:1717 secondsyour host for today's episode. Our podcast grounds the discussion in lived realities to bring you closer to the issues that matter most between the
0:2626 secondsriver and the sea. Before we dive in, a quick reminder that what we do would not be possible without you, our readers and
0:3333 secondslisteners. If you believe in our mission and would like to support our work, head over to 972mmag.com/members
0:4141 secondsand find out how to become a member of 972 or make a one-off contribution.
0:4848 seconds[music]
0:5151 secondsOver 9,000 Palestinians are currently being held in Israeli prisons and military detention centers, many of them
0:5858 secondswithout charge or trial. An additional 2,000 were released in October as part of the Gaza ceasefire deal between
1:051 minute, 5 secondsIsrael and Hamas. So vast is the scale of Israel's incarceration enterprise that around 40% of Palestinian men in
1:131 minute, 13 secondsthe occupied territories have been imprisoned or detained at least once in their lives. While the majority of their names will be unfamiliar to most, the
1:221 minute, 22 secondsname of one Palestinian prisoner stands out above all others. Marwan Barguti.
1:281 minute, 28 secondsBorn in the village of Kobar near Ramla in the then Jordanian occupied West Bank, Barguti was 7 years old when
1:351 minute, 35 secondsIsrael seized the territory in the 1967 war. Military bases and Jewish settlements soon sprung up around his village. Neighbors were beaten or
1:441 minute, 44 secondsarrested for flying Palestinian flags and Israeli soldiers shot the Bargoti family's dog for barking. At 15, Baruti
1:521 minute, 52 secondsjoins the Palestinian political movement Fatakah and was briefly jailed for the first time. He subsequently co-founded Fatas youth wing became a prominent
2:012 minutes, 1 secondstudent organizer and spent four years in prison from the age of 18. After the first inifada broke out in the late
2:082 minutes, 8 seconds1980s, he was deported to Jordan before returning to Palestine amid the Oslo Accords of the '90s during which he was
2:152 minutes, 15 secondselected to the newly formed Palestinian Legislative Council. Despite his initial optimism, he grew disillusioned with the
2:232 minutes, 23 secondspeace process as Israeli settlement construction wound up rather than down.
2:272 minutes, 27 secondsWhen negotiations collapsed and the second inif broke out in the early 2000s, he became one of its primary leaders, asserting the right of Palestinians to resist occupation,
2:382 minutes, 38 secondsincluding by force of arms. After surviving at least one Israeli assassination attempt, he was arrested in 2002 as Israeli forces besieged
2:472 minutes, 47 secondsRamla. He was tried in an Israeli courts in what his family and lawyers have described as a show trial and eventually
2:542 minutes, 54 secondsconvicted of five counts of murder and membership in a terrorist organization and sentenced to five life terms plus 40
3:023 minutes, 2 secondsyears in prison. But has served his sentence in multiple prisons, often in solitary confinement. Still, he has
3:103 minutes, 10 secondsremained politically active, continuing to espouse opposition to Israel's occupation and support for the establishment of a Palestinian state on the 1967 borders.
3:203 minutes, 20 secondsOver time, he has become an almost mythical figure in Palestinian politics,
3:253 minutes, 25 secondsconsistently topping public opinion polls for hypothetical presidential elections, demonstrating an unparalleled ability to unify a deeply fragmented
3:343 minutes, 34 secondspopulation. Yet, despite Hamas proposing his name for release amid recent Gaza ceasefire negotiations, he remains
3:423 minutes, 42 secondsbehind bars. Israel's prison authorities have prevented Marwan from speaking to the media for over a decade. But today,
3:493 minutes, 49 secondsI'm speaking to his son, Arab, who is helping to lead the campaign for his release. Thanks for joining us, Arab. Thank you so much for having me.
Chapter 2: Recent developments in Marwan Barghouti’s detention
3:573 minutes, 57 secondsSo, let's start with the most recent developments. In December, your brother received a phone call from someone claiming they had recently been released
4:054 minutes, 5 secondsfrom prison, informing him that Israeli guards had brutally tortured your father, breaking his ribs and teeth and cutting off part of his ear. What can
4:144 minutes, 14 secondsyou tell us about this phone call and what you were later able to ascertain about your father's condition?
4:204 minutes, 20 secondsMy brother did uh receive that phone call and it was an anonymous phone call.
4:254 minutes, 25 secondsUm it was terrifying the stories that he talked about as you mentioned and unfortunately we waited for long long
4:324 minutes, 32 secondsdays until the lawyer was you know given the right to go and visit him and when the lawyer visited him the news about
4:404 minutes, 40 secondswhat has been said in that call is not true but at the same time the previous
4:484 minutes, 48 secondsuh assaults of course were true and he said that he has gone through seven different assaults since the 7th of
4:554 minutes, 55 secondsOctober and mostly those assaults they happen and occur when he's getting transferred from prison to prison.
5:035 minutes, 3 secondsThat's uh the responsibility of a unit transferring Palestinian detainees and it's called Nashon unit and they're
5:105 minutes, 10 secondsknown to be uh the most vicious and aggressive against Palestinian detainees and I think that it was a bittersweet
5:195 minutes, 19 secondsfeeling the fact that the horrific things that they mentioned didn't happen to him but at the same time uh the fact
5:265 minutes, 26 secondsthat you know he's still uh suffering from starvation like it's very difficult for him to sleep on his right side
5:345 minutes, 34 secondsbecause of the injury and the broken ribs and so on, but at the same time we,
5:395 minutes, 39 secondsyou know, heard that he's at least healthy to to a certain extent and he's very strong mentally, which is something that he's always been.
5:485 minutes, 48 secondsAnd who do you think was behind that phone call then?
5:515 minutes, 51 secondsI have no idea honestly like it it happens in here. A couple of other uh Palestinian uh dete families also
6:006 minutesreported a similar cause as a kind of intention to break people's spirits or Exactly. It's to intimidate basically to intimidate the family [gasps and snorts]
6:106 minutes, 10 secondsand you know talking about other deterines families I think that the last two years have been an absolute nightmare on everyone who has uh a loved
6:196 minutes, 19 secondsone inside prison and you know it's it's unbelievable numbers when you when you think about it the amount of families that are going through what I'm going through.
6:266 minutes, 26 secondsAnd how does communication with your father work? I mean both for you and your family and for his lawyers and has that changed over time? What you need to
6:356 minutes, 35 secondsknow is that my father when he went to prison in 2002, he was put in solitary confinement for three years in a row and that included the brutal interrogation that he went through the court process,
6:486 minutes, 48 secondsthe trial process and so on. And then when he was out of solitary confinement,
6:526 minutes, 52 secondshe went to Hadar prison and that's where he stayed 16 17 18 years of his uh time.
6:596 minutes, 59 secondsSo I personally used to visit my father before I turned 16 once a month and it was only me and one year older sibling
7:087 minutes, 8 secondsuh because we were less than 16 because you know under Israeli law a Palestinian is an adult at 16 and an Israeli is at
7:177 minutes, 17 seconds18 only. So when I turned 16 I would see him once every two to three years. I haven't seen him in more than 3 years.
7:257 minutes, 25 secondsNone of the family members has been able to see him in 3 years. But the lawyer used to see him every week and then
7:337 minutes, 33 secondsafter October 7th everything changed and I think you know it's it's been really tough on him because the lawyer has only
7:407 minutes, 40 secondsbeen able to see him like for a few times and that's it.
7:447 minutes, 44 secondsAnd as you said I mean conditions for Palestinians in Israeli prisons have always been harsh. Uh but the election
7:517 minutes, 51 secondsof this far-right Israeli government in late 2022 and Itamar Bengir's appointment as national security minister which placed him in charge of
7:597 minutes, 59 secondsprisons escalated the treatment of prisoners to a new level of cruelty and brutality which intensified further
8:068 minutes, 6 secondsafter October 7th. We know of around a 100 Palestinian prisoners who have died in captivity over the past 2 years amid
8:138 minutes, 13 secondscountless testimonies of systematic abuse, be it torture, sexual violence,
8:188 minutes, 18 secondsdeprivation of food, water, and sunlight, as well as a deliberate policy of allowing the spread of skin diseases.
8:258 minutes, 25 secondsAnd there's also a bill going through Israel's Kesset right now that would bring in the death penalty for Palestinians convicted of killing
8:318 minutes, 31 secondsIsraelis out of nationalist motives. In the context of all of this, does your father's high profile make you worry
8:398 minutes, 39 secondsthat he could be a target or do you feel that his visibility on the international stage and the potential for western
8:468 minutes, 46 secondsoutrage should anything happen to him maybe offers some measure of protection?
8:518 minutes, 51 secondsI mean honestly he has been targeted. If you look at the last two years, you will find that you know assaulting him uh several times, breaking his bones,
9:009 minutestorturing him, starving him and putting him in solitary confinement even though he has nothing obviously to do with the October 7 tells you everything that you
9:099 minutes, 9 secondsneed to know. And the fact is since as you mentioned since Beng took charge of the prisons his mission became making
9:189 minutes, 18 secondsthe lives of Palestinian detaininees a living nightmare and it started before then but after October 7th he unleashed
9:269 minutes, 26 secondsthem. He thought that now I have the protection and the cover to do whatever I want and that's exactly what he did.
9:349 minutes, 34 secondsYou've mentioned killing almost uh 100 Palestinian detainees and they get killed by uh beatings, actual beatings.
9:429 minutes, 42 secondsYou know, if you go to uh some stories,
9:459 minutes, 45 secondsyou'll find that people their skulls were broken by the beatings and the batons that they use against them. And these are, you know, detainees inside prison. They don't present any danger.
9:589 minutes, 58 secondsum or starving them or uh medically neglecting their uh uh health issues and
10:0510 minutes, 5 secondsthey die. In the last two plus years, my father did lose weight, did uh get all these assaults and so on. And we need to ask ourselves why. And in my opinion,
10:1610 minutes, 16 secondsthe answer is very clear. It's because of his influence. It's because of his impact. It's because of how he's accepted amongst the Palestinian people.
10:2310 minutes, 23 secondsbecause the uh current Israeli government who doesn't want peace and you know it's I I don't think it's a debate anymore if they want peace or
10:3010 minutes, 30 secondsnot. [sighs] They fear having a unifying Palestinian leader with credibility with legitimacy and getting their credibility
10:3910 minutes, 39 secondsfrom the people and not from anywhere else. And I think that, you know, he's someone who's proven that he can unify
10:4710 minutes, 47 secondsthe Palestinian people and at the same time he supports coexistence and and moderate solutions and so on. So in my
10:5610 minutes, 56 secondsopinion, that's exactly why he represents the biggest threat because he's not a security threat and he's never been he's a politician, but he's a
11:0411 minutes, 4 secondspolitical threat. We'll get more onto the kind of political threat that he represents to Israel. But first, I want to ask you also back in August, Benvir
11:1211 minutes, 12 secondsposted a short clip on social media in which he's seen speaking to Marwan inside prison and threatening him in Hebrew, which is a language your father
11:2111 minutes, 21 secondslearned while inside prison. And in the video, he says, among other things, you will not win. This was the first time the public had seen your father in
11:2911 minutes, 29 secondsalmost two decades. How did you and your family learn about this incident and what was it like to see that video?
11:3511 minutes, 35 secondsI mean, I I remember that I was sent this video by a friend and u he sent me that video and honestly the first few
11:4411 minutes, 44 secondsseconds I was confused why I was sent that video because I didn't know that was my father. I couldn't recognize him from the video at the beginning and it
11:5311 minutes, 53 secondstook me like a few seconds to understand what was going on. It was a shocking moment for sure uh for me and for the
12:0112 minutes, 1 secondfamily. It was very frustrating the fact that Beng is the one who does it. He's a you know, you can tell he's a textbook
12:0912 minutes, 9 secondsbully with what he did. Taunting a man who's in a cell tells us everything we need to know about this man's character.
12:1612 minutes, 16 secondsOf course, I was angry, frustrated,
12:2012 minutes, 20 secondsdisappointed by everything, including the international community who is seeing a Palestinian legitimate leader
12:2712 minutes, 27 secondsgetting taunted and threatened by a convicted terrorist by Israeli standards. Like, you can understand how that's hard. And he's sanctioned by many countries and so on. And yet, you know,
12:3912 minutes, 39 secondsthere's no protection. And the message that is reaching us is that you know Palestinians just don't matter because
12:4812 minutes, 48 secondshere he is threatening and taunting the most popular Palestinian leader. The leader that Palestinians look up to and
12:5512 minutes, 55 secondsit's a calculated move. He wanted to provoke the Palestinian people and to show us that if I can humiliate your leader I can humiliate you all.
13:0313 minutes, 3 secondsBut then I reminded myself with my father's discussion always between me and him and he always reminds me that
13:1113 minutes, 11 secondsthis is a relationship between the occupied and the occupier and at the end when you look at it and zoom out I think
13:1813 minutes, 18 secondsthat it's a great perfect actually representation of the struggle because here you have Bengir who represents
13:2713 minutes, 27 secondsperfectly the current Israeli government and the great face for it and uh here you have my father who when his people are being starved, assaulted and so on,
13:3713 minutes, 37 secondshe's being starved and assaulted and he's a perfect representation of the Palestinian struggle and embodies that struggle.
13:4413 minutes, 44 secondsHow have your father and other prisoners responded to the escalating brutality of their treatment by Israeli prison guards
13:5213 minutes, 52 secondsand where does this leave the prisoners struggle in general? with my father. Of course, he responded with the by the best way he he knows which is
14:0114 minutes, 1 secondresilience. He's been in prison for more than 30 years of his life, 7 years of exile. He has encountered many bankers
14:1014 minutes, 10 secondsin his life. And he knew exactly what he was signing up for. Um if you go back to
14:1614 minutes, 16 secondsthe early80s when my father proposed to my mother uh he told her that uh I'm not going to be an engineer or a doctor. I'm
14:2514 minutes, 25 secondsgoing to be a politician. And the politician in Palestine pays a very steep price if you want to do the right thing. You know that that's why the
14:3414 minutes, 34 secondsresponse by him I'm sure is going to be resilience faith. You know he's a very calm person. He understands this uh very
14:4314 minutes, 43 secondswell. But honestly, the the rest of the Palestinian detainees issue as a whole
14:5114 minutes, 51 secondshas been left alone, has been left helpless because if you're Palestinian,
14:5514 minutes, 55 secondsif you want to advocate or to stand by your people, you don't know where to start. Do you start with the genocide in
15:0415 minutes, 4 secondsGaza? Do you start with the settler terrorism in the West Bank? Do you start with the Palestinian detainees? Do you start with the Palestinians inside
15:1215 minutes, 12 secondsIsrael who are getting discriminated against every single day, Palestinian diaspora who are not able to come back
15:1915 minutes, 19 secondsto Palestine. Uh the Palestinians in Jerusalem and and so on. So this is why unfortunately they were left helpless,
15:2815 minutes, 28 secondsthey were killed, they were assaulted, they were abused, they were tortured,
15:3215 minutes, 32 secondsthey were raped, they were all of that in front of the whole world. And you mentioned your mother Fada who has long
15:4015 minutes, 40 secondscampaigned for your father's release and for the rights of all Palestinian prisoners and in the past few months your family has stepped up this
15:4715 minutes, 47 secondsinternational campaign. Can you describe how the campaign has evolved over the years and what it looks like today? So the campaign was founded in 2002 right
Chapter 3: Free Marwan
15:5515 minutes, 55 secondsafter when my father went to prison and my mother is the one who founded that campaign and it focused locally and on
16:0216 minutes, 2 secondsgrassroots at the beginning I would say the first decade between 2002 until 2013
16:0916 minutes, 9 secondswhere she went to Robin Island Nelson Mandelas and she launched the international campaign for his release
16:1616 minutes, 16 secondsalongside leaders like Desmond Tutu Ahmed Katrada and many others supported by Jimmy Carter, Angela Davies and many
16:2416 minutes, 24 secondsother Nobel Peace Prize uh uh winners and I think after that it gained the
16:3216 minutes, 32 secondsinternational prominence and people started understanding who Marwan Brahuti is and what he represents to the Palestinian cause because you need to
16:3916 minutes, 39 secondsremember that he's been the most popular Palestinian leader for more than 20 years. So in Palestine he's already been known since the days of the second inif
16:4816 minutes, 48 secondswhere he became the face of that uprising. uh but internationally it wasn't the case until of course his trial which Israel gave it so much
16:5716 minutes, 57 secondsimportance uh media importance but I think they were not happy with the results because that cemented him as
17:0417 minutes, 4 secondssomeone who's a Palestinian Mandela as people call him but in general I think that the campaign after the 2013 had the
17:1317 minutes, 13 secondshunger strike in 2017 and after the 2017 hunger strike that was I would say it was a really good uh great uh
17:2317 minutes, 23 secondsachievement by the Palestinian detinees when they went 1,500 of them 42 days and achieved a lot but then we got
17:3217 minutes, 32 secondsrestricted as a campaign a lot after October 7th we didn't want to go for that because we were hoping that he
17:4017 minutes, 40 secondswould be released in the exchanges that uh happened and after he didn't we thought that of course we want to go for
17:4817 minutes, 48 secondsa global campaign and it wasn't relaunched by us. It was relaunched by international activists especially from
17:5617 minutes, 56 secondsLondon but also in Italy, France, South Africa and many other places who are still doing that. And in the next few
18:0418 minutes, 4 secondsweeks, we have a lot also uh under the campaign because we want to raise the awareness about who Marwan Barhuti is. And the campaign's name is Free Marwan,
18:1318 minutes, 13 secondsfree Palestine because we want everyone to understand that we're talking about a leader who embodies the whole of the Palestinian struggle and this release
18:2018 minutes, 20 secondswill contribute to the freedom of the Palestinian people, but also of peace and stability in the region.
18:2618 minutes, 26 secondsAnd who are you targeting with this campaign? I mean, is it aimed at the global public? Is it aimed at US policy makers, the Gulf States? Which avenue do
18:3518 minutes, 35 secondsyou think has the most potential for getting results?
18:3818 minutes, 38 secondsI think it's a bit of both because you can't go publicly without worrying and caring about the political stuff. And
18:4518 minutes, 45 secondswhat I mean by political, I mean, you know, building bridges with different governments, uh, Arab governments,
18:5218 minutes, 52 secondsWestern governments, the American administration, of course, is very important and making sure that they understand that there is a way out of
18:5918 minutes, 59 secondsthis and we they shouldn't keep spoiling the Israeli government and giving it exactly what they want under the excuse
19:0719 minutes, 7 secondsthat the Palestinian people, we don't have a partner for peace and within the Palestinian people because it's a lie and it's a lie that's been used for so
19:1419 minutes, 14 secondsmany is to just sabotage any chance for a peaceful solution that will secure of course the end of the occupation and the
19:2219 minutes, 22 secondsfreedom of the Palestinian people. And I think postponing that is postponing the perpetual violence that will never end
19:3019 minutes, 30 secondsunless the Palestinian people have our own freedom and independence.
19:3519 minutes, 35 secondsAnd I I think that we want to show that path through uh politically. Now the public stuff is different. We want to make sure that people just raise the
19:4319 minutes, 43 secondsawareness and make sure that people understand is important for the Palestinian people and the Palestinian cause and to give them a platform to keep and to continue the support for the
19:5219 minutes, 52 secondsPalestinian cause because I I think the end of the brutal bombardment of the Israeli uh government in Gaza is not the
20:0120 minutes, 1 secondend of the Palestinian suffering. We're all still suffering in different ways and he represents a pathway that can get
20:0720 minutes, 7 secondsus out of all of this. The Hamas attack of October 7th and the Israeli military onslaught on Gaza has really brought the
20:1620 minutes, 16 secondsPalestinian prisoner issue back onto the global agenda, I think, and particularly in the context of negotiations between Israel and Hamas over the release of
20:2420 minutes, 24 secondsprisoners in exchange for Israeli hostages. For some of this time,
20:2920 minutes, 29 secondsMarwan's name appeared to be on the table with Hamas campaigning for his release and even President Trump suggesting that his name was under
20:3620 minutes, 36 secondsconsideration. But ultimately Israel refused and he was not included in the final deal. Can you describe what that
20:4420 minutes, 44 secondsperiod was like for your family? I mean the hope, the uncertainty and then ultimately seeing him excluded from the
Chapter 4: Hopes for Marwan Barghouti’s release
20:5020 minutes, 50 secondslist. I mean it's it's a I I don't know how how I can express the period that we
20:5720 minutes, 57 secondsgone through. Um because you know it's years of just waking up every day
21:0521 minutes, 5 secondsexpecting that you might get a phone call that my father got hurt. You get into a stage where you don't understand
21:1421 minutes, 14 secondswhere you're living what why you're living. It's a very very very tough thing to go through to be honest with
21:2121 minutes, 21 secondsyou because you know normalizing the assaulting my father and and beating him is something
21:3021 minutes, 30 secondsthat I don't know how you can deal with for any human being not only for myself
21:3721 minutes, 37 secondsand you know seeing my mother who is as I said you know she's the reason why he is recognized nationally and
21:4521 minutes, 45 secondsinternationally a successful lawyer, a very respected person within the woman rights movement in Palestine and for heading his campaign and so on. Um,
21:5621 minutes, 56 secondsshe's also a human and we're human beings as Palestinians. And I think that, you know, going around and traveling everywhere. One of the things
22:0422 minutes, 4 secondsthat I really thought was unfair to the Palestinian people is that narrative that, you know, being impressed with the
22:1322 minutes, 13 secondsPalestinian resilience and so on. And that's not something that we want to be about all of our lives, about suffering,
22:2122 minutes, 21 secondsabout resilience, about taking on the pain and and so on. We're humans like everyone else, and we want to have a
22:2922 minutes, 29 secondsfuture. We want to have dreams and uh fulfill those dreams. [snorts] We want to have a sustainable economy. We want to have a safe place for our children to
22:3922 minutes, 39 secondsbe raised and uh to live in safety and security. But then you wake up to the facts around you and the facts are facts. A genocide is happening in Gaza.
22:5122 minutes, 51 secondsSettler terrorism is all over the West Bank and the detaininees and having my father go through what he went through.
22:5822 minutes, 58 secondsAnd you know, I always say I really wish I was unique in this experience. The problem is that this is an average Palestinian experience, especially in
23:0723 minutes, 7 secondsthe last few years because look at what's happening in Gaza. Can I go to the people of Gaza and start complaining
23:1423 minutes, 14 secondsabout what's happening with my father or to the people who lost all their farms and lands in in the West Bank by settler terrorism or to the So it's it's just,
23:2523 minutes, 25 secondsyou know, tough.
23:2723 minutes, 27 secondsBut then what's the choice? The choice is you either put all of these facts in
23:3423 minutes, 34 secondsfront of you as a reason and the justification to give up or you decide that giving up is not an option. And
23:4123 minutes, 41 secondsthat's exactly what my father has taught me. You need to delete hopelessness from your dictionary. So I would never complain about what's happening because
23:4923 minutes, 49 secondswe're suffering for a noble cause and it's worth it. Was your family in contact with Hamas during these
23:5623 minutes, 56 secondsnegotiations? And I mean, what can you tell us about what that relationship looks like?
24:0024 minutesWhen we say Hamas, you need to understand that there is the political side of Hamas, there is in Qatar, in Turkey and so on who are in contact with
24:0824 minutes, 8 secondsthe Egyptian government, with the Turkish government, with the Qatari government, Jordanians, everyone in the region. and we have our contact with
24:1724 minutes, 17 secondsthem like what's happening to try and get information like all the other detaininees families and making sure you
24:2424 minutes, 24 secondsknow is it happening is he going to be on the list and so yeah in that level of course we were and then the deal
24:3224 minutes, 32 secondshappened and he was not a part of it and it was a big blow not only for us as a family but I think personally to the
24:4024 minutes, 40 secondswhole of the Palestinian cause that the Israeli government got away with not releasing him because you need to remember that 800 Palestinians with life
24:4924 minutes, 49 secondssentences have been released in the last 14 years since the Shalid deal and they
24:5624 minutes, 56 secondskeep excluding his name time after time after time and you got to ask yourself like why because if it's he did this he
25:0525 minutes, 5 secondsdid that the other 800 according to the Israeli courts which I don't trust of course or judicial system they said that these 800 have a way more complicated
25:1425 minutes, 14 secondscases than my father. So why do you release them and not release him? And that's where you will understand that his position [clears throat]
25:2325 minutes, 23 secondswithin the Palestinian people, the fact that he's a unifying figure, the fact that he supports a political solution and coexistence because they prefer
25:3125 minutes, 31 secondsextremists. Extremists are easy to cancel. Of course, we don't have a partner for peace. Or they prefer someone who's weak and get their uh
25:4025 minutes, 40 secondsstrength from them, from the Israeli government.
25:4325 minutes, 43 secondsSo that's why it people need to understand this point and once they understand this point they will understand that his release is one of
25:5225 minutes, 52 secondsthe most important issues in Palestine at the moment.
25:5425 minutes, 54 secondsAnd what about the Palestinian Authority? There have been reports that Mahmud Abbas has tried to prevent your father's release at various points
26:0326 minutes, 3 secondsbecause it would likely pose a threat to his leadership.
26:0626 minutes, 6 secondsPersonally, I don't think that the Palestinian Authority had any say in the negotiations in the first place. So, I think these are just rumors to break uh
26:1626 minutes, 16 secondsthe Palestinian people internally. I'm I'm not going to say that I give the benefit of the doubt for the Palestinian Authority because as a Palestinian who
26:2426 minutes, 24 secondsis, you know, I've never voted before in my life. That's a crime. You know, if you're 35 or under and in Palestine,
26:3226 minutes, 32 secondsyou've never voted before. So, you're talking about 60 70% of the Palestinian people have never said that, you know,
26:3826 minutes, 38 secondsthis is the leadership that we want. So,
26:4126 minutes, 41 secondsI I wouldn't follow those rumors that they uh, you know, said don't release him and and so on, but that doesn't mean
26:5026 minutes, 50 secondsthat they're doing their job in general because, as I said, I represent a generation that is very critical of the Palestinian Authority. And I think
26:5926 minutes, 59 secondspersonally that the Palestinian Authority should not be targeted as you know to collapse the Palestinian Authority because you need an agency to
27:0727 minutes, 7 secondsrepresent the Palestinian people and that's the generational problem that you have in Palestine. You have a whole generation that despises the current
27:1527 minutes, 15 secondsPalestinian authority. So what's what's the solution? The solution is having general election because that's where you will have a functional political
27:2327 minutes, 23 secondssystem. We haven't had a parliament in 18 years and when you don't have a parliament it means that you know you
27:3027 minutes, 30 secondsit's your legislative council. So you have a dysfunctional political system and in order to solve all of that elections would be very important not
27:3927 minutes, 39 secondsonly to bring a new leader but also to bring democracy the whole democratic process to to have youth participation in power women participation in power and and so on.
Chapter 5: The trial he refused to recognize
27:5027 minutes, 50 secondsI want to go back a little further now.
27:5227 minutes, 52 secondsSo when your father was first arrested in 2002, he denied having directed the attacks for which he was charged, but he
27:5927 minutes, 59 secondsdeclined to offer a defense at his trial because he didn't recognize the Israeli court's jurisdiction or legitimacy. And
28:0628 minutes, 6 secondshe also described it as a a political show trial. Can you explain why?
28:1028 minutes, 10 secondsIt's because exactly what he said. It was a political show riot. And I think that these are not my words. If you go to the independent legal bodies that
28:2028 minutes, 20 secondswent and you know lawyers did go and attend his trial and they said that it would be impossible to say that Marwan
28:2828 minutes, 28 secondsBarhudi has been given a fair trial because first of all there are many violations of the international law when
28:3628 minutes, 36 secondsthey kidnapped him from Ramallah. First of all, they took him uh from Palestinian territory and put him in
28:4328 minutes, 43 secondsIsraeli territory, which is against the international law. The second thing is that they did not respect uh the
28:5128 minutes, 51 secondsinternational law that says that my father is a parliament member with immunity so he shouldn't be arrested and also if they want to arrest him, they
28:5928 minutes, 59 secondsshould talk to the Palestinian Authority and they should do it on behalf. That's the law. The other thing is that when you look at his uh case and trial, first of all, the witnesses that they wrote,
29:1129 minutes, 11 seconds80% of them were disqualified because they had nothing to say about him. The 20% that left, only 12 of them were uh
29:2029 minutes, 20 secondstalking about relevant issues. And the 12 that we're talking about uh did not
29:2729 minutes, 27 secondsactually uh say that he uh was involved in any planning. They said that yes we were seeing him seeing his interviews
29:3629 minutes, 36 secondsseeing his speeches in the streets we would get motivated we would do this we would do that you know there are many examples he was saying to the judge that
29:4429 minutes, 44 secondsI'm a freedom fighter the judge replied a freedom fighter doesn't blow up children so imagine you're a judge in
29:5129 minutes, 51 secondsthe second day of the trial and you call someone as they they literally bump children so what justice are you going
30:0030 minutesto get from that trial The other thing is that you need to remember that seven different ministries with their
30:0630 minutes, 6 secondsministers would attend that trial. So do you think after all that importance and the media and Cheron and Mufas and all
30:1630 minutes, 16 secondsthese personalities the prime minister and the defense minister and so on being involved do you think that really justice would be served? Of course it
30:2430 minutes, 24 secondswas a political trial and the reason for that political trial and the purpose of it was two things. The first one is to label the Palestinian leadership as
30:3330 minutes, 33 secondsterrorists forever. And the second thing is to make sure that they put the whole of the Palestinian struggle on trial.
30:4230 minutes, 42 secondsThat for them was the point where okay,
30:4430 minutes, 44 secondswe proved that Maruti is a terrorist which means that the Palestinian resistance, the Palestinian struggle overall is based on terrorism. And
30:5330 minutes, 53 secondsthat's why we would never approve or even, you know, recognize that trial.
31:0031 minutesAnd you need to remember that the Israeli judicial system is full of flaws. More than 800,000 Palestinians have been in prison for the last 58 years with 99.7%
31:1131 minutes, 11 secondsconviction rate and with having the Palestinians, you know, under administrative detention, which is illegal by international law. Onethird
31:2031 minutes, 20 secondsof that number are under administrative detention.
31:2331 minutes, 23 secondsSo I don't think that any sane person would would really trust the Israeli judicial system against the Palestinians.
Chapter 6: Armed resistance
31:3031 minutes, 30 secondsAnd still, as you kind of alluded to there, I think in the years leading up to your father's uh arrest, there was
31:3831 minutes, 38 secondsevidently a shift in his strategy from advocating nonviolence to defending the legitimacy of armed resistance. In a
31:4631 minutes, 46 seconds2002 op-ed in the Washington Post, for example, he wrote, "While I strongly oppose attacks and the targeting of civilians inside Israel, our future
31:5431 minutes, 54 secondsneighbor, I reserve the right to protect myself, to resist the Israeli occupation of my country, and to fight for my freedom." How do you understand the
32:0232 minutes, 2 secondsshift that he underwent? And do you think it's one he still stands by?
32:0532 minutes, 5 secondsI wouldn't call it a shift personally. I would call it the fact that he was brave in the peace process and he was brave in the struggle for the Palestinian rights.
32:1532 minutes, 15 secondsAnd that's the kind of leader that he is. It's not like he's, you know, shying away from anything. Until today, he would tell you that he was supportive of the Palestinian uprising in the second.
32:2732 minutes, 27 secondsAnd he did call for the Palestinians rights of resistance, but resistance against the uh Israeli occupation. and he made it very clear and he was always
32:3532 minutes, 35 secondsopposing the uh targeting of civilians on on the on the record and of the record. If you look back you will find
32:4232 minutes, 42 secondsthat he always bases all of his political work on international law and international law does give the right of
32:5032 minutes, 50 secondsthe Palestinian people of resisting the occupier in the occupied territories and that's exactly what he's been advocating
32:5732 minutes, 57 secondsfor. Now, he's always said that anyone who can get their rights through political solutions and chooses anything else would be a fool because [snorts]
33:0833 minutes, 8 secondsfor him, if we can get our uh rights by political solutions, this is the most favorable method. But at the same time,
33:1633 minutes, 16 secondsthat doesn't mean that we're going to give up on our right of resistance while when we're occupied and living under apartheid and so on.
33:2433 minutes, 24 secondsAnd I I think that he he understands that every period needs its uh its
33:3133 minutes, 31 secondstools. And uh that's why I really think that he's he's someone who can bring the Pinion together into what tools, what
33:4133 minutes, 41 secondsmethods, what direction, what vision are we going for? And on that note, in 2006,
33:4733 minutes, 47 secondsfour years into your father's current prison term, he co-authored a historic text known as the prisoners document,
33:5433 minutes, 54 secondswhich was signed by imprisoned leaders of all five major Palestinian factions.
33:5833 minutes, 58 secondsThat's Fata Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihads, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of
34:0634 minutes, 6 secondsPalestine. It was seen as an attempt to bridge deep divisions in Palestinian politics and it expressed a unified call
34:1434 minutes, 14 secondsfor an independent Palestinian state on the 1967 borders and the rights of return for Palestinian refugees as well as for reform of the Palestine
34:2334 minutes, 23 secondsLiberation Organization as a vehicle for bringing that vision to fruition. Tell us about your father's involvement in that process and what he hoped the
34:3234 minutes, 32 secondsdocument would achieve. I I think it was one of the most important achievements of his political career which is gathering the Palestinian factions on
34:4134 minutes, 41 secondssigning a document and it was and until today the only document that was signed
34:4834 minutes, 48 secondsby all Palestinian factions altogether and it was historical because you know you you would never dream of having
34:5634 minutes, 56 secondsFatah Habas and all of the Palestinian factions sign on a document that had a clear political vision. based on the 67
35:0435 minutes, 4 secondsborders uh line and building and establishing the Palestinian state on the 67 borders. And I think it was a
35:1335 minutes, 13 secondsvery important uh step to show the international community that we're not only waiting for initiatives. We're willing to take initiatives to help the
35:2235 minutes, 22 secondsinternational community help us. You know, it's it's a great achievement because we don't need to reinvent the wheel once we start working on the
35:3035 minutes, 30 secondsPalestinian unity because you already have the basis for that and we can build on that uh at any time that uh you know
35:3835 minutes, 38 secondsanytime soon and I think that it's very unfortunate the fact that the international community decided to
35:4535 minutes, 45 secondsisolate the PA back then because Hamas won the elections and basically collapsed and that was the start of the
35:5435 minutes, 54 secondsPalestinian division that started in 2007 and the collapse of the Palestinian Legislative Council and the rest is history and dark history. In my opinion,
36:0436 minutes, 4 secondsit was because of the decision of the western governments that we will isolate the Palestinian Authority until it
36:1036 minutes, 10 secondscollapses and they could have easily started uh working with the Palestinian Authority back then and Hamas would have
36:1836 minutes, 18 secondsbeen a political party and uh you know we would have the Palestinian uh unity.
36:2536 minutes, 25 secondsFor many years now, public opinion polls have shown that Marwan is the most popular leader in Palestine, surpassing
Chapter 7: Public support and political direction
36:3336 minutes, 33 secondsany potential candidate from Fatah or Hamas, including since the so-called ceasefire in Gaza. There's some irony, I
36:4236 minutes, 42 secondsthink, in the longevity of his popularity, despite the fact that he hasn't been able to speak or write publicly for years, and no one knows the
36:5036 minutes, 50 secondsextent to which his views have changed while inside prison. What can you tell us about his politics today? For example, as far as you know, is he still
36:5836 minutes, 58 secondscommitted to some form of two-state solution, which for many Palestinians feels like a a kind of relic of a bygone era? I don't think he's attached to the two-state solution as a solution itself.
37:0937 minutes, 9 secondsHe's attached to Palestinian freedom.
37:1337 minutes, 13 secondsAnd I think that he's flexible on the solutions, but he's not flexible on the objective. And the objective is very clear. as I said pristine freedom,
37:2337 minutes, 23 secondssovereignty, uh living in dignity and then we can discuss how we can make that happen. He's someone who is very well
37:3037 minutes, 30 secondseducated, you know, he he holds a PhD in political science. He wrote books. He reads between 8 to 10 books a month.
37:3837 minutes, 38 secondsHe's fluent in Hebrew, Arabic, and English and some French. And he truly understands how things work and uh
37:4637 minutes, 46 secondsunderstands the Israeli politics more than anyone that I know. And I think that uh he will be able to bring the
37:5537 minutes, 55 secondsPalestinians together because he always said that we need to worry about what we can control and we can control being
38:0338 minutes, 3 secondsunified. We can control building our institutions. We can control not having corruption within our institutions. We
38:1138 minutes, 11 secondscan control having a democratic process respected by everyone. respecting uh uh opinions uh and freedom of speech,
38:2138 minutes, 21 secondswomen's rights. He's always been a huge supporter of uh of women's rights and equality in Palestine and so on. So, you
38:3038 minutes, 30 secondsknow, to answer your question, of course, he's a politician and wants to get a political solution, but I uh I I
38:3938 minutes, 39 secondswill wait for him to speak about his politics, his political views at the moment. And you mentioned there are a lot of things I think from your father's
38:4738 minutes, 47 secondshistory and from his generation that it seems important to you to kind of carry forward into today. Are there things you see differently today from your father's generation?
38:5738 minutes, 57 secondsYeah, of course. I think it's very different. Our struggle is very different. They I mean if you go back to the 80s you will find that there were
39:0439 minutes, 4 secondsway more initiatives, political initiatives and uh uh youth initiatives as well that were more present. uh
39:1339 minutes, 13 secondsuniversities like Biz University for example. It graduated all the political leaders that led Palestine after war and he was one of them. He was the head of
39:2139 minutes, 21 secondsstudent council of Biz in three times in a row. But also uh it was different
39:2839 minutes, 28 secondsbecause you know we're now we're uh uh occupied uh in in a different way. We're
39:3639 minutes, 36 secondswe're getting bombarded. we're uh getting killed at a rate that uh is unbelievable and I think the tools that
39:4439 minutes, 44 secondswe need to use are different from the tools that they used and we need to work on the awareness around the world. It's really making a difference. Uh we want
39:5239 minutes, 52 secondsto make sure that we have a sustainable economy. We want to make sure that we build and aspire to build a successful state and and so on. So I think that we have differences.
40:0340 minutes, 3 secondsuh our generation doesn't like the word two-state solution because it's as you mentioned it's been used to hypnotize us
40:1040 minutes, 10 secondsto into believing that there will be a solution without having anything but I think the struggle continues in
40:1840 minutes, 18 secondsdifferent ways I I think that what my father's biggest pain is the fact that myself and my generation are still going
40:2640 minutes, 26 secondsthrough this and I remember that he sent uh a letter once to Ahmed Bonasra uh the preceding kid who got tortured inside
40:3540 minutes, 35 secondsIsraeli prisons. And he he basically apologized for him and he told him that
40:4140 minutes, 41 secondsI've always struggled and sacrificed so you and your generation don't have to go through what you're going through at the
40:4940 minutes, 49 secondsmoment and I apologize for that. In 2021, when the first Palestinian
40:5540 minutes, 55 secondspresidential election since 2005 was supposed to take place, your father threw his hat into the ring and was
41:0341 minutes, 3 secondsleading in the polls before Palestinian Authority President Mahmud Abbas ultimately called off and indefinitely
41:1041 minutes, 10 secondspostponed that election, citing Israel's refusal to allow voting among Palestinians in East Jerusalem. How did
41:1741 minutes, 17 secondsyour father react to that? And what do you think this episode said about the state of the Palestinian political system?
41:2441 minutes, 24 secondsTo be honest with you, it's a very uh sad story. I think that the 21 elections would have changed everything that we're living in uh today.
41:3441 minutes, 34 secondsWe had so much hope. We started working on campaigns. We were very hopeful, the younger generation
41:4141 minutes, 41 secondsuh as a whole. And it wasn't a secret that my father was going to run for uh the presidential elections. And as you mentioned, he had great chances to win.
41:5341 minutes, 53 secondsAnd I think it would have put the Palestinian cause in its right place because we're occupied. And once you
42:0242 minutes, 2 secondshave the president inside prison, you would understand the whole cause. You will understand what's happening. It
42:0942 minutes, 9 secondswill uh bring that to light. But it's not about him. That's the problem. That it wasn't about him the problem with
42:1742 minutes, 17 secondswhat happened. It was about the democratic process and uh respecting democracy and having a new uh Palestinian political system and so on.
42:2842 minutes, 28 secondsAnd it's very very sad that it didn't happen to be honest with you because we would have been in a way better place politically. And that political system
Chapter 8: The state of Palestinian politics today
42:3642 minutes, 36 secondsas you've kind of characterized it there obviously it's crippled by Israel's occupation. It's divide and rule
42:4342 minutes, 43 secondspolitics and it's also beset by corruption and division internally and this is obviously not a system that's
42:5142 minutes, 51 secondsserving Palestinians today. What would meaningful reform of the institutions and culture of Palestinian politics look
42:5942 minutes, 59 secondslike and what's required in order for that to happen? I think the most important thing is to take charge and uh
43:0643 minutes, 6 secondsto take for responsibility of our faith and we can do that by electing a new leadership because I get back to that to
43:1343 minutes, 13 secondsthe same idea of of elections not because it's the only answer but it's the most important answer and in the
43:2043 minutes, 20 secondslast few months I'm sure you've noticed all the solutions that get thrown at us are coming from the west are coming from the international community are coming
43:2943 minutes, 29 secondsfrom Israel itself but I think that we're more than capable of initiating initiatives that can really change the
43:3743 minutes, 37 secondsstatus quo and can unify the Palestinian people into something that we all accept because we need to take into account that the Palestinian people have gone
43:4543 minutes, 45 secondsthrough a lot in the last few years and you know you need to deal with the PTSD of of what has been happening if you can
43:5443 minutes, 54 secondsof course like I always say we just need the space to have our PTSD in peace. So
44:0044 minutesI think that the idea after having the elections is that that's where you will
44:0644 minutes, 6 secondsstart working in a whole different way internationally, diplomatically,
44:1144 minutes, 11 secondsculturally, making sure that Palestinian culture is everywhere. People are in love with Palestinian culture, the branding, if you want to call it, of of Palestine.
44:2144 minutes, 21 secondsMaking sure that we tell the people what free Palestine means. Because one of the things that I noticed is that many
44:2944 minutes, 29 secondsactivists, propestian activists do is that they want to impose certain solutions. They might be radical. They might be the opposite of radical on us.
44:4144 minutes, 41 secondsAnd I really appreciate their support and I really think that their support is is essential for us to have our freedom
44:4944 minutes, 49 secondsand future uh dreams. But at the same time, no one has the right to come and tell us how we want to live and you know
44:5944 minutes, 59 secondswhat we want for our our future and so on. So I would you know really like it if if people respect that and respect
45:0745 minutes, 7 secondsthat because you know one one of the things that are happening for example people from Gaza they they
45:1445 minutes, 14 secondscome out and they say that I'm tired of this I can't do this anymore. just do anything to stop this suffering and so on and people will start attacking them.
45:2445 minutes, 24 secondsYou're not resilient enough. You're not like this, you're not like that. I mean,
45:2845 minutes, 28 secondsyou need to stop. You know, we we need to worry about what what really makes a difference. And what really makes a difference is Palestinian unity, having
45:3645 minutes, 36 secondsa democratic process. And from there, I promise you that you will have a whole new generation with new blood, new ideas
45:4445 minutes, 44 secondsthat will come and rebrand the whole of the Palestinian cause and Palestinian politics. exactly where it needs to be.
Chapter 9: Beyond the “Palestinian Mandela” analogy
45:5045 minutes, 50 secondsIn the international media, your father is often described as a Palestinian Mandela. While this symbolism is
45:5745 minutes, 57 secondsobviously powerful, I think it's fair to say that the analogy ignores a lot of differences between the South African context and the Israel Palestine
46:0546 minutes, 5 secondscontext. Not least the fact that there is not a unified Palestinian liberation movement behind Marwan and the fact that
46:1346 minutes, 13 secondsIsraeli politics appears a long way off from being able to produce a decler type figure. But I suppose the reason we
46:2046 minutes, 20 secondsstill hear it so much reflects the reality that the Palestinian national movement finds itself in a kind of strategic bind without any clear
46:2846 minutes, 28 secondsdirection almost waiting for some kind of savior figure with the stature and popular legitimacy to reunify the
46:3546 minutes, 35 secondsmovement drive it forwards and finally end Israel's occupation and apartheid.
46:4146 minutes, 41 secondsWith all that being said, what is it about your father as a potential leader,
46:4546 minutes, 45 secondsdo you think, that Palestinians are so drawn to even after all these years? And what do you think he would say to those
46:5346 minutes, 53 secondswho argue that ultimately he's still part of the old guard of Fatak, which is bound to Oslo, and therefore he's unable to lead on an agenda of true liberation for Palestinians.
47:0447 minutes, 4 secondsYou said it like uh he he was uh imprisoned 23 years ago. So if you're 30 or under, you don't know my father at
47:1247 minutes, 12 secondsall. And yet they keep voting for him or or favoring him in polls. And I think
47:1947 minutes, 19 secondsthis tells you a lot because he never uh uh promised the Palestinian people with building roads or infrastructure or anything like that. He promised one
47:2747 minutes, 27 secondsthing. If the price of my people's freedom is my own freedom, I'm willing to pay that price. And this is something that we truly appreciate. And he did and
47:3547 minutes, 35 secondsis paying that price until today. But it's not only the sacrifice, okay? Because you know the Palestinian people,
47:4347 minutes, 43 secondswe all sacrifice in our own way, but it's the uh uh political thinking, it's the political agenda, it's the vision.
47:5147 minutes, 51 secondsHe's one of the people who are visionaries,
47:5447 minutes, 54 secondsyou know, and understands how to build a state, how to uh uh use politics, how to
48:0148 minutes, 1 seconduse all of that. And I think this is very important for any person because it's a really really tough job to unify the Palestinian people to work on a
48:0948 minutes, 9 secondsvision with all the restrictions and challenges that we go through from the international community and especially from Israel. But I think he's capable of doing that. But at the end of the day,
48:1948 minutes, 19 secondsthis I want to make sure that people understand that I'm not advocating for my father to be a leader uh of of
48:2748 minutes, 27 secondsPalestine because that's for the Palestinian people to decide and that's for him to decide if he wants to go to
48:3348 minutes, 33 secondselections or not. Um, what I want is first of all get my father back into my
48:4048 minutes, 40 secondslife. Having him uh uh meet his six grandchildren that he's never met before. Fulfill the promise that he gave
48:4848 minutes, 48 secondsmy mother 42 years ago when he told her that, you know, I promise you that when Palestine is free, we will live a normal
48:5748 minutes, 57 secondslife and to be back in my life. My second thing that I want as any other person in the world, I want my people to
49:0649 minutes, 6 secondsflourish. I want my people to live in peace, to live in safety, in security and most importantly freedom and
49:1449 minutes, 14 secondsdignity. And this is why I advocate for my father's campaign because I do think that it can contribute into that which is his release.
49:2349 minutes, 23 secondsI think that's an excellent place to finish. Arab, thanks so much for joining us today. Thank you so much.
49:2949 minutes, 29 seconds[music]
49:3249 minutes, 32 secondsThis episode was produced by Jennifer Cutler with help from the 972 editorial team. Make sure to subscribe wherever
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50:3650 minutes, 36 seconds[music]
