Scientist Confirms Iran Is Unbeatable | Dr. Patrick Ringgenberg
Neutrality Studies
Apr 4, 2026 Interviews
Western views of Iran are deeply distorted. Patrick Ringgenberg, EPFL lecturer and longtime Iran researcher, discusses media bias, Iran’s social and religious complexity, failed regime change thinking, war misreading, internal power factions, and the gap between diaspora narratives and life inside Iran.
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Timestamps:
00:00:00 Introduction and war assessment
00:03:55 Real life inside Iran
00:09:40 Wine tradition and private life
00:13:13 Military misread and war delusion
00:21:32 Media bias and missing experts
00:28:30 The mullah regime label
00:35:09 Minorities and national identity
00:40:03 Power factions and state structure
00:53:56 Closing critique of Iran coverage
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Transcript
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Chapter 1: Introduction and war assessment
0:00Welcome back everybody to Neutrality Studies. Today for the first time with Dr. Patrick Ringenburg, a lecturer at the EPFL in Loausan, the Swiss
0:099 secondsequivalent to the MIT where he teaches and researches Iran. Patrick, welcome. Thank you. Hello.
0:1616 secondsThank you very much for doing this. Uh I wanted to talk to you because you um uh wrote and expressed that you are quite
0:2323 secondsunhappy with the way that Iran is being portrayed also in in Europe in in uh in the media and you've been researching
0:3030 secondsIran for a long long time and now we are in the second month of the USIsraeli war against Iran and I just wanted to pick
0:3838 secondsyour brain of how you see what is currently happening um looking at this from distant Switzerland.
0:4545 secondsUh well actually there's much to say. Um I think that first uh well uh it was a
0:5454 secondsbig mistake to to start this war because uh on a personal level I never thought that uh Iran would be attacked because
1:021 minute, 2 secondswhen you are aware of what Iran is uh its history, its culture, its military
1:081 minute, 8 secondsexpertise and strength uh you you realize that no you can you cannot win a
1:151 minute, 15 secondswar against Iran And uh um you know I've been uh visiting Iran even living part
1:221 minute, 22 secondsof the year in Iran for now uh uh 25 years. So since 2000 and more precisely since 2002
1:311 minute, 31 secondsuh really every year uh there were some some articles about uh plans of military
1:371 minute, 37 secondsoperations against Iran special operations uh bombing or nuclear site or sabotage
1:471 minute, 47 secondsand uh it was never a question of a grand invasion but during years and years
1:541 minute, 54 secondsthere was there for plans for for attacking Iran. But I I never thought it was really serious in the sense that uh
2:022 minutes, 2 secondsonce again given the the the details uh about Iran, it's not absolutely not possible to uh to to to achieve any goal
2:112 minutes, 11 secondsthere. So um history is very creative. So we we we see exactly the I would like to say the
2:192 minutes, 19 secondsalignment of planets that permitted the the illusion that Iran was weak, could be attacked, could be submitted and uh
2:282 minutes, 28 secondsbut we see that uh the analyzers and I'm not the only one to say that the analyzer that was saying even predicting
2:362 minutes, 36 secondsfew months ago that it would be a quite quagmire and a trap for for for the US.
2:422 minutes, 42 secondsit's just uh happening under our eyes and and concerning the the the the vision of Iran. Yeah, it's um you know
2:512 minutes, 51 secondsmy my first the first time I was in Iran it was in in 2000 and u one one big
2:582 minutes, 58 secondssurprise is uh to discover a country which is totally different from the image or the representation we may have
3:063 minutes, 6 secondsin the west but really totally different I don't mean that Iran is a perfect country everything is well no no not at all but it's totally different from the
3:163 minutes, 16 secondsthis kind of cliche Hey uh orientalistbased uh vision of a country of fundamentalism,
3:253 minutes, 25 secondstheocracy with a kind of close culture and uh no it's a
3:333 minutes, 33 secondsvery first of all it's a very big uh country with long history sociology which is very diverse and and
3:423 minutes, 42 secondsand complex and the life in Iran the life in Iran is totally different that what we can imagine and what I hear for
3:513 minutes, 51 secondsuh from here in in Europe in general. So um c can you give us a little a few examples
Chapter 2: Real life inside Iran
4:004 minuteslike how is it different like what what's actual versus the way it is being portrayed just like three four examples.
4:074 minutes, 7 secondsYeah, you know, from from the west, you you have the impression that it's a total dictatorship and a religious
4:144 minutes, 14 secondsdictatorship. And uh when you live with the Iranians, you you realize that they're free to move, they're free to gather, they they have their own life.
4:244 minutes, 24 secondsUh and uh that uh the idea that it's a kind of uh a government which controls everything and everything is religious,
4:354 minutes, 35 secondsthat's something that it's not uh uh correct at all. uh now uh you have to understand that Iran is again a very
4:444 minutes, 44 secondscomplex uh u uh country. So uh you have harsh contrast for instance uh between
4:514 minutes, 51 secondsnorthern tan with a I would say a cosmopolitanized even Americanized culture and some
4:594 minutes, 59 secondsregions like the the systemistan very traditional and even some other planet and uh between
5:085 minutes, 8 secondsthe the the the big cities uh the villages the north south east west you have a a great deal of ity and and and
5:185 minutes, 18 secondsand you cannot just reduce Iran to some people westernized in some big cities.
5:275 minutes, 27 secondsSo um uh the the the problem with the the the vision of Iran we have is that
5:365 minutes, 36 secondsit's much uh model determined by a jaspera in uh in the west which is of
5:435 minutes, 43 secondscourse uh liberal uh uh westernized and which has a kind of
5:505 minutes, 50 secondssometimes neo orientalist uh vision uh on their own country and they know the country only in a very partial way. I
5:585 minutes, 58 secondsmean they don't go to places outside big cities or they don't meet with uh people
6:066 minutes, 6 secondsin Iran which are is actually majority which is much more traditional or religious and um and uh we have this
6:156 minutes, 15 secondsidea that uh the the government of Iran uh is uh totally detach detached from
6:246 minutes, 24 secondsthe majority of the people which is actually not the case and um and then and but the the the main point I think
6:326 minutes, 32 secondsis that uh we acknowledge we like to acknowledge that yeah Iran is complex long history but in fact uh we always
6:426 minutes, 42 secondswant to to see uh the Müller regime and religion everywhere and and that's not
6:496 minutes, 49 secondsthe case and even the the Iranian Islam or the the the ways Iranian practice
6:576 minutes, 57 secondsIslam It's something which is totally different from what we can see in other Muslim countries. And for instance, your
7:057 minutes, 5 secondsthe Iranian Islam first is Shia. So it's different than the the the Sunni Islam.
7:137 minutes, 13 secondsAnd it's not only Shier because there is a long tradition of uh mystical Persian
7:197 minutes, 19 secondspoetry uh in Iran which had much much influence on on on the people because poetry is something that you can meet in
7:277 minutes, 27 secondseveryday life and and through the poetry you have a lot of mystical thoughts sufism and this is also something which
7:377 minutes, 37 secondsmixed with the Shia Islam in Iran and there's you know uh I I know some religious people. I know many people who
7:467 minutes, 46 secondsare not practicing Islam but are very interested in uh mystical thoughts and
7:517 minutes, 51 secondsso he has a great variety of uh of uh I would like to say uh spiritual uh uh uh
8:028 minutes, 2 secondsways of thinking uh and position. It is not has nothing to do with the uh
8:098 minutes, 9 secondsideological or state Islam that we think in the west uh determines everything.
8:188 minutes, 18 secondsNo, it's not the case. And uh but to to realize that you have really to be in Iran. And one striking thing and uh when I I hear the the analyst commentators,
8:318 minutes, 31 secondsthey are totally disconnected from uh the the the realities the the ground realities of Iran. I would like to say
8:388 minutes, 38 secondsthey see Iran with a telescope from very far and with some reports, they read books, but they cannot just imagine how life really is inside Iran.
8:518 minutes, 51 secondsHey, very brief intermission because I was recently banned from YouTube. And although I'm back, this can happen anytime again. So, please consider subscribing not only here, but to my
8:598 minutes, 59 secondsmailing list on Substack. That's pascalota.substack.com.
9:039 minutes, 3 secondsThe link's going to be in the description below. And now, back to the video.
9:079 minutes, 7 secondsYes, that's a it's a ve very western thing to do, right? To then project our uh our views on what an society is and
9:169 minutes, 16 secondsact based upon our impressions about them instead of actually I mean it's not as if we didn't study. It's not as if you know you were not a lecturer at at a
9:249 minutes, 24 secondsvery important uh uh uh institution uh university in Switzerland but but it doesn't seep through right also into the
9:329 minutes, 32 secondsinto public discourse. But let me just ask one thing because I had this this this surprise about two months ago,
9:399 minutes, 39 secondsshortly before the war started. I coincidentally had a dinner with two Iranian friends, a couple, and he's they're from the north, from Tris, from
Chapter 3: Wine tradition and private life
9:479 minutes, 47 secondsthe Azeri part, and they brought me a beautiful bottle of wine from um actually from Aar Bejan, not from not from Iran, but you know, same ethnicity,
9:579 minutes, 57 secondsright? that um and they said like look this kind of wine we also make of course at home around Tibris and I was like oh
10:0410 minutes, 4 secondswow I'm I'm surprised because isn't it an Islamic country are you allowed to to make wine and he looked at me and said like look Pascal wine in Iran is much
10:1210 minutes, 12 secondsolder than our relatively young religion and I was like oh yeah right there's there's other things that actually that define Iran and than than just the
10:2110 minutes, 21 secondsreligion and of course the the 600 400,500 years of of Islam are are not all defining when it comes to Iran.
10:3010 minutes, 30 secondsIs that is that big? So yeah, exactly. And concerning wine, it's very interesting because the the tradition uh drinking wine uh goes back
10:4010 minutes, 40 secondsto antiquity in Iran. And when Islam came, it didn't disappear. Of course,
10:4610 minutes, 46 secondsmajority of the the the people start um stopped uh drinking wine. But in the aristocrresses, in some mystical
10:5510 minutes, 55 secondscircles, in literary circles, they continue to to drink crime. And and and nowadays, it's absolutely the case. and
11:0411 minutes, 4 secondsuh and and uh and and you know it's maybe my my Muslim friends in Iran will forgive me to say that but uh as a Swiss
11:1311 minutes, 13 secondsuh I started really drinking alcohol in Iran because uh you know I was invited
11:2011 minutes, 20 secondsin parties where everybody was drinking something vodka, wine and I was the only European not to drink. So it was quite
11:2811 minutes, 28 secondsweird to me. So I little by little very responsively I have to say uh I started to drink but not all the families like
11:3711 minutes, 37 secondslike that. I mean I also know many many uh people who who don't drink or really a religious practice. So, so you have
11:4511 minutes, 45 secondsyou can you can find everything uh in Iran. And this is this diversity that uh really uh we we don't uh understand from
11:5411 minutes, 54 secondsuh from the west. And once again, when you just only read books or articles uh about Iran, it's not enough to give you
12:0312 minutes, 3 secondsthe the the sense of the organic life in the country. And and yes, wine is everywhere. You can you can people are
12:1212 minutes, 12 secondsmaking wine themselves. So it's not always a great success of taste maybe. Uh but uh uh alcohol
12:2112 minutes, 21 secondscomes from Iraq mainly and you have some whisies and I know people who have a collection of whiskey which is just
12:2912 minutes, 29 secondsincredible. So no it's um and of course it's it's something which is underground. It's hidden. It's private.
12:3712 minutes, 37 secondsUh but we realize in Iran that in in privacy everything is possible almost.
12:4312 minutes, 43 secondsUm according according to my friend who's who's an um an anthropologist he says like even wine making is still
12:5012 minutes, 50 secondspossible also if it's not too hidden but I don't know how how much that's the case but the just just the observation
12:5712 minutes, 57 secondsthat the very famous Shiraas grape actually named after city shiras in Iran
13:0513 minutes, 5 secondsexactly the itself was a revelation that it's like okay uh and life is much more diverse of course than than than you
Chapter 4: Military misread and war delusion
13:1313 minutes, 13 secondsthink, but you you said at the beginning that you didn't think that the United States and Israel could be that foolish to do this because all of the factors
13:2113 minutes, 21 secondsspeak against success uh uh of a military operation. What are the factors that you're thinking about that that made you believe that they wouldn't
13:2913 minutes, 29 secondsactually go through with this with this constant saber rattling?
13:3513 minutes, 35 secondsWell, uh you just have to to to to look uh the Iranian strategy. They have a uh
13:4313 minutes, 43 secondsuh multiple uh strategy uh military economic uh so uh they're using the
13:5213 minutes, 52 secondscentral geographic position to harm uh the world economy to harm the neighboring countries that are helping
14:0214 minutes, 2 secondsuh Americans to uh bomb Iran and uh the Iran is not too far from Israel at least
14:0814 minutes, 8 secondsfor the the ballistic missile. Nice. And um and and I think that the you know I was in Tehran during the the 12 days
14:1614 minutes, 16 secondswar. So um there was they were bombing Tehran day and night and and but at the
14:2414 minutes, 24 secondsvery end uh Uranus was still continuing to to fire missiles towards Israel and eventually Israel asked for a ceasefire.
14:3314 minutes, 33 secondsSo it means that all the speculation about the number of missiles that Iran may have uh it's just uh maybe not uh
14:4314 minutes, 43 secondsthe point because obviously Iran has military infrastructure all around the country that allows uh it
14:5214 minutes, 52 secondsto uh uh to retaliate during months and months and because they are really the
14:5914 minutes, 59 secondsheart of the Middle East they can have an impact on the Belgian economy, on the world economy and uh all these datas,
15:1015 minutes, 10 secondsall these fact factors were very well known uh because the the the down of the straight of hormones is
15:1915 minutes, 19 secondssomething that is evoked for for years and years. If Iran is attacked, it can retaliate on the straight of hormones.
15:2515 minutes, 25 secondsSo, it's not nothing new. And when you gather all the these factors, you you say, "No, it's just not possible to
15:3215 minutes, 32 secondsreally uh to attack Iran without uh uh big losses and without uh
15:4115 minutes, 41 secondsa clear goal to be uh achieved." So, so and once again when you know a little
15:4715 minutes, 47 secondsbit Iran is uh it's absolutely obvious that uh Iran is too big to fall, too big
15:5615 minutes, 56 secondsto fail and and and you cannot you cannot take it simply and we think I mean in the media you can read that yeah
16:0416 minutes, 4 secondsmaybe we can overthrow the government because uh or we can we can win over Iran
16:1016 minutes, 10 secondsbecause they have a a kind of fantasmatic or or kind delusional
16:1716 minutes, 17 secondsvision of the country. They they think that it's weak that the the population is backwards that it's a kind of exotic
16:2616 minutes, 26 secondstribe so you just kill the leader and everything collapse. Not at all. And when you you you you know Iran even a
16:3316 minutes, 33 secondslittle bit even the tourist two weeks three weeks there you can understand like the size of the country the the the
16:4016 minutes, 40 secondsthe mental strength of of of the people the nationalism and uh uh without being
16:4716 minutes, 47 secondsa military expert uh I know uh that uh Iranian army is uh is quite strong has
16:5516 minutes, 55 secondsmultiple uh expertise coming back from uh Iran Iraq war in the 1980s and even
17:0417 minutes, 4 secondsuh uh uh it's rooted in a military tradition that is very old. So when you you you g all these factors say no it's
17:1217 minutes, 12 secondsjust a a foolish idea. So if this foolish ID uh came to reality to to a
17:2017 minutes, 20 secondswar, it's because uh most analysts uh live in a bubble and just uh didn't
17:2817 minutes, 28 secondsanalyze Iran as it is, but just created a projective image of Iran corresponding to the desire. But the reality is very,
17:3817 minutes, 38 secondsyou know, always track his back. So uh uh uh once again I think that it's it's a uh Iran is a a very interesting case
17:4717 minutes, 47 secondsstudy for me how you you build a vision or representation of a country which has
17:5517 minutes, 55 secondsalmost nothing to do with the many realities of the the country. This is something
18:0218 minutes, 2 secondsuh fundamental because uh if you have a a wrong conception of of something of
18:1018 minutes, 10 secondscourse every initiative you take will fail.
18:1418 minutes, 14 secondsI I in in in another talk I once called this the the the western donkey hot
18:2118 minutes, 21 secondsapproach of like of imagining that this thing in front of you as a giant and then you charge toward it but even if
18:2918 minutes, 29 secondsyou see the giant very clearly if it's just a windmill then you have a problem and you're going to hurt yourself and I
18:3618 minutes, 36 secondsthink I mean so the this is another instance where then the United States is fighting something that is different
18:4318 minutes, 43 secondsfrom what even their analysis says it is. So that's I think that's the criticism, right?
18:4918 minutes, 49 secondsYeah. And and I think the the issue is that uh Donald Trump um
18:5818 minutes, 58 secondsis ignorant of the region. Maybe he's living in a bubble and the information he receives comes from uh his inner
19:0719 minutes, 7 secondscircle which basically works uh for Israel. So I'm also surprised how much
19:1319 minutes, 13 secondsIsrael doesn't understand uh that uh it really cannot win u war against uh Iran.
19:2219 minutes, 22 secondsSo um the the problem is the the US is uh into a trap fell into a trap with
19:3019 minutes, 30 secondsAmerican soldiers who are playing the the role of mercenaries for another country Israel
19:3819 minutes, 38 secondswithout uh any clear goal without any plan without uh any way out uh and and
19:4519 minutes, 45 secondsand now we see that uh uh it's absolutely impossible to uh
19:5219 minutes, 52 secondsUh again to to um to to win uh over a country which goes back to antiquity which has a a cultural,
20:0520 minutes, 5 secondsmilitary, national solidity that uh we always underestimated uh in the west and
20:1320 minutes, 13 secondswe because we we we think that Iran is complex. there is a divide between the government and the people which is true to a certain extent. We think that well
20:2220 minutes, 22 secondseverything is like a a house of cards and it like that. No, it's a once again it's it's a bias
20:3020 minutes, 30 secondsan orientalist bias. But I'm surprised that United States has many many uh uh professors, faculty members,
20:4220 minutes, 42 secondsuniversities studying Iran or Israel country in the region uh could not
20:4920 minutes, 49 secondsunderstand that. So uh once again it's it's a problem of knowledge and uh how
20:5620 minutes, 56 secondsuh is it possible that the the people competent uh to understand a country have no power of decision or have no
21:0521 minutes, 5 secondsinfluence of on the decision making. I think this is a big lesson for uh for
21:1121 minutes, 11 secondsevery uh level of decision making and and every level of uh I would like to
21:1821 minutes, 18 secondssay uh academic approach or uh to
21:2621 minutes, 26 secondsa country because obviously there is a failure at every level.
Chapter 5: Media bias and missing experts
21:3221 minutes, 32 secondsYou're you're in Switzerland like how how did it how did it go there? Um, I mean, in terms of media attention, since you are an Iran expert and you're from
21:4021 minutes, 40 secondsthe French-speaking part, did the French speaking media in Switzerland flock to interview you in order to to understand what is happening? And, you know, the
21:4821 minutes, 48 secondsSwiss government has been, to my surprise, positive surprise, quite being quite critical and the foreign ministry actually put out statements saying that
21:5621 minutes, 56 secondsthey do not condone that they think it is it is bad that the United States and Israel attacked Iran. They put out such tweets, which surprised me. they they
22:0322 minutes, 3 secondstend to be uh uh uh less less uh uh outspoken. Um, but how was the experience for you as an as an Iran
22:1122 minutes, 11 secondsexpert in the West in Switzerland now that this uh uh uh war was was wrought upon Iran? Did you did you get a lot of attention?
22:2022 minutes, 20 secondsNo, not at all. Not at all. uh I I can understand in a very proactive way. uh uh the media not only in Switzerland, I
22:3022 minutes, 30 secondssee in France for instance uh the the experts invited or the analysts invited
22:3722 minutes, 37 secondsuh are people who have have a a very strong oriented uh even ideological uh
22:4622 minutes, 46 secondsperception of Iran or there are people from uh the diaspora or uh clearly opponents to the Islamic Republic. So
22:5522 minutes, 55 secondsthe idea is really to create a negative dark uh image uh of Iran. So really
23:0323 minutes, 3 secondssometimes an impression that they're just in the line with a war propaganda and uh it would be a wonderful study to
23:1123 minutes, 11 secondsto do after the war. I mean to to study the different uh ways that media talked about the the the the conflict. So someone like me who who who knows Iran,
23:2323 minutes, 23 secondswho uh has been living in Iran part of the year for for years and years, who know the society, the the the the
23:3123 minutes, 31 secondspolitical dynamics, they're not interested in someone like me in as much as I I would propose a much more nuanced
23:3923 minutes, 39 secondsand complex representation of the country. So, no, I I'm never invited and
23:4623 minutes, 46 secondsuh the the people invited usually are from the diaspora which is more or less disconnected from from from the country
23:5423 minutes, 54 secondsand um and or analysts who have once again a very
24:0224 minutes, 2 secondsuh oriented uh vision of Iran and you know when immediately they talk about the Iranian regime, the Islamic regime,
24:1024 minutes, 10 secondsthe regime change, you know that they are in a very precise paradigm and I mean there it's not even uh uh possible
24:2024 minutes, 20 secondsI mean to uh uh to counter this kind of massive arguments because they have a
24:2624 minutes, 26 secondsframework and that they put all Iran in this framework and it's more ideological than anything else so after that you can
24:3424 minutes, 34 secondsyou take a lot of time to explain no it's more complex than that you have to to explain the history we run you to to
24:4324 minutes, 43 secondsdevelop a bit and of course uh the medias they don't have the time and and sometimes they don't want to because uh
24:5124 minutes, 51 secondsbecause it's something uh I'm I'm um you know I had experience uh of this
25:0025 minutesuh this this construction of uh the image of Iran uh from uh well the beginning of 2000 and even before I mean
25:0825 minutes, 8 secondsbut since 2000 that they're really studying on the Uh and uh what was very
25:1525 minutes, 15 secondssurprising to me it was around uh 2015 2016 because uh they had signed the
25:2325 minutes, 23 secondsGCPOA uh in in 2015 and um uh uh before that
25:3125 minutes, 31 secondsuh when the you had magazines or books on Iran very often you had some
25:3825 minutes, 38 secondspresentation of Iran as a kind of Islamic fascist country with images
25:4425 minutes, 44 secondsrelated to a nuclear weapon and of course Iran was considered as a threat. They
25:5425 minutes, 54 secondswanted to have the bomb and after that they could bomb Israel or other countries. But when they signed the
26:0026 minutesGCPOA suddenly almost overnight everything changed in the media.
26:0626 minutes, 6 secondsSuddenly on the cover magazine you could see beautiful ladies with the scarf young ladies and with some titles like
26:1526 minutes, 15 secondsIran is back a big civilization and so on. And once Donald Trump left the JCPOA
26:2426 minutes, 24 secondsagain uh we went back to uh the the nuclear mushroom the nuclear symbol and
26:3126 minutes, 31 secondsthe threat uh uh posed by Iran. So I really understood how
26:3826 minutes, 38 secondseasy it's to to to build a or to imprison a country into a a
26:4726 minutes, 47 secondsnegative image and when uh there are some economic interests then when there's a possibilities to make business
26:5626 minutes, 56 secondswith Iran suddenly you can change this image once again overnight and that
27:0327 minutes, 3 secondsinstead of talking about the moolas uh the the the nuclear bomb uh the Islamic
27:1027 minutes, 10 secondstheocracy or you have beautiful ladies the many potentials of uh Uranian economy so it's a it's a it's a media
27:1927 minutes, 19 secondsgame but nowadays the problem is that really there are most of the media and I
27:2727 minutes, 27 secondsdon't pretend that I see everything but most of media at least the mainstream media and in Switzerland as well in
27:3427 minutes, 34 secondsFrance, they are just following a kind of war propaganda worst case scenario or
27:4127 minutes, 41 secondsat least they are just repeating what we have heard for for decades about the Müller regime, the religious oppression and so on.
27:5027 minutes, 50 secondsIt it is quite fascinating, isn't it?
27:5327 minutes, 53 secondsBecause like we are both Swiss. I mean I wouldn't think that Switzerland has a guided uh uh press that that there that
28:0028 minutesthey are somehow like centrally controlled uh guidelines coming down.
28:0528 minutes, 5 secondsNot at all. I mean it is a it's a quite free liberal country where the press can more or less write whatever they want.
28:1228 minutes, 12 secondsBut for one reason or another, this epistemic bubble that we created in the in western countries then leads these
28:1928 minutes, 19 secondsthese different uh media outlets to report in only one way and then repeat certain key phrases. Regime is one for
28:2728 minutes, 27 secondsIran. Moola is the other one. Um can you explain this one to me? By the way, I never understood why we why it is called a moola regime because I don't I mean I
Chapter 6: The mullah regime label
28:3628 minutes, 36 secondsknow about the Ayatollah. I know about uh the the the the the government structure including the the the the the power of the IRGC and and different branches of government. But the moola,
28:4728 minutes, 47 secondscan you explain that to me? Uh yeah, moola is it's a it's a cleric,
28:5228 minutes, 52 secondsa Shia cleric. So uh and and uh it's someone who studies
29:0029 minutesuh Islamic tradition, law, Jewish prudence, philosophy for years and years
29:0729 minutes, 7 secondsand even uh decades and uh they receive uh some certificate of competence. So
29:1529 minutes, 15 secondsAyatah is one of the the highest rank but you have also Islam and moola is the the common title for for the car. So you
29:2429 minutes, 24 secondshave to understand that uh the the the moola uh these are the uh the backbone
29:3229 minutes, 32 secondsof the the the Shia community and and not only nowadays for centuries
29:3929 minutes, 39 secondsum because Shia if you we just uh evoke a bit of history uh Shia uh uh is uh an
29:4929 minutes, 49 secondsIslamic uh division born after the the death of the uh prophet Phet Muhammad.
29:5529 minutes, 55 secondsThere was a a debate among the the the Muslims of the that prophet uh who we uh
30:0230 minutes, 2 secondsbe at the head of the the young uh Muslim community. And uh for the Shia uh there was only one person who could be
30:1030 minutes, 10 secondsthe real hair of the the prophet. It was Ali who had uh uh married uh the
30:1830 minutes, 18 secondsdaughter of Muhammad Fatima. But the majority of uh the Muslims they didn't
30:2530 minutes, 25 secondsagree. They chose Abu Bak who became the first of the four sunni khifs. So the
30:3230 minutes, 32 secondsShia uh decided that or in their opinion Ali was the real hair spiritual hair of
30:4030 minutes, 40 secondsthe prophet. So Ali is not for the SH the the fourth of the four califfs is
30:4630 minutes, 46 secondsthe first of the imam. And uh Ali and Fatima had two sons, Hassan and
30:5330 minutes, 53 secondsHussein. Hussein who became martyed in in Kbala in 680. And then uh uh from
31:0131 minutes, 1 secondfather to son you have uh 12 imas at least for the the sh in in in Iran. And
31:0831 minutes, 8 secondsthe 12th I imam uh disappeared mysteriously mysteriously in the 10th century. and uh he's supposed to come
31:1831 minutes, 18 secondsback in the end of times. It's the one of the very important um aspect of the metaphysics of history of esquetology of
31:2731 minutes, 27 secondsuh of the the the 12 Shia. So this after the the the 12th I imam uh disappeared,
31:3531 minutes, 35 secondsthe question was what to do because there is no guidance and little by little the clerics what we call the mas
31:4331 minutes, 43 secondsbecame more and more important because in the absence of a great imam they were uh the uh responsible for the
31:5231 minutes, 52 secondsinterpretation of the Islamic uh uh heritage uh for the Quran for the hadith for the the all the traditions of the
32:0032 minutesimam Um and little by little along the centuries they became really um uh the bedrock of the the Shian community and
32:0932 minutes, 9 secondswhat changed in 16th century uh Iran became Shia became a Shia kingdom and
32:1732 minutes, 17 secondsfrom this period onward uh there's a world power uh which is really uh uh
32:2632 minutes, 26 secondsconnected sometimes intertwined with a hierarchy of of uh of uh
32:3432 minutes, 34 secondsclaries who are responsible for uh the interpretation of the the the Shia tradition, the Islamic tradition and the
32:4332 minutes, 43 secondsmodernity of the Islamic Republic is we have this principle of religious
32:4832 minutes, 48 secondsguidance inside embodied in a republican uh system. But first you have to to say
32:5732 minutes, 57 secondsthat uh not all the members of government are mas not at all. I mean you have you can find more lines in in
33:0433 minutes, 4 secondsmany uh different institutions that's certain but uh um mainly I mean
33:1233 minutes, 12 secondspolitic process and politic decisions there are uh I mean secular people and the other thing is that uh the presence
33:2133 minutes, 21 secondsof religion in uh in the state is once again something very old it's not something new so it's part of the
33:2933 minutes, 29 secondsculture even part of the nationalism of Iran. So saying that uh it's a Müller
33:3733 minutes, 37 secondsregime, it's really not to understand that uh the the complex city of Iranian
33:4433 minutes, 44 secondsstate, it's uh not only a state nation as we know it more or less and coming
33:5133 minutes, 51 secondsback from 19th century European uh model, it's a republic. uh it's also a
33:5833 minutes, 58 secondsreligious country and it's also uh a country which is the hair of uh empires
34:0734 minutes, 7 secondsbecause uh the first really universal empire is the Aimenan Empire 6th century before Christ and and from this period
34:1634 minutes, 16 secondsonward uh Iranians uh used to uh to to rule to uh administrate uh empires of
34:2434 minutes, 24 secondsthe kingdom. So there's also something of this imperial traditions in the present day uh historic republic of
34:3434 minutes, 34 secondsIran. So just to to say it's a moola regime, it makes no sense and and it's just a way to uh project onto Iran a
34:4334 minutes, 43 secondskind of secularist, anti-religious or anti-Islamic uh prejudice. It just it just shows that
34:5234 minutes, 52 secondsthe people who use that phrase or the this this this these two these two words just don't have an idea um how the how
34:5934 minutes, 59 secondsthe thing how how Iran actually works as a political entity. Um the can you tell me though like this uh the religious
35:0735 minutes, 7 secondspart um we know that there are Jews living in Iran. We know that there are other uh uh religious denominations in
Chapter 7: Minorities and national identity
35:1535 minutes, 15 secondsIran. Um how is how is that working? and maybe so my friend he very much kind of
35:2235 minutes, 22 secondsdisputes the legitimacy even of the idea of ethnicity but the different the different groups that that together make
35:2935 minutes, 29 secondsup the Iranians the Iranians today um how is that mix working because it seems that one of the misunderstandings of the
35:3735 minutes, 37 secondswest is that as soon as you drop a couple of bombs then the individual suppressed minorities will rise up and
35:4535 minutes, 45 secondsand and throw up the regime throw the regime and they will either build a new western utopia in uh in Thran or they
35:5435 minutes, 54 secondswill break up into little constituencies and then do their own thing because everybody just wants to be free from the yoke of central uh suppression.
36:0336 minutes, 3 secondsWell, you you have some religious minorities in in Iran. Some are very old. Yeah. You have Jews.
36:1136 minutes, 11 secondsuh not many uh I think less than 10,000 Jews in in Iran nowadays uh but I don't
36:1836 minutes, 18 secondshave the exact figure and you have also different forms of Christianity you have Armenian uh uh
36:2736 minutes, 27 secondslargest Christian community you have historians or would you call Assyrians uh you have Zoroastrianism
36:3536 minutes, 35 secondsuh Zoroastrianism was the religion uh Iranians had uh before Islam and uh with
36:4436 minutes, 44 secondsthe arrival of Islam many years or Austrians converted into Islam or they they went to other countries like like
36:5136 minutes, 51 secondsIndia but still nowadays even if it's a really small minority now you have Zoras Krians so there these are communities
36:5936 minutes, 59 secondsthat the fully integrated with the state and uh because it's an Islamic republic the idea is that it's an Islamic idea
37:0937 minutes, 9 secondsthat the the the the the the non-Muslim communities that Islam uh recognizes
37:1837 minutes, 18 secondsuh uh uh can live without any problem within uh a Muslim society. Uh they
37:2637 minutes, 26 secondscannot uh preach the faith or to try to convert other people but they are free to practice the their rituals. They are
37:3537 minutes, 35 secondsuh they have the the the temples or churches or synagogues.
37:4037 minutes, 40 secondsuh they they have they can they can uh follow their their own uh custom for instance to have alcohol because
37:4837 minutes, 48 secondsChristians of God they they can alcohol and and uh and of course uh with the Islamic revolution there was a a certain
37:5637 minutes, 56 secondspressure on this non-Muslim communities but uh nowadays uh you you you can find
38:0438 minutes, 4 secondsyou can meet many Zorasians or or Christians I mean Christians that feel
38:1038 minutes, 10 secondsthat they are Iranians uh like uh uh Muslim Iranians and that also
38:1738 minutes, 17 secondsnationalist and that they feel that it's not uh when US and Israel attack Iran
38:2538 minutes, 25 secondsthey attacking their country not uh a country that whose government they want to to overthrow no not at all so uh and
38:3438 minutes, 34 secondsum and this these non-Muslim communities they are very old I mean Austrians they
38:4038 minutes, 40 secondsdied die in in in in Iran for thousands of years literally speaking. Uh so are
38:4838 minutes, 48 secondsJews. Uh unfortunately after the Islamic revolution many Jews went to uh immigrated to to to to Israel but Armenians they here for for for
38:5638 minutes, 56 secondscenturies and so I really they are really part of the country of the culture of the country and there are many
39:0439 minutes, 4 secondsfriendships between Armenians and Zorans and and Muslims on everyday life. I mean
39:1239 minutes, 12 secondsthe the the the religious question is not on the table because at certain point I mean the the the everyday
39:2139 minutes, 21 secondsculture uh doesn't pertain to to religion. It's the art of living, it's the food, it's the the socialability,
39:2939 minutes, 29 secondsit's all these kind of things. Uh which may of course have a a religious
39:3539 minutes, 35 secondsdimension. But uh no, it's uh you know when you you talk with people uh you
39:4339 minutes, 43 secondsrealize that they they feel Iranians because it's the even if they are not Muslim they feel that the history of Iran is also their history.
39:5339 minutes, 53 secondsWhat is your assessment about the political situation inside um well the higher echelons of of power in Thran? Um
Chapter 8: Power factions and state structure
40:0340 minutes, 3 secondsmy friend and and colleague Hines Gartner an emeritus professor at the University of uh Vienna. He kept pointing out to me a couple of years
40:1140 minutes, 11 secondsago, look, they um there are serious disagreements of how to uh conduct foreign policy. And one of the examples he brought is that whenever the uh
40:2040 minutes, 20 secondsforeign ministry of Iran tends to uh uh get closer to successes with in its diplomacy with the west, what would
40:2840 minutes, 28 secondsfrequently happen is that the ministry of justice, which is run by much more uh uh more hardliners would just execute uh
40:3740 minutes, 37 secondshuman rights activists, which then would create a a storm of uh of uh news in in Europe and and the United States and
40:4640 minutes, 46 secondsthen kind of sabotage the uh some of the the uh diplomatic efforts of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. So, do you have any kind of um
40:5540 minutes, 55 secondsdo you have observations about these the different factions and the different types of like let's say people in Iran
41:0341 minutes, 3 secondsand their and their conception of how the country should run its foreign policy with the future that you can can share with us?
41:1141 minutes, 11 secondsUh yes first of all yes there are huge divisions among the the the power in Iran I mean uh it's it's
41:1941 minutes, 19 secondssomething that well studied and it's not a mystery it come uh and goes back to the the Islamic revolution because the
41:2741 minutes, 27 secondsIslamic revolution uh uh created a divide uh between it's very shatic but
41:3541 minutes, 35 secondsuh let's put it that way uh between uh the really the revolutionaries who wanted really uh to uh pursue an
41:4241 minutes, 42 secondsanti-imperialist anti-western policy and what we call the so they say the hardliners and uh other
41:5141 minutes, 51 secondspeople who were more pragmatic more realistic thinking that okay there was a re
41:5841 minutes, 58 secondsrevolutions but after a few years we have to go back to normal diplomatic relationship so we have to uh normalize
42:0742 minutes, 7 secondsuh our relations with European countries of the west and uh that's how you can find this uh uh politic position on the
42:1642 minutes, 16 secondsreformist or the pragmatist or the realist whatever the the the name so there there are two really two uh strong
42:2442 minutes, 24 secondsposition and of course there are in the middle all the possibilities I mean some people are and this is also the the
42:3142 minutes, 31 secondscomplexity of the the the politics in Iran uh you you may have a conser conservative you think it's a hardliner
42:3842 minutes, 38 secondsuh but uh who are who is way enough that uh we have to be realistic uh for the
42:4742 minutes, 47 secondsinternational relations. So um and you have also some reformists that f from
42:5442 minutes, 54 secondssome reason are very strict also on the uh normalizations with with the west. So
43:0043 minutesyou have all the kinds of uh I mean uh uh interpretations of some uh fundamentals of Iranian politics. So
43:0943 minutes, 9 secondsnowadays what it changes everything is the war because uh during the Iran Iraq
43:1543 minutes, 15 secondswar um the the the first priority was to defend uh the country the homeland and
43:2443 minutes, 24 secondsto put aside uh the political divisions and uh first we defend the country and then we talk about uh politics and and
43:3243 minutes, 32 secondsnowadays uh I think it's exactly more or less the same uh the prototypes the division the the the the tensions
43:4043 minutes, 40 secondsbetween the the different fractions and sometimes very violent uh oppositions because the priority is to uh unite
43:5043 minutes, 50 secondsagainst uh the the the aggression and after the war of course all these divisions all the uh issues will come
43:5843 minutes, 58 secondsback because we will find again a strong position between uh the people who wants really to to make a complete shift
44:0544 minutes, 5 secondstowards uh the east with China, Russia and not to deal anymore with the west or
44:1244 minutes, 12 secondswith a very very limited u impact and some realistics maybe analyst analysts
44:2144 minutes, 21 secondsthat will say that no we we have any way to normalize the relations relations with all the countries uh in the world
44:2844 minutes, 28 secondsincluding the west so for the moment I think the divisions and the internal oppositions uh inside the the the
44:3644 minutes, 36 secondsgovernment are just silent And because once again we are in a state of emergency and the the first thing is to
44:4444 minutes, 44 secondsto to to finish the war and best terms possible and after that of course uh there will be a hot debates uh
44:5344 minutes, 53 secondsin the power uh say okay what can we do now but it will be all depend on the on the how the the war ends uh and what uh Iran will get uh with an agreement.
45:0745 minutes, 7 secondsUh and and but yeah anyway you have to to think that behind
45:1445 minutes, 14 secondsthe the idea maybe the the the concept that there is a kind of uh homogenity of
45:2345 minutes, 23 secondsthinking inside the Islamic Republic because everybody is obliged to uh um uh
45:3145 minutes, 31 secondsto to accept the system. there there are really uh uh strong divisions hot debates and
45:4045 minutes, 40 secondsuh each time I had political discussion and many in Iran I mean it's really uh you cannot imagine I mean the the the
45:4945 minutes, 49 secondstalk about that in very free ways there's no taboo it's something that they they know that the the the country
45:5745 minutes, 57 secondsis divided on the political level so it will depend on the end of the war on the the politic of the new supreme leader uh
46:0546 minutes, 5 secondson the on the on the uh the political forces that we we can find uh after the
46:1446 minutes, 14 secondswar uh and of course it's there are many many parameters we don't know now is
46:2146 minutes, 21 secondsshould we should we understand the role of the supreme leader Ayatah
46:2846 minutes, 28 secondsum Hame the new Ayatah Hame now uh his father before. Um should we understand that role more like the supreme leader
46:3746 minutes, 37 secondsin uh let's say North Korea where we have to imagine a dictator who rules with iron fist or should we more understand him as a kind of a balancer
46:4546 minutes, 45 secondsin chief that who has to play with the different factions that are all relevant toward political power um including well
46:5446 minutes, 54 secondsI mean we know that there are all of these factions so what what what is his role within the what the practical role within the system? Well, the the the
47:0347 minutes, 3 secondssupreme leader have uh have many function. The the idea is to have a a religious guidance at the the the top of
47:1047 minutes, 10 secondsthe state because it's once again very old Shia tradition even though the the the very system of the Islamic Republic
47:1847 minutes, 18 secondsis very modern even modernist. Uh but the idea is that to uh to have a
47:2447 minutes, 24 secondsreligious guidance that uh uh so uh the the country follows
47:3147 minutes, 31 secondsuh Islamic principles in uh politics and in the society. Now this is the theory
47:3947 minutes, 39 secondsbut in practice it's much more complex and uh what we see when you observe in politics sometime some sometimes nothing
47:4647 minutes, 46 secondsto do with uh with religion because it's one kind of political realism or
47:5447 minutes, 54 secondsimperial traditions or politics that any polic that any state nation would uh uh
48:0248 minutes, 2 secondswould follow. And uh it's not because uh a cleric the supreme leader uh says
48:0948 minutes, 9 secondssomething or uh recommend to do this or that that it's
48:1648 minutes, 16 secondsreligious in its basis. Sometimes uh what he says it's just political stuff in a very uh basic sense
48:2548 minutes, 25 secondsof term. It has nothing to do really with religions in the very street of term. So the super leader as you said is
48:3448 minutes, 34 secondsthe top of the the the state. He's a kind of playing the role of
48:4148 minutes, 41 secondsa a kind of balance of power between different factions. He's a symbol of unity. He's
48:5048 minutes, 50 secondsmorally responsible for the Islamic orientation or at least parents of the the the country. uh uh and he represents
48:5948 minutes, 59 secondswhat we can call the deep state. I mean the awareness that really fundamentally speaking Iran uh yes it has an
49:0949 minutes, 9 secondsrepublican dimension but it's root in history and the history is at the same
49:1549 minutes, 15 secondstimes a sense of religion and a sense of empire and uh because all the empires of
49:2549 minutes, 25 secondsIran were uh really deeply connected to a sacred dimension. It once again goes
49:3349 minutes, 33 secondsback to to the antiquity. So the deep state in the case of Iran is the conscience that religion is one of the
49:4149 minutes, 41 secondsfundamental identity axis of the country and that there is also an imperial axis uh that
49:5049 minutes, 50 secondsuh really is rooted in history and the deep state is fundamentally that and the the the supreme leader represent also
49:5849 minutes, 58 secondsthis kind of deep state. So he has a a function which is really uh multiple.
50:0450 minutes, 4 secondsNow what will MBA will do? I don't know because before before the war you know
50:1150 minutes, 11 secondsuh uh when I had some political discussions with her people in in Iran re knowing the system inside the system
50:2050 minutes, 20 secondsuh uh the the the the function the very function of supreme leader will question uh do we keep it uh do we transform it
50:2950 minutes, 29 secondsinto something which is less political and more say religious moral or or or
50:3650 minutes, 36 secondsdid we change did trans do we transform this uh function of discipline into something which looks like a council
50:4550 minutes, 45 secondswith several people and not only one person at the top. So there were this kind of debates. It was only uh there
50:5450 minutes, 54 secondswere only debates but it showed that uh the choice of MTA uh was done in a very specific context a
51:0251 minutes, 2 secondscontext of war of emergency and uh because he was next to his father he's
51:1151 minutes, 11 secondsum uh cleric so he knows that uh the the the
51:1851 minutes, 18 secondspredence were sufficient level of of capitans his of course has betrayed by his father on political
51:2651 minutes, 26 secondsuh and political work. So uh obviously they wanted to to create a kind of
51:3551 minutes, 35 secondscontinuity of allegiance of of doctrines of uh so the unity of the country would
51:4451 minutes, 44 secondsbe preserved in the very circumstances where we are. uh but after the war no one knows because of of course Moini uh
51:5451 minutes, 54 secondsis another generation simply and he's well aware that the the country has changed uh for oh four decades that the
52:0452 minutes, 4 secondsthe policy of his father will certainly not be his policy even if it's in tracks of his father. So um uh so there are
52:1452 minutes, 14 secondsmuch more question than answer at this point. Uh so but one thing is that uh despite the divisions the internal
52:2352 minutes, 23 secondsoppositions and very strong ones within the Iranian system it's a a solid system because Iranians they know when to
52:3352 minutes, 33 secondswe can fight uh against each other within the republic system and when they have to make the unity against a common threat against the country.
52:4552 minutes, 45 secondsI find is fascinating, you know, okay,
52:4752 minutes, 47 secondson the one hand certainly the administrative capacities that go back 2,000 at least 2,600 years to administer Kru that size. On the other hand, I find
52:5552 minutes, 55 secondsit I find it really interesting that you're framing the his role as um being basically the head of the deep state. I just had a discussion with Aaron Good
53:0353 minutes, 3 secondswho who also says like in the United States to think that the political system of the United States is just the Senate and the and the White House and
53:1153 minutes, 11 secondsand so on is stupid. Of course, the political realities in the United States works part and parcel with all of the
53:1853 minutes, 18 secondsforces that are not directly part of the constitutional order, but it's it's part and parcel of how the United States as a political system works. So, if you're
53:2553 minutes, 25 secondsframing Data as just being the visible head of, you know, another part of the state, that's that's that's quite valuable, I think, to to think of to
53:3453 minutes, 34 secondsfigure out how how um political structures work. But maybe you know we have about five minutes left and I just would like to ask you is there something
53:4353 minutes, 43 secondsI didn't ask you or something that's on your mind that you think is important that could be added to the discussion we already had for people to understand
53:5053 minutes, 50 secondssomething that you think is important about Iran or about the war that's now unfolding.
Chapter 9: Closing critique of Iran coverage
53:5753 minutes, 57 secondsUh well, you know, um potentially there are many things to
54:0354 minutes, 3 secondssay. uh but uh uh maybe to to set on the fact that uh uh once again uh the the
54:1354 minutes, 13 secondsrepresentation we have of Iran uh in the media in Europe it's something um um
54:2254 minutes, 22 secondsweird in and and and that's really totally misleading and once again not because uh Iran is a a country a perfect
54:3254 minutes, 32 secondscountry with a kind of harmony and and and it's kind of paradise. No, not not at all. Uh and then you know as a
54:4054 minutes, 40 secondsresearcher uh my my uh uh the my purpose
54:4654 minutes, 46 secondsmy my my goals is to to have the the most complete accurate relevant I would
54:5354 minutes, 53 secondssay neutral uh vision of the many realities sometimes contradictory of a
55:0055 minutescountry. But what I hear, what I I I read uh uh in in the medias is uh always
55:1055 minutes, 10 secondsum uh uh bias of interpretation that want you want to be this or that and uh
55:1855 minutes, 18 secondsand and of course I know the diaspora uh a bit in in in in the west and of course
55:2455 minutes, 24 secondsthey have some uh uh trajectory of life that are very uh common they are
55:3255 minutes, 32 secondseconomic immigrants or they they were opponents to the the Islamic Republic and of course they took refuge here uh
55:3955 minutes, 39 secondsin in the west in the US in Europe and of course they have a a discourse of of
55:4655 minutes, 46 secondsa position and that you can fully understand that uh and I don't have to judge judge anything simply uh I I have
55:5555 minutes, 55 secondsto say again that it's one voice uh uh but there are many many other
56:0256 minutes, 2 secondsvoices uh in Iran and uh as a historian as aologist I cannot just take into
56:0956 minutes, 9 secondsaccount one voice uh and to say okay Iran is that in the framework or in the
56:1556 minutes, 15 secondswindow of this uh uh Iranian life of the Jespera and and uh once again the the
56:2256 minutes, 22 secondsthe problem is the lack of understanding and simply the lack of contact with uh
56:2956 minutes, 29 secondsIran as it is the the the living Iran and and what is interesting to me is
56:3656 minutes, 36 secondsmany people who are debating about Iran television and medias they talk about
56:4356 minutes, 43 secondsIran without Iran uh as if I mean they they decide okay in the new Iran the
56:5356 minutes, 53 secondsJasper uh will do that and this okay we can I can understand that these people have ideas and they think that when they
57:0157 minutes, 1 secondcan come back to Iran, remove the government and and uh and and and and do
57:0757 minutes, 7 secondscreate a kind of secular liberal uh type of government in Iran. Why not? But it's
57:1557 minutes, 15 secondsjust theory. And what about the more than 90 millions people living in Iran?
57:2057 minutes, 20 secondsWhat do they think? What do they know about them? Almost nothing. because they just think that uh Iranians uh should
57:3057 minutes, 30 secondsthink like they think in a liberal secular western way. There are people like that in Iran. There are many uh
57:3857 minutes, 38 secondspeople very critical of the Islamic Republic. But once again uh the Jasper and the analysts we we we can hear and
57:4757 minutes, 47 secondsread in the west, they are totally disconnected with the majority of Iranians who think otherwise. And this
57:5457 minutes, 54 secondsis why uh the Iran they talk about is not an existing Iran.
58:0158 minutes, 1 secondIt's just a projective ideal theoretical orientalist Iran but it's not uh the
58:0858 minutes, 8 secondsIran that I think any tourist Iran even 10 days two weeks could uh discover.
58:1758 minutes, 17 secondsThen let's hope that we are as soon as possible as soon as possible able again to go and do tourism to Iran and then uh
58:2458 minutes, 24 secondsand then encourage everybody to go and see it for yourself because uh you're absolutely right. I mean the kind of stereotypes that we in the west operate
58:3158 minutes, 31 secondson is is grotesque while thinking that we're the enlightened part of this of human civilization. Right. It's uh
58:3958 minutes, 39 secondsanyhow we've got to we've got to leave it at this. Um for everybody who's interested in your work, Patrick, uh you have a homepage on which you gather some
58:4758 minutes, 47 secondsof your materials. That is patrick um rickenberg.com. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's it.
58:5558 minutes, 55 secondsPatrick.com. And I also a few uh articles and um uh also books published on academia.edu.
59:0759 minutes, 7 secondsUh and yeah, that's it. And you told me you have about 10 books out on Iran, right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, maybe more. You know,
59:1659 minutes, 16 secondsafter 10, I don't count anymore. So, yeah. And uh Yeah.
59:2259 minutes, 22 secondsIf you want to if you want to read from a from a a very modest uh uh researcher who stopped counting his books, go and find books of Patrick Rickenberg. I will
59:3159 minutes, 31 secondstry to put a couple of links into the description box below. Patrick, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you very much.
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