Wrestling with Zionism - Daphna Levit
Indiana Center for Middle East Peace
252 views Feb 19, 2021 Interviews
Daphna Levit, on her latest book, Wrestling with Zionism: Jewish Voices of Dissent, in which she discusses not only contemporaries like Gideon Levy, Ilan Pappe, Noam Chomsky, Amira Hass, Michael Sfard, Shlomo Sand, but also Martin Buber, Albert Einstein, Hannah Arendt, and others.
Daphna Levit grew up in Israel, now teaching in Nova Scotia, has been active in Gush Shalom, B'tselem, Makhsom Watch, Physicians for Human Rights, and other peace organizations.
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Transcript
Chapter 1: Introduction
0:1111 secondsgood afternoon everyone my name is michael spath executive director of the indiana center for middle east peace in fort wayne indiana
0:1919 secondswe're a voice of conscience for peace justice human rights and intercultural encounter i'm also a member of the palestine
0:2727 secondsisrael network of the united church of christ and a member of the global kairos for justice coalition
0:3535 secondswe're delighted today to speak with adafna levitt self-described subversive peacenik
0:4343 secondsan author of among others wrestling with zionism jewish voices of descent
0:5353 secondswhich i enjoyed the daphne reading very much well while it's an overview i mean i i you know i've written a little bit but
1:001 minutei really have appreciated what you wrote because while it's an overview you provide enough detail of more than 20
1:071 minute, 7 secondsuh dissenting jewish voices to give us a real window into their lives and their minds and of course each one's going to
1:161 minute, 16 secondsdeserve much more time than we'll give them today but what we'll do this afternoon daphne is to take a brief tour
1:231 minute, 23 secondsof some of these dissenting jewish voices so so welcome and and tell us how are you doing during the pandemic
1:311 minute, 31 secondsare you remaining well yeah i think i'm still normal i think i'm managing
1:381 minute, 38 secondsand in nova scotia how are things there yeah nova scotia has been very proud of itself because i think
1:441 minute, 44 secondslast week we maybe had one case um so we're not exactly you know right in the
1:521 minute, 52 secondsin the worst of it we we've been doing really well in fact um there was supposed to be a whole bunch of vaccines coming our way
2:012 minutes, 1 secondbut they were shipped out of nova scotia to the north where people are struck north in canada where people
2:092 minutes, 9 secondsare struggling more so i haven't been anywhere near anywhere or anyone who is giving vaccines so i'm not sure
2:182 minutes, 18 secondsif i will ever get them but by the time they distribute it i will certainly be of that age
2:262 minutes, 26 secondswell just by way of introduction let's just jump right on in just by way of introduction you had quite an interesting route to your activism
2:342 minutes, 34 secondsfrom israel and military service to international financial institutions merrill lynch morgan stanley
2:432 minutes, 43 secondswall street to work with but sellum icad gush shalom maxim watch and others so tell us a little bit about your
2:512 minutes, 51 secondsawakening and your journey to activism so i think that um in my book
Chapter 3: Israel
2:592 minutes, 59 secondsif if you've read it i i talk a little bit about the fact that in israel when you grow up you um i grew up in a very
3:073 minutes, 7 secondssecular country the country that had very little to do with religion and the religion that we
3:153 minutes, 15 secondshad was zionism and we believed that our god was israel and that we should be willing to sacrifice our lives for
3:233 minutes, 23 secondsthat religion patriotism and our god and i think it took um a lot of time before my mind was
3:323 minutes, 32 secondsable to sort out that there was something that wasn't quite right about this um theology and when i was a soldier
3:423 minutes, 42 secondsi'll date myself i was a soldier during the six day war and um i was a press liaison officer and i stood on allen b
3:503 minutes, 50 secondsbridge and i watched palestinian refugees fleeing and i kept thinking there's something wrong here because we're the good guys
3:593 minutes, 59 secondswhy are they fleeing and after a lot of reading and a lot of conversations
4:064 minutes, 6 secondsa lot of dialogue i came to the conclusion that maybe there is something wrong about the zionist mythology
4:144 minutes, 14 secondsthat was the beginning i guess of my journey you know let's i want to jump right on
4:224 minutes, 22 secondsin then let's just get right into the meat of your book uh at the very beginning i thought it was an interesting pairing in your second chapter
4:304 minutes, 30 secondsyou pair martin buber and albert einstein the scholar of hisidic mysticism and the internationally acclaimed
4:384 minutes, 38 secondsuh scientist and at the end of the chapter you talk about why you paired these two can you tell us a little bit about that
4:464 minutes, 46 secondsyou know i forgot but let me go look at that book i think that i think that the
Chapter 4: JewishZionism
4:524 minutes, 52 secondsthe the reason that um i paired them was what i was trying to do in this book was to show
5:005 minutesthat the descent from zionism the history of descent from zionism covers an incredibly broad spectrum and that
5:095 minutes, 9 secondspeople who wrote or thought about this problem were not monolithic they came from entirely different points of view
5:185 minutes, 18 secondsperspectives places in the world now zionism was really an um
5:255 minutes, 25 secondsa west european construct in the jewish zionism i also talk a little bit about christian zionism but
5:335 minutes, 33 secondsjewish zionism which is the derivatives really came from from from west um
5:395 minutes, 39 secondsa western european construct and albert einstein came from a secular western european background
5:475 minutes, 47 secondsmartin buber came from east european and there is an enormous divide in the history of european judaism between
5:555 minutes, 55 secondseast and western european jewry where the jews of the east the jews of russia and poland and
6:046 minutes, 4 secondssome of the other countries were not as readily willing to either assimilate or to abandon
6:136 minutes, 13 secondstheir their sort of diasporic lifestyle boober came from that and yet the two of
6:206 minutes, 20 secondsthem who were i think born maybe a year apart representing completely different um
6:266 minutes, 26 secondsbackgrounds and and and life's lot lifestyles works uh came to very
6:346 minutes, 34 secondssimilar compute conclusions uber came to um israel with the idea of creating not necessarily a
6:426 minutes, 42 secondspolitical entity but a spiritual entity that israel would be zionism born in the soul that it would
6:506 minutes, 50 secondsbe a jewish concept it would be not the secular militant nation that it has evolved into and einstein came to it
6:596 minutes, 59 secondsreally because he himself was an incredibly strong believer in pacifism
7:077 minutes, 7 secondsand um the the abolishment of any military military militarism in the world
7:147 minutes, 14 secondsso they come to it from very different perspectives but they reach the same conclusion that's what's wrong with israel and what's going to be the problem for
7:237 minutes, 23 secondsisrael in the future is going to be this incredible um turn towards
7:297 minutes, 29 secondsa political identity which basically involves a very strong army
7:367 minutes, 36 secondsum and israel has been declared a country an army with a country rather than a country with an army
7:437 minutes, 43 secondsso i that's why i kind of drew the two of them together there are other pairings that i could have done but that to me was very striking that
7:527 minutes, 52 secondsthe two of them one very secular and one buber who was very involved in the hasidic movement if you're not
8:018 minutes, 1 secondjewish you might not know what that is but that i suppose is identified with jewish mysticism yeah you know it was interesting just a
8:098 minutes, 9 secondslittle anecdote uh that you included about um uh einstein when uh
8:168 minutes, 16 secondspresident uh heim weitzman died in 1952 uh he turned down the offer to become einstein did to become israel's
8:258 minutes, 25 secondsuh president his second president and he mentions to his stepdaughter margot if i were to be president
8:338 minutes, 33 secondssometime i would have to say to the israeli people things they would not like to hear yeah
8:408 minutes, 40 secondsyeah yeah for sure uh one one of the lesser known uh at least to me figures you discussed
8:478 minutes, 47 secondswas the scholar and doctor yeshua yahoo leibowitz a secular zionist who saw the uh the dangers of mixing
8:568 minutes, 56 secondsreligion and state and and you write he was among the first jewish intellectuals distressed that the holocaust had
9:049 minutes, 4 secondsto a large extent become the new jewish religion and then the reason i the reason i was drawn to ask you
9:129 minutes, 12 secondsuh was that a couple uh uh paragraphs later you mentioned our our buddy mark ellis and that this new
9:209 minutes, 20 secondsreligion places the jewish people rather than god at its center so uh you want to say a few more words about him
9:299 minutes, 29 secondsyeah i hate to correct you forgive me but he was never never secular he was a very orthodox church
9:379 minutes, 37 secondsokay okay um and um is considered among the most popular
9:449 minutes, 44 secondsi suppose leaders of israel to this day even though most people uh you know in their 40s and younger
9:529 minutes, 52 secondsprobably aren't the as familiar with him yeah he he he you can find him if you speak hebrew
10:0010 minutesyou can find his teachings on youtube where he gives lectures he was enormously charismatic
10:0910 minutes, 9 secondshis his people were drawn to his classes and he wrote a lot about um about the
10:1710 minutes, 17 secondsabuse of religion um in the jewish mythology in the zionist mythology because for him
10:2610 minutes, 26 secondslike for buber but even slightly differently for ishaya zionism was important and in
10:3410 minutes, 34 secondsthe beginning of his career he wanted to make sure that rabbis understood the significance
10:4210 minutes, 42 secondsof the zionist state that israel needed to exist but eventually what he became
10:5010 minutes, 50 secondsvery um upset about was the fact that people were using um the the zionist
10:5710 minutes, 57 secondsmythology they were using the bible as their geography book and that was a diminishment
11:0411 minutes, 4 secondsof the holiness of the of the scripture for him that you don't question excuse me you don't question god you accept him
11:1211 minutes, 12 secondsentirely and that basically being a jew was work he was very upset at things like laws
11:2111 minutes, 21 secondsthat were enacted by politicians to preserve as a small example i write about it in the book to preserve the sabbath if you've been
11:3011 minutes, 30 secondsto israel you would know that in israel the sabbath means there's no public transport that's just one example
11:3711 minutes, 37 secondsthere's no no public transport on the high holidays these were legislated by the government
11:4511 minutes, 45 secondsand he objected to the fact that the government would legislate something that should be part of a jewish consciousness
11:5311 minutes, 53 secondswhy is the government intervening in decisions like that um i totally if if there's one person in
12:0012 minutesthis book who is my favorite it would be him ah yeah he's an amazing man an amazing thinker um
12:0912 minutes, 9 secondsi don't know if i brought him um to life as much as i should and really if if there's one there may be two here
12:1812 minutes, 18 secondsthat i think hebrew is essential to he actually approached them he would be one well that's your
12:2612 minutes, 26 secondsnext book after your book on hannah arendt i'm not gonna attempt a book on hannah aaron there are too many
12:3412 minutes, 34 secondspeople better equipped for that this is a common thread uh that runs
12:4212 minutes, 42 secondsthrough many of your dissenting voices the criticism of israel exceptionalism which is similar to what we
12:5012 minutes, 50 secondsexperience in our country american exceptionalism and this is especially true of gnomes nom chomsky
12:5712 minutes, 57 secondsamerican exceptionalism as manifest destiny uh is is biblical is the
13:0513 minutes, 5 secondsbiblical great commission shorn of its religious content and israel exceptionalism as zionism
13:1313 minutes, 13 secondsis the biblical promised land and the light to the nations shorn of its religious content talk about
13:2113 minutes, 21 secondszionism as a secular religion a little bit more than you already have and especially chomsky's critique
13:2813 minutes, 28 secondswell chomsky's been critical a lot for a lot of different things about israel but let me start with the fact that
Chapter 5: Secularism
13:3613 minutes, 36 secondsthe zionist movement started with um secular thinkers in in western europe who
13:4613 minutes, 46 secondssuccumbed to the zeitgeist of the time that was seeking
13:5313 minutes, 53 secondsnational identity it was a very strong movement we wanted to be nations
13:5913 minutes, 59 secondsand this was at the end of the 19th century the jews who had always lived among others
14:0814 minutes, 8 secondsin order to live among others made several choices and one of the choices that predominated in western
14:1514 minutes, 15 secondseurope was to assimilate that assimilation meant that they spoke the language of the culture that they lived in
14:2314 minutes, 23 secondsthey learned in the schools of the country culture that they lived in and kept their jewish identity for the
14:3114 minutes, 31 secondsprivate domain of their houses the jews of eastern europe stayed jewish in appearance
14:3914 minutes, 39 secondsthey kept living a lifestyle that distinguished them you could see what a jew looked like you could go to a jewish community where
14:4814 minutes, 48 secondsyou couldn't do that in germany the german jews had assimilated it seems interesting that the most violent measures against
14:5814 minutes, 58 secondsthe jews were taken in the country where the jews had assimilated the best um in germany
15:0815 minutes, 8 secondsbut um but to say a little bit more about this so so the secular movement that was zionism
15:1415 minutes, 14 secondswas the movement in which i grew up there was nothing religious about my upbringing i could barely i really barely knew the
15:2315 minutes, 23 secondsbible i had to study it for classes but for you you learn the bible in elementary school you learn the bible in high school
15:3115 minutes, 31 secondsbut it's it's a required reading yeah but but it was not part of my
15:4215 minutes, 42 secondsit wasn't anything to do with what i believed or thought or or or understood um but
15:5015 minutes, 50 secondsover time israel has become to some extent more what is it reliant on
15:5815 minutes, 58 secondsthe religion of judaism and the experience of the holocaust
16:0516 minutes, 5 secondsto justify its contin continued existence and to justify
16:1216 minutes, 12 secondswhat it can um do to people who have lived there for generations
16:1916 minutes, 19 secondsthat are not identified as jews and this i suppose is my own personal
16:2716 minutes, 27 secondsfeeling of incredible guilt yeah now i you know even as you this is just a
16:3516 minutes, 35 secondspersonal comment daphna but even as i was reading your chapters as you were describing others you could see you had a way of of of
16:4516 minutes, 45 secondsweaving your heart throughout each one of the chapters and your own kind of story uh as it was evolving so
16:5416 minutes, 54 secondsthat's another thing i appreciated about your book two other critiques from chomsky that you mentioned
17:0117 minutes, 1 secondnumber one states do not have a right to exist i mean that's clear right and anybody who knows anything about chomsky
17:0817 minutes, 8 secondsuh his critique of israel knows that uh that he says it very clearly and the other one
17:1517 minutes, 15 secondsisrael and the united states he includes both view the palestinians in strictly utilitarian terms
17:2217 minutes, 22 secondshow useful they are to the west so here's chomsky on that there seems to be no room in israel for those who try
17:2917 minutes, 29 secondsto square a universalist point of view be it liberal or socialist with the racist definition of zionism
17:3717 minutes, 37 secondsso you can pick one or both of those but uh yeah it just dawned on me that i totally ignored your earlier reference to john skips
Chapter 6: A different thought stream
17:4617 minutes, 46 secondsthat's okay carried away by something else a different thought stream so if if you read the chomsky reader
17:5417 minutes, 54 secondswhich is sort of his own autobiographical sort of narrative
18:0118 minutes, 1 secondhe says that he too had been i kind of identify with chomsky
18:0818 minutes, 8 secondshe too had been a zionist an incredibly a secular zionist but a zionist
18:1618 minutes, 16 secondsum and he went to israel to live on a kibbutz and when he was out of kibbutz one thing that struck him was that
18:2318 minutes, 23 secondsno arab was ever accepted as a member of the kibbutz and that only jews even if arabs came to
18:3118 minutes, 31 secondswork at the kibbutz they were not accepted as members of the kibbutz and that really struck him he felt that there was
18:3918 minutes, 39 secondsan inability to sort of expand the idea of
18:4618 minutes, 46 secondsbrotherhood and community to the other that really struck chomsky and then he
18:5318 minutes, 53 secondslater writes a lot with another person who is in this book ilan pape he wrote several books together
19:0119 minutes, 1 secondwith ilan pape which then sort of castigate america's role in perpetuating the israeli miss
19:1019 minutes, 10 secondsin perpetuating the myth of israel it started out perhaps as a political ally
19:1719 minutes, 17 secondsto the united states because it needed an ally in this part of the world which was
19:2419 minutes, 24 secondsburning which was uh you know a difficult part of the world to understand and it felt that through israel
19:3219 minutes, 32 secondsit could maintain some degree of control this is chomsky's orientation obviously being an american and being critical of
19:4019 minutes, 40 secondsamerican foreign policy but he's scathing about bibi netanyahu's idea that people have to um that the arabs or
19:4919 minutes, 49 secondsthe palestinians have to acknowledge that israel is a jewish state so for me and i go into this in the book
19:5719 minutes, 57 secondsthe whole idea of a jewish state means that you can't have it both ways are you a democracy or are you a jewish state
20:0520 minutes, 5 secondsyou know you can't be both if you're a jewish state you are excluding other people who live there
20:1220 minutes, 12 secondsand who have lived there for a long time to recognize israel as a jewish state means that all those people
20:1920 minutes, 19 secondsand there are millions are no longer valid citizens of that state
20:2620 minutes, 26 secondsyou know it's a wonderful segue uh to your chapter on uri of neri uh you quote one of his well-known
20:3520 minutes, 35 secondsstories uh when god despairs and and you know many of us in the in in the activist movement
20:4220 minutes, 42 secondsuse this analogy or use this sort of parable but i didn't know where it came from and so i really appreciated that and i'm just going to quote
20:5020 minutes, 50 secondsuh the the story as you quoted in the book right after the foundation of israel god appeared to david ben-gurion and told
20:5920 minutes, 59 secondshim you have done good by my people utter a wish and i shall grant it i wish that israel shall be jewish
21:0721 minutes, 7 secondsdemocratic and encompass all the country between the mediterranean and the jordan and god exclaimed that is too much even
21:1621 minutes, 16 secondsfor me i'll grant you two of the three uh uh so it was a wonderful segue from chomsky to this but
21:2421 minutes, 24 secondslike i said i didn't know where this story had come from say a little bit more about if neri and maybe this story so ulev nelly is a friend of mine was
Chapter 7: Uri Neui
21:3321 minutes, 33 secondsoh um yeah and hopefully um uh i was i was going to show you a picture of julian
21:4121 minutes, 41 secondsof mary and me but i can't find it so never mind i wasn't there's a picture of me and
21:4921 minutes, 49 secondsme wearing um our gush shalom which is always of mary's parties it means peace block
21:5621 minutes, 56 secondst-shirt and signs that said no settler is my brother and by that we were referring to the
22:0622 minutes, 6 secondssettlers who came to basically take land and annex um
22:1522 minutes, 15 secondswhatever property that the government would let them get away with and more and more of that is happening leonardi was a
22:2222 minutes, 22 secondsill-goon member which means he was an extreme right-wing militant when he came to israel from germany
22:3122 minutes, 31 secondsand over time he too transformed it's very difficult when you were so convinced
22:4022 minutes, 40 secondsof the righteousness of your um ideology to then suddenly um teach yourself that
22:4722 minutes, 47 secondsthere are things wrong with that um ideology um but he did and he is a self uh he's an autodidact
22:5722 minutes, 57 secondshe never actually studied anywhere his wealth of of literary
23:0323 minutes, 3 secondsknowledge and his hebrew were beyond compare he he writes hebrew
23:1023 minutes, 10 secondsit flows out of his fingers it's just beautiful and funny and eloquent
23:1823 minutes, 18 secondsum for a long time when i was a member of shalom in israel i was one of his translators not the only one
23:2523 minutes, 25 secondsbut a lot of his articles i actually translated and i think that his his
23:3223 minutes, 32 secondsdelightful writing is is works in english too um he founded um
23:4023 minutes, 40 secondshe went to demonstrations he organized various conferences
23:4723 minutes, 47 secondshe was very active and um and i'm still devastated by his death
23:5423 minutes, 54 secondssure no no for sure you are a close associate i mean friends i mean you were you were close to the
24:0224 minutes, 2 secondstwo of you well i was close to uh nelly and his wife who proceed pre pre-deceased him but
24:1124 minutes, 11 secondsyeah we were very close we attended various um um um events
24:1824 minutes, 18 secondsum we we i have tons of photographs of uria neri because
24:2524 minutes, 25 secondsrachel was a photographer so there are lots of photographs of of ubi and and other ones
24:3324 minutes, 33 secondsof you know that group i i don't want to get any further into this conversation
24:3924 minutes, 39 secondsuh without giving you a chance uh us together to talk about hannah arendt uh before before we came on uh today
24:4924 minutes, 49 secondsi you know you you were telling me about how you're offering this kind of a adult continuing studies class about hannah irons and i said
24:5624 minutes, 56 secondsit's a real shame that she is so irrelevant to what's happening in the world today and we both had a laugh about that uh
25:0425 minutes, 4 secondsso you've been we talked about uh hannah arndt being both prescient and prophetic about the rise of totalitarianism in the
25:1325 minutes, 13 secondswest talk to us a little bit more about what draws you to her and why why she just remains so
25:2225 minutes, 22 secondsrelevant uh in our day i think that she's unique in the way that she
Chapter 8: Hanna Aron
25:3025 minutes, 30 secondsapproached the world and i think that the world has been looking for someone who thinks through the human
25:3825 minutes, 38 secondscondition how it is that humanity has been capable of such incredible beauty and at
25:4525 minutes, 45 secondsthe same time of such incredible evil and she's thinking about it in a different way she
25:5125 minutes, 51 secondscreated a a a lifetime of of of works of thinking
25:5825 minutes, 58 secondsabout these issues my own experience with hannah aaron and her appearance in in in this book
26:0626 minutes, 6 secondsis through obviously um eichmann in jerusalem the banality of
26:1326 minutes, 13 secondsevil um i keep telling people this and it's gonna be i think on my tombstone my sister was a stenographer
26:2126 minutes, 21 secondsat the trial and so every time this is this is my personal contact to that's the closest i'll ever be to
26:2926 minutes, 29 secondshannah aaron but um yeah i think that in the in the what is it in the
26:3726 minutes, 37 secondsostracizing of hannah aaron by israel in the fact that none of her works were ever translated into hebrew until
26:4626 minutes, 46 secondsmaybe a decade after her death in the fact that she said one of the most prophetic things
26:5426 minutes, 54 secondswhich is a country that my neighbor does not consider a home will never be a home in other words she
27:0327 minutes, 3 secondswas very upset with the fact that israel was becoming increasingly militant
27:1127 minutes, 11 secondsand that the trial of eichmann was done primarily as a show to justify zionism
27:1927 minutes, 19 secondsit was intended by ben gurion and she quotes a conversation with ben gurion in which
27:2627 minutes, 26 secondsthe whole purpose of this trial was really not to judge whether ahman were guilty or innocent because
27:3427 minutes, 34 secondsit's clear that he was guilty exactly what he was guilty of is the controversy but he was guilty
27:4127 minutes, 41 secondsand she didn't even object to the death penalty because she felt that a man who committed such crimes really didn't
27:4927 minutes, 49 secondsbelong to humanity and it was good that he was executed but
27:5727 minutes, 57 secondsshe was ostracized because she dared to say that eichmann was not a monster and that eichmann was not responsible for the
28:0628 minutes, 6 secondsentire disaster that occurred during the holocaust and that even jews who were
28:1428 minutes, 14 secondswhat she calls worldless not wordless but worldless had some
28:2128 minutes, 21 secondsum responsibility for what happened the idea that the jews had any responsibility for
28:2928 minutes, 29 secondswhat happened to them um so completely infuriated the jewish community and still does to this day
28:3728 minutes, 37 secondsthat they didn't actually think what it is that she was exploring here which was much beyond
28:4428 minutes, 44 secondswhether or not um the the jews had a right to a state and whether or not the nazis were
28:5328 minutes, 53 secondshorrible she wrote an entire book preceding this because the origins of totalitarianism came out in the 1950s and the eichmann
29:0129 minutes, 1 secondbook was in 1963 so right even before that she had concentrated very much on the horrors of totalitarian
29:1129 minutes, 11 secondsregimes but she was analyzing them as a philosopher which she later didn't want to be
29:1829 minutes, 18 secondsanymore but that's okay damn those philosophers right
29:2729 minutes, 27 secondsone of my favorite quotes i want to stay with hannah aaron just for a minute one one of the quotes that i have used uh often and uh and it's
29:3529 minutes, 35 secondsso applicable and relevant for today it's just a few sentences so let me quote it and i'd like your reaction
29:4229 minutes, 42 secondsespecially about our present time in our country and even in other places in europe mass propaganda discovered that its
29:5129 minutes, 51 secondsaudience was ready at all times to believe the worst no matter how absurd and did not particularly object to being deceived
30:0030 minutesbecause it held every statement to be a lie anyhow the totalian the totalitarian mass leaders
30:0730 minutes, 7 secondsbased their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that under such conditions
30:1430 minutes, 14 secondsone could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day and trust that if the next day they were given irrefutable
30:2330 minutes, 23 secondsproof of their falsehood they'd take refuge in a cynical belief that there was no such thing as truth
30:3030 minutes, 30 secondsinstead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them and then here's the punchline the result of a consistent
30:3730 minutes, 37 secondsand total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth
30:4630 minutes, 46 secondsbut that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world the category of truth itself is being
30:5330 minutes, 53 secondsdestroyed there is it's not that people believe the lie it's just that they stop believing that there is a truth
31:0231 minutes, 2 secondsright i mean that's that's and that's what we've seen in our country or you know and other places as well please
31:0931 minutes, 9 secondsreact if you'd like so one of the things that you know keep this is personal i don't know if any of
31:1731 minutes, 17 secondsyou shared this experience except for what's his name the guy the germ the austrian governor schwarzenegger shared that experience
31:2531 minutes, 25 secondswhen i watched the january 6th storming um of your capital um i had the same
31:3331 minutes, 33 secondsreaction that schwarzenegger had it was a kind of a violent hit to my stomach it looked like
31:4131 minutes, 41 secondscristalnacht and i don't know if you saw but schwarzenegger did a little youtube video about how it reminded him
31:4931 minutes, 49 secondsof cristalnacht and that is the swarming of a mob out of control against a symbol
31:5631 minutes, 56 secondsof something that they were going to demolish that they didn't have to think about but that was what they wanted to demolish
32:0432 minutes, 4 secondsand in her analysis of totalitarian regime or even before that
32:1132 minutes, 11 secondseven without getting to the point of a totalitarian regime she talks about ideologies
32:1832 minutes, 18 secondsand that ideologies sometimes will replace the need for thinking because you don't need
32:2532 minutes, 25 secondsany other explanation you have your ideology to live with you don't have to reflect on it so
32:3332 minutes, 33 secondsin a sense people who have been um what is it brainwashed and and i feel that because
32:4032 minutes, 40 secondsi was brainwashed as a zionist i really resent that i spent many years being brainwashed but people who are brainwashed
32:4832 minutes, 48 secondsinto an ideology feel that it has all the answers and that there is no need to question
32:5532 minutes, 55 secondsanything anymore so if you don't need to question why do you need to think
33:0333 minutes, 3 secondsand that's what i saw on i don't know if the rest of you feel that that was an exaggerated reaction but that's how i felt on january
33:1133 minutes, 11 seconds6th it was it i i stayed sick for three days and there are people here on this call who can attest to that
33:2233 minutes, 22 secondsi have a question from one of our friends uh online here uh pastor fahed abu ako um
33:3033 minutes, 30 secondsan activist palestinian minister from atlanta how do you explain u.s jews stand on israel they've been leaders in the civil
33:3833 minutes, 38 secondsrights black and human rights for all but when it comes to israel most of them are quiet at best right and even
33:4633 minutes, 46 secondsantagonistic about palestinian rights so i feel that one of the reasons that say chomsky
Chapter 9: Israel as a political ally
33:5433 minutes, 54 secondsand other american jewish writers have have commented on the u.s stance on
34:0234 minutes, 2 secondsisrael as a political ally the reason israel was a political ally changed over time but it remained
34:1134 minutes, 11 secondsan ally it also remained a voting bloc and many of the political leaders
34:1934 minutes, 19 secondshave perceived the jewish community as monolithic and if they are monolithic it means that
34:2634 minutes, 26 secondswe will take the ipac or whatever the jewish defense league or whatever that position is
34:3334 minutes, 33 secondswhich seems to be the loudest and we will support that i think that that's changing i'm hoping that
34:4234 minutes, 42 secondsthat's changing i think that there are other jews i have encountered them who are thinking differently and who eventually will take a stand
34:5134 minutes, 51 secondsagainst israel's policies because how can you study how can you even read
34:5834 minutes, 58 secondssome of the reports from gaza and from other places that israel has occupied in the west bank
35:0635 minutes, 6 secondsand the treatment of palestinians as a human being without eventually questioning how we can support that so
35:1635 minutes, 16 secondsyes i think the jews have been puzzled because for so long they have accepted the zionist
35:2235 minutes, 22 secondsmyth and i know that i myself have aggravated many jews by opening my mouth i've given lectures where people will
35:3135 minutes, 31 secondscome and scream traitor treasonous things at me i've had things thrown at me so i know that you know
35:4035 minutes, 40 secondswhat i'm saying here you know i still get emails from why are you why are you besmirching our country
35:4735 minutes, 47 secondswhy are you saying these horrible things about us and that's maybe you know a a point of view that's really hard
35:5635 minutes, 56 secondsfor them to relinquish but it's also hard for me as a thinking human being to relinquish my position
36:0436 minutes, 4 secondsso i'm hoping that people will if we if we write if we if we publish publish
36:1136 minutes, 11 secondsif we talk about what's going on especially in gaza how can that happen
36:1836 minutes, 18 secondshow can we have a prison of so many people with absolutely zero right to freedom that's just not tolerable
36:2636 minutes, 26 secondsthe whole uh the numerous attacks on gaza in the last 15 years
36:3436 minutes, 34 secondsparticularly have moved a number of jews like yourself uh uh
36:4236 minutes, 42 secondsto become uh activists uh we we know a rabbi brant rosen for example and others in this country other friends
36:5036 minutes, 50 secondsfor whom that's been the case you know um the this was worth the price of the book uh uh
36:5736 minutes, 57 secondsin and of itself to be honest with you i i didn't know that history was such a blood sport although i should have uh we could we could spend a day or two talking
37:0537 minutes, 5 secondsabout the new historians right uh uh can i just say one thing about gaza sure please just just quickly um because
Chapter 10: Operation Cast Lead
37:1437 minutes, 14 secondsyou just led me into this uh some of you might remember operation cast lead which occurred
37:2237 minutes, 22 secondsin 2008 it was a massive 22 day
37:2937 minutes, 29 secondsmilitary assault on the gaza strip so many people were killed among them one thousand
37:3737 minutes, 37 secondsfour hundred palestinians right and countless others were injured that is why
37:4437 minutes, 44 secondsuh when i was already safe and sconced in nova scotia away from the madness i decided that i had to
37:5337 minutes, 53 secondswrite this book which was the book that preceded it's called israeli rejectionism i co-wrote it
38:0038 minutesit's a document of how israel has consistently for the past 80 years rejected every
38:0738 minutes, 7 secondsopportunity that it was given for peace and if there are people here who are pro-israel i'm so glad that on the zoom you can't
38:1538 minutes, 15 secondsthrow tomatoes at me well thank you for picking up uh
38:2338 minutes, 23 secondsoperation cast lead and for just raising that again to our attention that was really what uh uh pushed brant rosen over the edge to become really
38:3238 minutes, 32 secondsmuch more of an activist rabbi rosen and many others in this country who had been who had been activists who had been sensitive to
38:4038 minutes, 40 secondsuh uh dissenting from zionism but really then what animated their
38:4838 minutes, 48 secondsactivism in a very strong way so thank you for that so talking about the new historians uh
38:5638 minutes, 56 secondsuh benny morris right uh his shocking justification for ethnic cleansing he says when when you know what when the
39:0439 minutes, 4 secondsother choice is the annihilation of your people you have to choose ethnic cleansing i mean wow
39:1139 minutes, 11 secondsand and the justifiable attacks on his racist and politicized scholarship by
39:1839 minutes, 18 secondsavi schleim elan pape gideon levy i mean you document all this uh in your book and then you leave us
39:2639 minutes, 26 secondswith morris's conclusion this place will decline i mean this even this even shows right his uh
39:3439 minutes, 34 secondshis uh uh racism this place will decline like a middle eastern state with an error majority
39:4039 minutes, 40 secondsif in fact peace breaks out right the violence between the different populations within the state will increase
39:4839 minutes, 48 secondsthe arabs will demand the return of refugees the jews will remain a small minority within a large arab sea of palestinians
39:5639 minutes, 56 secondsa persecuted or slaughtered minority as they were when they lived in arab countries those among the jews who can will flee
40:0340 minutes, 3 secondsto america and the west you know for many benny morse's early early work was so good
40:1140 minutes, 11 secondsand then but the conclusion i mean he he made this sort of i don't know if it was a shift or an evolution or if it was just always there but
40:2040 minutes, 20 secondsit was really astounding and these other historians really called him out on it yeah he was a mystery to us all and the
40:2840 minutes, 28 secondspublisher of wrestling with zionism is a palestinian um i hope you all support interlink books because he's an amazing
40:3740 minutes, 37 secondsperson musician scholar but anyway he and the the
40:4440 minutes, 44 secondseditor who i worked with were upset that i said so much about benny morris why couldn't i just leave him out
40:5240 minutes, 52 secondsleave him out of the section but he was really crucial because he did start out
40:5940 minutes, 59 secondswith such an incredible amount of research on the subject and such a great deal of um of enthusiasm and the fact that he
41:0741 minutes, 7 secondslater becomes i don't know what happened to him but he succumbs to to to the myth
41:1541 minutes, 15 secondsto the zionist myth and i don't get it but he needed to be there well uh
41:2241 minutes, 22 secondswhat what's really important is the way you you document like i said avi schleim's critique of
41:2841 minutes, 28 secondsmorris elon papes and then you skip a few chapters and then gideon levy at levy at the end
41:3641 minutes, 36 secondsuh uh his criticism of him as well so let let me uh uh let me ask you what we'll get to uh elon
41:4441 minutes, 44 secondsand uh gideon in a second but let me ask you issues of jewish identity
41:5141 minutes, 51 secondsrun throughout your book daphna and as a non-jew i want to ask you about this with some sensitivity
42:0042 minutesbut it appears to me that zionists define jewish identity in whatever way suits their argument at the time
42:0842 minutes, 8 secondsso sometimes their jewishness is a cultural identity sometimes it's an ethnic identity sometimes it's
42:1642 minutes, 16 secondsused as a religious identity depending on their audience you know uh for example if they're talking to christian zionists
42:2242 minutes, 22 secondsum do you know what i guess there's a question in there somewhere but this the question i have to you is are
42:3042 minutes, 30 secondsyou talking about one jew an individual jew or are you talking about the various jews that you encounter because i think
42:3842 minutes, 38 secondsthat i have always been a secular jew or i would define myself as an atheist others define me as a jew i i
42:4642 minutes, 46 secondsdon't care it's fine historically that's what i am well i was talking about how zionists
42:5242 minutes, 52 secondsdefinitely when yeah find their judaism and sometimes it morphs depending on the audience you know right
42:5942 minutes, 59 secondsbut other people who will consider themselves zionists will
43:0743 minutes, 7 secondsusually in say uh i don't know over the majority of israeli
43:1443 minutes, 14 secondswould would consider themselves secular zionists we have a new phenomena and interestingly enough
43:2243 minutes, 22 secondsi would i don't have an empirical number for you but i would venture to say that a large majority of them come from the united states because they
43:3143 minutes, 31 secondsspeak english with boston or brooklyn accents and they define themselves
43:4043 minutes, 40 secondsas jewish and they are the ones who believe that the jews have a right to that land
43:4843 minutes, 48 secondsand they are the ones who basically are creating an awful lot of trouble today because bibi netanyahu
43:5743 minutes, 57 secondsneeds them and has given them more and more of a prominent role in determining
44:0444 minutes, 4 secondsisraeli policy which is scary because they are the ones who want to annex they want they are looking for the greater
44:1344 minutes, 13 secondsisrael that particularly extreme right nationalistic um ambition
44:2144 minutes, 21 secondsof the early extremely secular zionists so the fact that you are confused makes a lot of sense
44:3044 minutes, 30 seconds[Laughter]
44:3244 minutes, 32 secondswell thanks thanks for that affirmation uh we had the pleasure of interviewing elon pape last october and he's promised to
44:4044 minutes, 40 secondscome to fort wayne uh once the travel restrictions are lifted because then i come together with him i want to be there
44:4944 minutes, 49 secondsi know elon from israel wonderful wonderful his ethnic cleansing of palestine is required reading of course in the
44:5744 minutes, 57 secondsin the activist community and he he told me his the forgotten palestinians was very emotional for him as he wrote it
45:0545 minutes, 5 secondsbecause it was talking about many of his friends uh uh palestinian 48 uh who uh
45:1145 minutes, 11 secondshe uh are his friends but let's focus on on one of his talks which you quote from the title of which is all you need to
45:1945 minutes, 19 secondsknow about his analysis viewing israel-palestine through the lens of settler colonialism it really marks a
45:2745 minutes, 27 secondsprogression for many in the activist community over the last decade or more right from occupation
45:3445 minutes, 34 secondsi mean we had to move from conflict to occupation and now we're moving from occupation to settler colonialism
45:4245 minutes, 42 secondsright i mean as an analysis uh so say more about that i'm not sure what to say i mean what
Chapter 11: Hope for Israel
45:5045 minutes, 50 secondsyou're saying is absolutely true you know we have this uh you know settler colonialist
45:5945 minutes, 59 secondsa stream within israel that is to me probably the most terrifying
46:0546 minutes, 5 secondsand the most damaging politically for the if there is a future for israel i have to say that in my first book in
46:1446 minutes, 14 secondsisraeli rejectionism i was very despondent and concluded that there is really no hope for israel
46:2146 minutes, 21 secondsmaybe i now feel that there could be some hope for israel because of so many activist groups within israel and outside of israel
46:3046 minutes, 30 secondsone of the groups outside of israel in the united states that gives me hope is black lives matter about which i wrote an article for a
46:3846 minutes, 38 secondsmagazine called rabble i don't know if you get that in the states it's an online magazine but a lot of
46:4546 minutes, 45 secondsgroups within israel who are young people who refuse to serve who refuse to be colonialists i don't know if that
46:5446 minutes, 54 secondsanswers your question well uh thank you for that you know um we've got a number of questions here and it kind of leads to my next question
47:0447 minutes, 4 secondsum in a couple of weeks i'm going to mention this later we're going to be interviewing jeff halper and a palestinian
47:1347 minutes, 13 secondspolitical scientist together elon poppe along with jeff are part of the one democratic state campaign
47:2147 minutes, 21 secondswith number of palestinian israelis uh tell us a little bit about your view of the one democratic state not not just
47:2947 minutes, 29 secondsmaybe that narrow one but one state i mean we're beyond the two states right we're now moving toward a one state or a
47:3547 minutes, 35 secondsconfederation of some kind talk to us a little bit about your view of the one state so there's what you want and then
Chapter 12: One State
47:4447 minutes, 44 secondsthere's what there is and what there is is a one state what there isn't is democracy i don't think it's
47:5247 minutes, 52 secondspossible at this point for um the sort of utopian two-state solution
47:5947 minutes, 59 secondsto occur because israel has control of the purse strings it has
48:0648 minutes, 6 secondsall the institutions that make it possible to run a country the palestinians have not been given any
48:1548 minutes, 15 secondsopportunity to do that so i think that what is is a one state what has to happen is for that one state
48:2448 minutes, 24 secondsto acknowledge that that is the only way forward and that one state has to be democratic and has to grant
48:3248 minutes, 32 secondsequal rights to everyone living within it i know that that's an aspiration that the united states has not yet achieved
48:3948 minutes, 39 secondsalso but i'm hoping that israel can do that at some point because
48:4648 minutes, 46 secondsit's ridiculous the way that you have within this tiny tiny country which is smaller than nova scotia the
48:5648 minutes, 56 secondssmallest province in canada which is where i live this tiny tiny country has byways and highways
49:0349 minutes, 3 secondswith checkpoints and roads in which palestinians and roads it's monstrous it's a monstrous
49:1249 minutes, 12 secondscreation came out of some sort of evil demonic mind it has to be a one
49:1949 minutes, 19 secondsstate with equal rights how we get there help yeah yeah yeah i can just write
49:2849 minutes, 28 secondsabout what is um you know uh tear you met terry before
49:3649 minutes, 36 secondsterry dougherty uh ryan he's the one hiding behind the indiana center for middle east peace right right and uh uh ron caldwell and i
49:4549 minutes, 45 secondsa number of years ago another board member had lunch with gideon levy in a cafeteria in tel aviv uh and we've hosted amir
49:5249 minutes, 52 secondshaas here in fort wayne and both multi-award-winning israeli journalists uh levy rights in support of one state
50:0050 minutessolution i'll just quote the conclusion is unavoidable if there's no longer any chance for two nation states
50:0850 minutes, 8 secondsthere's no longer any room for the left to talk about zionism only two alternatives to two states an apartheid state
50:1650 minutes, 16 secondsor a democratic state which would be bi-national uh it seconds what you were saying and
50:2350 minutes, 23 secondsamira hass and i'll let you then respond born to two holocaust survivors her column today in haaretz picks up on what
50:3150 minutes, 31 secondsyou're just saying write the headline palestinians should drag architects of the settlements
50:3750 minutes, 37 secondsto the international criminal court um you share a particular story that she
50:4550 minutes, 45 secondsrelates of her mother in bergen belson in which in which uh she saw that for her was an image
50:5450 minutes, 54 secondsuh a loathsome symbol of watching from the sidelines uh do you remember that story uh
51:0251 minutes, 2 secondsyou share that with us and how the experiences of her parents have really formed her and shaped her well she
Chapter 13: Driving Force
51:0951 minutes, 9 secondsbasically didn't want the horrors that her mother had to go through to be the horrors that
51:1751 minutes, 17 secondsshe and her country inflict on others this was her driving the driving force
51:2551 minutes, 25 secondsfor amir ahaz who has lived an incredible life she's lived in ramallah she's lived in the various occupied territories for years
51:3451 minutes, 34 secondsshe's learned the language she constantly writes her you know her point of departure is
51:4151 minutes, 41 secondsthe very fact that she herself was a you know the daughter of of holocaust survivors which meant
51:4951 minutes, 49 secondsthat she took that burden upon herself not to not to compete in the in the contest for the ultimate victim
51:5751 minutes, 57 secondswhich many israelis think that they are competing in but rather to become a better human being
52:0552 minutes, 5 secondsto be able to give to people who need it not oppression but support and that's what she's been doing her entire life
52:1352 minutes, 13 secondswithin israel she has been a sort of enigma because there are a lot of right-wing israelis who detest her not
52:2352 minutes, 23 secondsquite as much as they detest guidon levy i mean levy has a hate group italia it's huge
52:3252 minutes, 32 secondsum and i happen to really love them both so yeah about uh um
52:4052 minutes, 40 secondsi see that we only have a few more minutes left uh uh in our hour about your own story daphna uh you quote from hannah arendt on your facebook page
52:4952 minutes, 49 secondslast year relating to your own journey i've been thinking a lot about forgiving lately for my own personal transgressions as
52:5752 minutes, 57 secondswell as those of others and then you quote from her tradition of political thought forgiving attempts is seemingly
53:0553 minutes, 5 secondsimpossible to undo what has been done and that succeeds making a new beginning where beginnings seem to
53:1253 minutes, 12 secondshave become no longer possible usually in a non-political context forgiving is among the greatest of human
53:2053 minutes, 20 secondsvirtues that was very confessional on your part uh
53:2853 minutes, 28 secondswere these have these books been cathartic for you or uh i i don't get the sense that they've just been
53:3553 minutes, 35 secondsmerely intellectual academic exercises uh talk to us a little bit about these as part of your journey
53:4353 minutes, 43 secondsyou mean the hannah aaron books or in general though uh yeah and yes uh and this latest book uh
53:5053 minutes, 50 secondsright so i have been struggling with hannah aaron because it's obviously if you read her that
Chapter 14: Hannah Aron
53:5853 minutes, 58 secondsshe's not um an easy read you you have to sort of work with her writing and her writing
54:0654 minutes, 6 secondschanges over time and her thoughts change and one thing builds on another and in the human condition she basically
54:1554 minutes, 15 secondstalks about three essential conditions and i'm gonna maybe say things a little bit it's it's hard
54:2254 minutes, 22 secondsbecause i i'm not fully articulate yet with the course that i'm about to launch into but anyway
54:2854 minutes, 28 secondsshe talks about labor work and action um these are concepts that she has developed and
54:3754 minutes, 37 secondsaction is where you basically act with other
54:4354 minutes, 43 secondspeople to be able to create new beginnings and the new beginnings are also part of forgiveness
54:5254 minutes, 52 secondsin the act of forgiving it is possible not to erase erase the past
55:0055 minutesbut to create space for something new to happen where that past is no longer your
55:0755 minutes, 7 secondsreality and i think it's very complex but it helps me it helps me think that if i can if i can
55:1655 minutes, 16 secondsengage in action and it's getting harder to to do that especially since i live on an isolated island with 40
55:2555 minutes, 25 secondsinhabitants off the atlantic sea but it's very difficult for me to act
55:3255 minutes, 32 secondsin um a political sense but hannah aaron really felt that that was part of the
55:3955 minutes, 39 secondsmost essential um i suppose gift action um that a human being could
55:4755 minutes, 47 secondsparticipate in to be human one last question um if i were to write
55:5655 minutes, 56 secondsa sequel if i were to write a sequel a daphne of jewish voices of descent to zionism
56:0256 minutes, 2 secondsi'd include people like jeff halper rebecca vilkumerson formerly the head of jvp josh rubner
56:1156 minutes, 11 secondsbrant rosen alyssa wise and some others um who would you include and why so when
Chapter 15: Who would you include
56:1956 minutes, 19 secondsyou include this list yours is primarily based on americans of course the reason the book
56:2656 minutes, 26 secondsthat i chose was really other with with maybe a few exceptions people who either had fully immersed themselves in israel or
56:3556 minutes, 35 secondswere tangentially part of israel and in the epilogue to my book i think i mentioned the ones that i would
56:4256 minutes, 42 secondsprobably include that i didn't have room for because the and the publisher had a had a word limit but i would probably
56:5156 minutes, 51 secondsinclude melon ben vinishti jeff halper heimhonegbe adam keller moshe mahleville
56:5956 minutes, 59 secondsakiva o yaakov robkin michael velshovsky edith zerpal and biata silverson those
57:0657 minutes, 6 secondsare the ones that i would include and in fact i've often thought about them but these are obviously unknown to a large extent
57:1557 minutes, 15 secondsexcept maybe jeff halper to most americans and the reason i would do that and you probably
57:2257 minutes, 22 secondswouldn't is because i can read hebrew well and and and i uh uh i saw these in your epilogue and i wanted to give you a
57:3157 minutes, 31 secondschance to maybe pick one or two of them uh and tell us why you'd include them maybe uh well a prelude to
57:4057 minutes, 40 secondsyour next book so when i talk about um in the book i talk about a woman called
57:4757 minutes, 47 secondstikkva nick panas who was and is um she's about the age of uli of neri
57:5457 minutes, 54 secondsum she's a she's a socialist an extreme socialist um and she belonged
58:0158 minutes, 1 secondto an organization called matspin which in hebrew means compass and the founders of that were moshe
58:0858 minutes, 8 secondsmarcoville and akivao and i would really love to write a book but it wouldn't be the first book about matspin
58:1658 minutes, 16 secondsbut spen is probably one of the most influential voices of opposition from a socialist perspective to the
58:2458 minutes, 24 secondsstate of israel said that you cannot possibly be a socialist which israel wanted
58:3358 minutes, 33 secondsto present itself to the world in the original zionist narrative as israel is a socialist
58:4158 minutes, 41 secondsdemocracy she says you cannot possibly be a socialist and a colonialist at the same time so i would really like to sort of if i
58:5158 minutes, 51 secondswere to do that work on that angle um and some of the others are people that i know and respect and think that they have an interesting
59:0059 minutesstory you list a number of organizations here too uh in the epilogue to your book uh activist
59:0859 minutes, 8 secondsorganizations you know i you would know this obviously much better than myself uh
59:1659 minutes, 16 secondsthe the jewish left the israeli the israeli left uh has has had
59:2359 minutes, 23 secondshigh days low days more activists you know more non-activist days say a word about how important it was
59:3159 minutes, 31 secondsyou know bet selem just came out with this statement about israel as an apartheid state and it it still i don't know that it's
59:4059 minutes, 40 secondsit's been mentioned in the mainstream media all that much here in the united states uh it's been largely ignored uh except for those kind
59:5059 minutes, 50 secondsof media outlets that we activists kind of uh uh uh you know tune into you know but
59:5759 minutes, 57 secondsbut it seems to me that that was a very very important statement uh for an israeli human rights organization
1:00:041 hour, 4 secondsto make a i don't know if it's a game changer but it it it's approaching it at least in my own thinking
1:00:101 hour, 10 secondswhat what do you think about it i mean jimmy carter wrote a book about
1:00:191 hour, 19 secondsapartheid in israel so jimmy garner already kind of preceded betzel in many by many years
1:00:271 hour, 27 secondsi don't think that people even know what the celeb is unless they're involved in the middle east world um you all know what vetsela means
1:00:361 hour, 36 secondsright god created man in the lamb of god in the image of god so batella is from
1:00:441 hour, 44 secondsthat sentence the idea of man and man as a as a creature of god and therefore
1:00:531 hour, 53 secondsto be that to be elevated to that position there is an in a concern for honesty and and humanity
1:01:001 hour, 1 minuteand and kindness and goodness none of which we can see in the current israeli government so um i
1:01:091 hour, 1 minute, 9 secondsi don't know if it's going to be earth changing i think it's important that more organizations understand that
1:01:161 hour, 1 minute, 16 secondsisrael is an apartheid because it is i may never be allowed back into my country which
1:01:251 hour, 1 minute, 25 secondsof which i'd like to tell you i am third generation on my mother's side so it's it's quite a sacrifice not ever
1:01:341 hour, 1 minute, 34 secondsbeing able to go back daphna uh thanks for joining us today any last
1:01:431 hour, 1 minute, 43 secondswords for us i'll tell you what the hour just shot by for me thank you how would you like to close for us
1:01:511 hour, 1 minute, 51 secondsum i don't really have a prepared like what what what can i say i mean i wish that
1:01:581 hour, 1 minute, 58 secondsuh if covert were over and we could all get together and change
1:02:051 hour, 2 minutes, 5 secondsthe political world so that well maybe now that uh the orange menace
1:02:121 hour, 2 minutes, 12 secondsis gone we might have something more reasonable what worries me about biden and paris is that they are
1:02:201 hour, 2 minutes, 20 secondsblinded to some extent by the zionist myth and i'm hoping that they being slightly more reasonable will be
1:02:301 hour, 2 minutes, 30 secondsable over time to overcome um the fallacious constructs
1:02:381 hour, 2 minutes, 38 secondsof the zionist myth you held off for the whole time between before you called the previous president here the orange
1:02:461 hour, 2 minutes, 46 secondsmenace
1:03:351 hour, 3 minutes, 35 secondsyou
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