Palestine Part 2 – The Nakba to Apartheid | Office Hours
Dr. Roy Casagranda
234,765 views Sep 17, 2025 Office Hours with Dr. Roy
In this episode of Dr. Roy Casagranda and Jeremy continue their deep dive into Palestine. After opening with updates on their new podcast and addressing a common audience question about a World War II lecture series, they turn to the history of Palestine — beginning with the Nakba of 1948, the creation of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), and the rise of factions such as Fatah and Hamas.
Dr. Roy traces major turning points including the Suez Crisis of 1956, the Six-Day War of 1967, and Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territories. He explains how these policies have created conditions of apartheid, systemic inequality, and ongoing conflict in Gaza, the West Bank, and beyond. The lecture also explores the role of international powers, the formation of Hamas, the emergence of Hezbollah, and the broader dynamics shaping the Middle East today.
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Palestine Part 1: • Palestine Part 1 – From Ancient Roots to 1...
Palestine Part 2: • Palestine Part 2 – The Nakba to Apartheid ...
Palestine Part 3: • Palestine Part 3 – Is Reconciliation Possi...
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<팔레스타인 파트 2: 나크바에서 아파르트헤이트까지> 요약 및 평론
서론: 끝나지 않는 재앙과 구조적 폭력
본 텍스트는 카사그란다(Dr. Roy Casagranda) 박사와 제레미가 팔레스타인 역사의 두 번째 장을 다루는 대담 기록이다
요약: 억압의 연대기와 저항의 분열
1. 나크바와 영구적 난민화 (1948년)
1948년 이스라엘 건국 전쟁은 팔레스타인인들에게 '나크바(대재앙)'로 기억된다
2. 수에즈 위기와 제국주의적 야망 (1956년)
나세르(Nasser)의 수에즈 운하 국유화는 1956년 전쟁을 촉발했다
3. 6일 전쟁과 점령의 고착화 (1967년)
1967년 6일 전쟁은 이스라엘이 시나이반도, 서안 지구, 가자 지구, 골란 고원을 점령하며 세 배 가까이 영토를 확장한 사건이다
4. 하마스와 헤즈볼라의 등장 (1980년대)
카사그란다 박사는 하마스의 탄생 배후에 이스라엘과 미국의 전략적 의도가 있었다고 주장한다
평론: 도덕적 파산과 '백색' 위선의 역사
카사그란다 박사의 강연은 팔레스타인 문제를 바라보는 서구의 이중잣대를 강하게 질타한다. 그는 러시아의 우크라이나 침공에는 분노하면서 이스라엘의 점령과 폭격에는 침묵하거나 옹호하는 미국과 유럽을 '인종차별적 위선자'로 규정한다
가장 충격적인 통찰 중 하나는 하마스의 창설에 관한 부분이다. 저항 운동을 약화시키기 위해 극단주의 세력을 육성하는 전략은 결국 통제 불가능한 괴물을 만들어냈으며, 이는 현재 가자 지구에서 벌어지는 비극의 구조적 원인이 되었다
이 대담은 팔레스타인인들의 저항을 단순한 '테러'가 아닌, 정복당한 공동체의 당연한 '의무'로 재정의한다
결론적으로, 이 텍스트는 팔레스타인 문제를 해결하기 위해서는 물질적 안락함에 눈이 멀어 타인의 고통을 외면하는 서구 사회의 '침묵의 공모'를 끝내야 한다고 역설한다
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🔉 Dr. Roy Casagranda Podcast 🔉
Podcast Spotify ▶ https://open.spotify.com/show/6aebF9B...
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Chapters
00:00:00 Opening & Podcast Updates
00:01:15 Will Roy Ever Finish the WWII Video Series?
00:09:02 Israel Attack on Hamas Negotiators in Qatar
00:17:48 Propaganda & Survival
00:25:28 Palestine Conversation Continues
00:27:05 The Nakba of 1948
00:28:10 Gaza & West Bank After 1948
00:42:20 Palestinian Factions: PLO & Fatah
00:47:55 Suez Canal Nationalization (1956)
00:55:50 The Six-Day War of 1967
01:03:20 Occupation & Apartheid in the Territories
01:24:40 Rise of Hamas
01:28:26 Regional Dynamics & Hezbollah
01:35:20 Closing Reflections: Grace & Tolerance
n part—is strictly prohibited. Violations may result in takedowns, strikes, or legal action.
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Transcript
You're here with Roy and Jeremy. We are hanging out talking about all kinds of things. This
is part two of our our discussion about Palestine and we're going to get back
into it here in a little bit. Uh but first, a couple announcements. One, we have a podcast out now. So, this is
optimized for audio only. Uh we've taken out a lot of the kind of ums Roy clearing his throat and stuff. you know,
the things he do. So, if you enjoy listening to Roy,
if you want to listen to Roy while you're driving, going for a jog, cleaning the house, or what have you, all the different things we do when
we're listening to podcasts, uh, now you can. We have three episodes out now. They're we're just using lectures for
now that we've already put up on YouTube. So, we're starting with the first three of his lectures from uh at at the Museum of the Future. Uh, so go
give it a listen. uh rate it on wherever you listen to podcast, Spotify, Apple Podcast, what have you, and uh so more
people can find it. Thank you. Uh quick question for you, Roy, that I've seen
over and over and over. Are you ever going to do the World War
II video? Okay, I'm dying to do the rest of the
Will Roy Ever Finish the WWII Video Series?
World War II series. Um, the problem I have right now, and this is why it's I
haven't done another one, is the venue I'm using, which is the Museum of the Future, um, they trying to keep things
kind of upbeat and they're worried about how
close things are to World War II, that they're worried that if we talk about
World War II, it'll be triggering for people. And I get it. I get it. the, you know, the Museum of the Future is is is
a we see the world through possibilities and in innovation. That's that's their
theme. And so, uh, they don't want to have a Debbie Downer kind of video, which is what the
World War II ones will be. So, I just need to find a different venue. And, uh,
I'm working on it. There's actually uh a possibility there's a university I
might ask if they'll let me let me do some talks there and we'll see. So
because universities don't mind being Debbie Downers. I mean part of it it's a Debbie Downer
but also like that's just the nature of it. So if we can be the Debbie Downer that persuades the world like maybe we
shouldn't do World War II because it's going to be pretty bleak. it. I don't know if people have really looked in depth, but
the the death toll is quite high. It's Yeah. The world population kind of goes
down a little bit. It's not great. Yeah. I mean, it was 65 million people at a time when there were two billion
people on the planet. So, if you if you look at it that way, it's 8 million
people dying a year. You know, right? Because World War II starts in 37. I I know everybody was
taught it started in 39, but that's that's because you were taught that people from Asia aren't human. Uh when
Japan attacks China on July 7, 1937, that's what triggers the eight years of
World War II. And you know, 65 million people is is a brutal thing, but then
think of the technology they had at the time. Like I I wouldn't be shocked if
World War II is, you know, quarter billion people in two years. Um, and I'm
I don't think there'll be nukes right away because there's no reason to do nukes. Uh, the side that's losing would
just simply say, "Hey, we're losing so badly now. We've decided we're going to nuke everybody." And then you go to the
negotiating tables and the war ends. But because they have the nuke, literally nobody can lose. So all you will end up
doing if you trigger World War II is you will cause mass starvation because it'll immediately shut down most of the trade
networks. And we've become so interdependent on food deliveries that the that's
that'll be the number one killer is mass starvation. Um so yeah, I don't think
it's a good idea. So World War II created some really nice epic stories. I
don't see World War II creating the kind of epic stories uh just simply because it's going to be such a starvation
event. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot a lot of people don't consider that because a lot of
people don't know how to to survive on their own. We don't have that type of infrastructure anymore.
No, I mean we've we've completely made ourselves dependent on this grocery store model.
And there's in any given city at any given moment there's maybe two weeks worth of food in it. So if the trade
network shuts down I I don't see how we're we're going to be okay. And then
of course some cities are much more vulnerable than others. But you know like uh the least vulnerable place would
probably be Africa, especially subsaharan Africa, North Africa probably be pretty vulnerable. Europe will be a
disaster. Japan will be a disaster. I I suspect the United States can cushion
itself a little bit because it has a huge agricultural output. Canada would be okay, too. You know, Mexico would be
okay. But but you know, uh I I I would
think you're you're you're going to see really largecale suffering in the
biggest cities in the most technologically advanced places as a general rule. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, on that positive note, let's get into you know, post
I also don't like civil wars in case that was a question people were thinking about too. Yeah, they're really bad.
Don't do them. Yeah. So, as a as a I just want to make a clear statement here before we rehash
and get back into our our conversation on Palestine and Israel and the Leavant
area in general and getting up to uh closer to our current day circumstances.
Uh Roy and I abhore and oppose any sort of violence. So any sides I it's it's
it feels obvious to make these kind of statements, right? So like the the attacks on Israel, anytime anyone is
hurting someone else for whatever reason, it's wrong wrong every time.
Like that's just not what we should be doing as is is as humans. the I it's
like 95% or more whenever an act of violence is committed, it just creates
more violence. That's just the way that happens. Uh that said, I mean, this is
why we're we're talking about this. We're against violence. We're against what's going on uh to the Palestinian people, whe whether or not it's
starvation or uh deliberate attacks. Uh, Israel just launched an attack on some
Hamas leaders in Qatar. Um, at first my thought was these are militant leaders.
I don't think that was the case. I think one was uh a negotiation team. Yeah, this is a negotiation team.
Okay. Yeah. Uh, so this just kind of go ahead. No, I was just going to say by the
international conventions, you don't attack negotiators who are trying to end a conflict and they were in the middle
of negotiating a ceasefire. Yeah. So, this is it brings me back. So,
I you know this Roy, I I I'm a United States Air Force veteran. I served for six years. I got out over a decade ago.
Uh, this I I joined post after the post 911 fervor here in the United States. I'm like, let's go. let's go get them
terrorists. I don't know who them terrorists are yet. Um, but we were trained as to who the terrorists were.
They were the enemy. They were evil. These sort of things. And uh, once I was in, you know, you heard the very
familiar phrase, we don't negotiate with terrorists. This is from George Bush Jr., right? And and then I got confused
when I would see negotiations between, you know, our presidents and leaders from Hamas and the Taliban and these
these groups that we were trained were the enemy uh that were terrorists. So,
we're going to talk about that. Yeah, we're going to get into the Palestinian Liberation Organization because I know some people are like, "Hey, what about
this and that? You know, Hamas, what about Hamas? They're a terrorist group." Hamas is it depends on where you're from
from, right? So here in America, were we not terrorists to the British and the
American Revolution? Like these are we Roy will talk about it later. You guys aren't here to listen to me ramble on.
This is just something that I think we need to talk about in this conversation. Um so let's let's get back to where we
were last time. We we went back to ancient Levant people. uh kind of how they evolved the the struggle, the
constant struggle, the pilgrims of of the Jewish people into the Holocaust and and how all that led up to post World
War II. Um actually, should we should we actually do the Qatar attack first?
Israel Attack on Hamas Negotiators in Qatar
You want to go more into the Qatar attack? Yeah. And get that Yeah, go for it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean just just for to
understand the situation a little bit from a larger scale because I think I don't think people fully grasp how
significant this was. So, Israel attacks a negotiating team there. And so, you
have to first of all ask why. And the answer is pretty obvious. The the government doesn't want there to
be a ceasefire. And I think the fear was that the United States and Hamas were
going to make a deal and then that would force Israel to go along. So, the way to interrupt that would be to launch this
attack. As a general rule, you don't attack places where you're having negotiations, peace negotiations just
because you need a neutral space, right? Even in World War II, we we kept Switzerland open as a place where you
could have conversation with the other side. You don't ever want to be in a situation where you can't talk to the
other side at all. and and so this it's a really interesting thing to do this
because Qatar plays that role frequently when when um Trump was negotiating the
surrender to the Taliban. We surrendered in Qatar because that was where the
negotiation was taking place. Uh Qatar, I don't know if you all know this, is a US ally. We we have a military base in
Qatar. Qatar basically pays us1 $1 billion dollars a year to prevent
attacks on Qatar. That that's the deal. We get to use them as a base. We get to
secure the flow of oil in the Persian Gulf and in return
uh if anybody tries to attack Qatar, we will intercept the attack. We will prevent the attack. Well, Qatar has been
attacked twice this year. Once byon and now now by Israel. And so if you're a
Qatari, you're you're a policy maker right now, you have to be thinking, why are we wasting a billion dollars a year
on this? If we get nothing out of it, in fact, you know, Iran attacked Qatar
because they were trying to hit the US military base, like if the only thing they're getting out of it is a target drawn on their back, then they then they
maybe they need to start looking elsewhere for their security guarantees, like for example, the PRC,
right? Even Iran gave ample time like, "Hey, we're going to have a, you know,
a retaliatory attack on this base. Please get everyone out. This is just,
you know, for for Exactly." And and so, uh, at the end of the day,
it's not just that Qatar was attacked and the United States failed to stop it. Qatar was attacked by the United
States's colony in the Middle East. And so, you know, at that point, you're
thinking, "We gave you this airplane. We give you this money. We allow we we help
you coordinate with your strategic concerns. We help you negotiate surreners when you need it done." You
know what I mean? Like, there's this all this stuff that Qatar does for the United States.
I don't I for the life of me can't figure out why Qatar would work with the United States going forward. And then of
course it makes the entire GCC, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, and
Oman think why would we want to work with an an ally that that behaves like
this? Especially because uh at the end of the day, they they have
done the you know, UAE's done the Abraham Accords. There's been this huge attempt to try and bridge the gap with
Israel. There's there's the the mantra is Israel exists. We're not going to fight against it. We're just trying to
figure out how we can save the Palestinians from genocide. And now there's this
question like uh Israel is this rogue state that attacks all its neighbors. It's relentlessly
attacking all its neighbors and it doesn't follow international law and the United States protects it even at the
expense of its other allies. And so I think the I I think this is kind of a
moment of truth and reckoning. And the interesting thing is, of course, the
Trump administration doesn't know this. I don't think the Trump administration knows anything. So they sure as hell
don't know anything about how to have an operating foreign policy. So they don't I don't think they have any clue about
how seriously this is being taken in the region. Um the League of Arab States
will get together. They're going to meet. there's going to be a lot of, you know, angry talk. Usually that doesn't
result in anything. But I think in this particular instance, I wouldn't be surprised if you see some serious policy
changes. This is this was a setback for US foreign policy, especially now that Israel is saying they're thinking of
attacking again, right? Yeah. I think they they had that meeting and, you know, Netanyahu just
kind of said, "Ah, whatever. We're probably going to do it again." Right. which is
as a as a state, why would they be doing this?
This is a really interesting question because uh if I was Israel, an Israeli
policy maker, I would be trying to figure out how to how to create a a surrender a set of surrender terms. Is
Israel will always be in the state that it's in, which is a state of permanent war
with all of its neighbors. Even, you know, even though there's a treaty with Egypt and there's a treaty with Jordan,
the reality is that Israel is a rogue
state that attacks and bombs its neighbors on a regular basis. It doesn't care about treaties. It doesn't care
about human rights. It doesn't care about uh international conventions. It commits war crimes. It commits genocide.
It is. Imagine if in Europe Germany went nuts and began bombing the hell out of
its neighbors on a regular basis for decades. The world would be outraged. I mean, look at Oh, wait. Imagine if
Russia did this. Imagine if Russia attacked Ukraine and Georgia uh and
carved off a chunk of Malddova and called it Transnistria. And oh, I know what would happen. NATO
would lose its mind and would start spending billions of dollars trying to defend. Oh, so I get it. So if it's a
white person being attacked, it's horrible and it's a crime against humanity. But if it's a brown person,
uh, go Israel. That That's how it looks. That's the optics of this. And right now, Europe just looks like a bunch of
racist hypocrites. United States just looks like a bunch of racist hypocrites. I mean, we created the Geneva
Conventions and it's routinely ignored for the most part. I mean,
Israel has been coming up with legal excuses that these don't apply to them for decades for for all the things that
they're doing. And everyone's just kind of like, okay, okay. And not to mention everything, you know,
all the horrific events and genocides that happen in Africa that no one even pays attention to over the years. So I
think this one is what's happening in Palestine now tends to be more egregious because of the connection to the US
connection to Britain in the past. Uh, and I think for to a certain extent
social media cuz it's it's well captured and it just keeps going and it keeps growing and it keeps getting worse and
worse and there's so much contention behind it because even though it seems
such a horrific event, people are still defending it which is just shocking right um so that's I think
that's the hard part and we have incidents like Qatar and you know this the state of Israel the governing body
of Israel keeps pushing these somewhat outrageous things which the US government is doing also with a lot of
its decisions. So it's it's a hard thing to wrap our our heads around. So
yeah. Yeah, it it looks like the government of Israel just wants permanent war for all
eternity and um you know that sucks if you're Israel's neighbors and that's
probably not great for the Israelis either for that matter. So yeah,
especially there's they have compulsory service in their military as well. And so to a certain extent that has an
aspect of indoctrination, but it also has an an aspect of uh disillusionment
too because you can see firsthand the different things. So it might be a make orb breakak moment for individuals as a
but as a culture and as a society it's it's hard to say which direction that's going because some of them just leave.
Propaganda & Survival
Also, Israelis are propagandized in the same way that people in the US are propagandized. And there's a whole
segment of Israeli uh the Israeli society that doesn't fully grasp what's
happened to the Palestinians or who they even are. You know, there's there's this like disconnect. Some of it is cognitive
dissonance because they should know. And there's some of it is just the fact that Israeli news media is very careful never
to show Palestinian suffering. Israeli uh news media always shows the Israelis as the good guys. The Palestinians are
just these crazy lunatic terrorists and we don't even know why they're attacking us. They just hate us because we're Jewish or something. And you know, at
the end of the day, that's that's a bizarre oversimplification. It's worth pointing out that the Palestinians when
they were Jewish and they were stuck throwing rocks at the Roman Empire and fighting against the Roman Empire, they
didn't surrender then. There's no reason to think that they're going to surrender now just because they've converted to Islam and and Christianity. And so I I
you know the the irony of this of course is that there's this continuous line of
Palestinian resistance against European invaders uh because the centuries of dealing with
the Roman Empire and in the end the the Roman Empire is gone and the the
Palestinian people still survived. Mhm. I think Do you think it's just a matter
of survival then? Yeah. I mean, I think that's the the the most incredible form of resistance the
Palestinians can do is survive. And that's that's basically the mantra is just get through to the other side. And
you know, the hope is that at some point the Israelis will realize what are we doing? Uh yeah, I'm part German. My my
German ancestors left Germany in 1904. So, uh, we had nothing to do with the
Holocaust. I still feel guilt. I still feel shame. And I I I I identify as
German. I'm proud to be part German. I I speak German. I speak very bad German, but I still speak German. I lived in
Germany. Like, it's it's a it's very much a part of who I am.
And but it but there's that shame. And that shame never will go away. And that's what's going to happen to the
Israelis when they finally go, "Oh my god, what did we just do for 77 years?"
And you know, when you think about it, that's a legacy you probably don't want to carry forward. Um
I was talking to a white South African just the other day. Uh he was he was
saying something very similar to this. She was like, you know, as a white South African, I I have this legacy of shame
that I've inherited from apartheid and and I'm hoping the Israelis can figure out a way to get past this because, you
know, his mind this is the same thing. Anyway, for sure. Yeah. I mean, that's a hard
psychological thing for one person to deal with, let alone a society. We're still doing deal dealing with that in the US. I think it's become part of the
culture war here is that you know we will not feel shame for the things that we've done which is it's not necessarily
a healthy thing. I think that's feeling like something wrong has been done is the only way that we can make things
better. Otherwise you're just blinding yourself to continue doing the wrong
thing over and over. I mean 12step program. How many times do you have to go and apologize and and
admit you did something wrong? Like as a as a country of materialist addicts, we
need to go and make it right to the African-American and Native American
populations that we really screwed over. But you're right, like that is part of the culture war. There's a segment of
the population is like, "No, I didn't have anything to do with that. I'm an innocent victim here." And then there
and then there's the other part that's like, well, I'm personally innocent, but I'm the beneficiary of this this event.
It's like waking up one day and discovering that you live in a nice house and you you know, you you went to
a great school cuz your parents were able to pay the tuition and that your father was a mob boss and he was
murdering people and had an illegal prostitution ring and was a drug dealer and you you should feel some shame. You
should go, "Oh, wow. Maybe maybe the wealth that I'm enjoying right now sucks
a little bit. It should feel dirty. It should have a bitter taste in your mouth. Yeah. I think I think a lot of us don't
quite understand the generational impact of our past, right?
Yeah. So, like there are things that our our ancestors have done that have put us where we are today, not just
genetically, but exactly what you're saying. I mean, we're talking about the idea of privilege now at this point, but
but it's it's not just a term that's that's used in a in a culture war. It's
an actual thing. I mean, there's certain things that happen in our lives and in our parents' lives and and our grandparents lives that effect on our
current life situation 100%. And I think people just don't want to think about it. Going back to like a lot of the
people in in Israel, it's the same thing in the United States. We are trapped in our comfort and our
convenience. Yeah, it's true. And as soon as that's removed, we start paying attention. But as as long as we
can maintain our comfort and convenience, we don't really care about much.
Yeah. Which is unfortunate. It is. Yeah. There have been moments where we breached it without being made
uncomfortable, like materialistically uncomfortable. That that's what the 60s was, right?
that there was a moment where a bunch of people who were materialistically comfortable went, "Yeah, you know what?
I do care about black civil rights and women's rights and Native American rights and migrant farmworker rights and
I do care about the fact that we're committing genocide in Vietnam. I am going to go in the streets. I'm going to
put my body on the line and I am going to protest." Um, but those events in US
history since the 60s have been extremely rare. Prior to the 60s, we
were very much a protesting society. Um, we have a history of protests that that
go back to our founding, but since, you know, since January 1st, 1970, it's like
the patient may be dead, but maybe they're just in a coma. Um,
oh, wait, was that life? No, no, it was just Occupy Wall Street. I think we were more connected then,
too, right? So like there was more social pressure from friends and family and colleagues and like hey this is
something that's going on and like oh now I am uncomfortable because this person next to me has an issue with how
I'm thinking and now we we can just turn that off right because we're we're in
our tribe already. We've been we've been established. We only communicate in our own echo chambers. So
you realize what you've just said. We we were more connected back then when we
didn't have all these devices that connect us together. I 100% agree with
you, but it's so jarring. Like, wait a minute. I'm You're in the US right now.
I'm in the UAE right now. We're having a conversation like we're in the same room. But the reality is is in this
really strange way, we're less connected to each other as a community than we
were in the 50s and 60s. Yeah. It seems completely counterintuitive.
Completely counterintuitive and very upsetting. Yes. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's crazy.
Palestine Conversation Continues
All right, let's let's let's re let's uh let's go back over um where we left off
last time. Um we World War II had just ended, partition had just taken place.
Um do you want to talk a little bit about we talked about the end of last time? So the Arab Israeli war the the uh
Nakba Anakba and 1948 and just the
just I'll I'll let you take it from there. Okay. So the UN votes for partition in 47. Um the the Arab states and the
Palestinian people reject this. And the reason they reject it is they didn't they didn't understand why the Israelis
were getting 55% of the land where they own seven. They didn't understand why there was there was there was a separate
Jewishonly state being created when you could have just simply created a single secular state with guarantees for
Christians, Muslims, and Jews. And so in principle they they they rejected it for
principal reasons. This is this was basic human rights reasons, you know, like if you own 7% of the land and
you're getting 55%, what happens to the other 48? Like are you going to ethnically cleanse the place? Are you
going to do you know to uh Palestine? What you were upset Germany had done to
Poland? Like what is how does this manifest? And so they rejected it. So
Israel attacks in 1948. uh they they literally invade. They
declare their independence. They invade and they they begin a sequence of conquest events that the Palestinians
The Nakba of 1948
called the Nakba which means catastrophe. And one of the things that they did was they did a massacre at a place called
Darius where they literally just pulled out machetes and began chopping Palestinians to death. And the reason of
course for doing this was to create panic and it works. and a huge
uh event unfolds then where Palestinians are fleeing their homes out of fear that
there will be more of these hacking to death events. Um there are definitely
crimes against humanity that are being committed in this uh there are massacres that are taking place. There's plenty of
documentation about this. There's this is this is an established fact. And the
reason that they do this is because their goal is 80% Jewish, 20% Arab. Um,
and they're not going to be able to get that unless they can somehow convince the Arab population to leave the land.
And they do. They end up conquering 78% of Palestine. So, they don't get 55,
they get 78%. The the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are all that's left of the
Gaza & West Bank After 1948
Arab enclaves. and um they're they're they're too small
a chunk of land that and separated and they they were in no position to rule
themselves. So, you know, we were talking about last time was the British realized they
weren't going to prevent Israel from forming. So, their goal at that point was just the consolation prize is at
least we can stop Palestine from forming. And that's exactly what happens. Um the the West Bank and the
Gaza Strip both become basically giant refugee camps because the pal the majority of the Palestinians living in
both chunks of land were not from there. They were from other parts of Palestine and and ended up fleeing to there. A lot
of Palestinians of course flee to Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt as well. Um, so there there's refugee camps
being set up in those places and uh Jordan annexes the West Bank and Egypt
annexes the Gaza Strip. And the thinking, the justification for both
states to do this is somebody needs to run those territories. We have the infrastructure. We have the ability to
do it. So, let's just do it. Um, it is kind of a weird thing to do to be
honest, right? you know, like your your neighbor and ally just collapsed and
ceased to exist and you're like, "Oh, we'll just annex them." Um, I have my mother went to Jerusalem,
uh, I want to say in 1964, somewhere around there, and she she
brought back some souvenirs, and they say Jerusalem, Jordan. Uh, doesn't roll
off the tongue, but Ju Jerusalem was in Jordan, the Kingdom of Jordan. And so uh
the West Bank gets annexed and and then UNRA is created. So UNRA is the
UN organization that was established for dealing with the Palestinian
refugee crisis with the understanding that this is a permanent refugee crisis that will never be resolved. that the
Palestinians are going to for all eternity remain in the state of
permanent homelessness. They will not have a state. They will not have uh
passports. They will not h they will not be recognized as as a nation and they're
just going to be stuck in this. Um to mitigate it, they use Arab law. So they
they sort of used Arab law against Arabs um in in most Arab states, I don't know
if it's all, so I'm saying most, it might be all. Um, your
father determines what you are. So, for example, in Lebanon, um, marrying a
cross religion, it's totally legitimate in Lebanon. It happens all the time. Um, so like let's say you were, you know,
one quarter Drews, one quarter Shia, one quarter Sunni, and one quarter Marinite. So you're from four, you have four
grandparents from four different religions. Whatever your father is, that's your religion. Done. So if your
father was a Marinite, you're a Marinite. The fact that you're threearters Muslim doesn't matter.
You're a Marinite. You're now you're now Catholic because your dad was Catholic. End of story. So ENRA is set up so that
it only recognizes Palestinians who are born to a Palestinian father. Everybody else is considered to no longer be
Palestinian. So if you're if if you're you know uh 63 64ths Palestinian but
your dad your dad's lineage your dad's dad's dad's dad's dad's dad's dad wasn't
Palestinian you're not Palestinian that it's just that simple according to UNRA anyway I I bet there's a way to fix this
u but in any case that's that was the the the arrangement that the world basically made was okay Israel exists.
Palestine, you're dirt. Uh, you're dust in the wind. No one cares about you. Good luck. Uh, enjoy your refugee status
that the world has no plan for. Um, if it was so important to create a homeland
for Israel, why isn't it important to create a homeland for the Palestinians? Like, I have a suggestion. Here's what I
think we should do. We're punishing the Palestinians because Germany elected Hitler in 1932.
So turn about a fair play. Why don't we give Palestine a big chunk of Germany?
You know what I mean? And like maybe Bavaria or something and we can rename Munich Jerusalem or New Jerusalem or
North Jerusalem, whatever you want. And we just uh
force the German population to like concentration camps and ghettos and wall them off. Uh, you know, like we could do
I we could I I know what we could do with like everything south of the Danube. We could call it the South Bank
and then we could just have little Palestinian colonies go in there and carve off chunks and No. Does this Does
this feel bad to you, Jeremy? Yeah. I used to live in Bavaria, so Bavaria is
near and dear to me. So, I I went after a thing that I love. Let's continue the cycle. And let's Yeah. Oh my god, you're right.
Because then the Bavarians are going to need a homeland. Uh
I why not New York? We could just move all the Bavarians to New York and give
them New York state and then they could rename New York Munich or New Munich or whatever Mun and it'll be it'll be great
and they could like make everybody forcibly make everybody wear later hose and it'll be no and then then we'll have
to figure out what to do with the New Yorkers. Hey, there's a lot of space in upstate New York, so maybe
Yeah, I I remember one time driving through upstate New York and seeing a Confederate flag and thinking, "Oh, not
here, dude. You're in the wrong place. Alabama's way to the south." Like, h how
did you get this confus? Bless your heart. It was like that time when I was in
North Dakota and a guy walked in with cowboy boots and a cowboy hat. I was like, "No, dude. This is North Dakota.
You don't get to wear that. That's for the West. You're in the
Midwest. We're going to get a lot of hate on that one. Maybe. Hey, all cultures can do whatever
they want. No, not restrictions. Not whatever you want. Yes. Yes. I get a
I mean I No, you cannot have uh cowboy hats if
you're in North Dakota. that that I'm drawing the line. That's not acceptable. What if you're riding a horse, Roy?
You're going to have to do it like a fedora or something. Oh my gosh. I can't even imagine someone
on a horse riding wear riding a fedora. Wearing a fedora.
This is now I need I need someone to link a picture of someone on horseback with a fedora. That's insane. Okay.
So this is all happening um and it leads in 48. So this leads to a system of
apartheid. Yes. And and yeah and it
go go I was going to say about 25% of the population of the people that end
up in Israel are in fact Arab and they are given Israeli citizenship. So they
didn't get the 80% that they were aiming for, but they got 75%. So I guess they figured it was close enough. And so
Israel ends up with this kind of interesting situation where there's this
significant minor. Like just to put it in perspective, blacks are three 13.5%
of the US population. So the, you know, the Palestinian to Israeli ratio is
about twice the size of the African-American ratio to the rest of the United States. Um, so
uh, lots of literature pops up, lots of poetry, lots of lamenting. Uh, there's
an attempt to try to make sense of this. I think the the initial part of this for
the Palestinian population, the majority of what I think was being experienced by Arabs everywhere was shock. There was a
sense of um how could the world do this to the Palestinians after World War II? Like
how didn't the world learn the lesson from Germany's attempted genocide in Poland, Germany's attempted genocide in
Russia and Ukraine? You know, like how did the world not learn from Japan's attempted genocide in China? The the
cruelty that Japan inflicted in the Philippines and in Indonesia, like how
was it that we hadn't learned from this and now we're doing it to another people
on purpose? Like it's a UN mandate to do it. And I think there there was this
period of time where nobody knew what to do. Nobody could understand the situation. There was also another part
of the shock which was Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq all sent soldiers Jordan to
fight to stop Israel from being created to begin with and it was just one
incompetent military disaster after the other. So that you know in the end the
attempt to save the Palestinians from this fate was such an epic fail and at
some level it looked like these corrupt incompetent governments just simply couldn't perform militarily like they
just they didn't have like the Egyptian military had weapons that didn't fire and stearts that were half functioning
and so you know they brought tanks but you're like the the poor soldiers probably would have been better off on
foot um with hang grenade bundles trying to throw them on the back of the Israeli tanks. And so in the end, in the end,
there's this period of grief and shock and dismay and confusion that slowly
starts to percolate into an armed resistance and Palestinian organizations begin to form. And the problem is is
right, it's David and Goliath, except in in this particular case, you know, uh,
the Palestinians, David up against Goliath, they don't actually even really have the ability to throw to use a
sling. This isn't it's way past David and Goliath. It's like Goliath is behind a wall. Not literally. it is today
literally, but back then it wasn't literally, but militarily so that the Palestinians couldn't get to the the
Israeli military apparatus in any meaningful way. Um, and and the idea of
doing stonethrowing protests hadn't been formed yet, right? That isn't until the
first antifod, which is decades out. So there's this this idea of
uh how to do it and what to do slowly starts to turn into let's hijack
airplanes and uh let's let's do attacks on Israel that are that maybe bring
attention to the plight of the Palestinian people. The problem was is it was easy to villainize those those
attempts um because they looked they look like kidnapping. they look like uh
ugly violence against innocent people. And so the that type of resistance
had a really negative impact on the public the global opinion of the Palestinians even though the
Palestinians were attempting to do some form of armed resistance. Any person who's fair and rational and
reasonable knows that when your country is invaded and conquered, it is it's not
your right to resist militarily. It is your duty to resist militarily because
it is an not only an unjust thing, but it has put your your community in a
position of subservience, conquest, exploitation,
right? Like you have to do armed resistance. you don't have a choice and
it became I I don't want to say incompetent but it it wasn't effective the resistance that
they were doing in the beginning. One of the problems that the Palestinians had also was that there
were many different organizations, right? There were communists and socialists and nationalists and and uh
people who are Musl Muslim fundamentalist. And so what Nasser did was he
hosted these different Palestinian organizations and they together with
Yaser Arafat created the PLO and the PLO became an umbrella organization and brought all these other Palestinian
organizations into it. And one of the interesting things about the PLO is how democratic it was. It had fair
elections. They were pretty clean. there were, you know, serious attempts to to uh empower women and bring women into
the movement and and make women, you know, I wouldn't say equal, but at least on a or more equal footing and uh so in
many ways there was this there was sort of this talk of wow the most democratic most inclusive institution in the Arab
world is actually the PLO. Um and it and and because it was ideologically made up
of so many different organizations, it also had this kind of democratic sense in that these organizations that
normally would have been shouting at each other and arguing with each other were listening to each other and trying to cooperate. And you know, it wasn't
always very effective, but it was certainly better than what they had before the creation of the PLO.
And so, you know, you ended up with organizations like the PFLP and uh FATA
Palestinian Factions: PLO & Fatah
and they they're they're now working together at least to a degree. And and then comes 1956. So, just 8
years after Israel has conquered Palestine, um Egypt finds itself in a really
interesting situation. So, in 1952, the monarchy is overthrown. There's a series
of protests that take place in Midantir. It destabilizes the government. The military steps in and they end the
monarchy. The the the king and the royal family are allowed to leave Egypt with whatever they can carry. So, they leave
with a bunch of gold and jewelry and you know, they're doing fine. Um, but now
Egypt is going to have to transition over into becoming a republic. And one of the things Egypt was really
keen to do was create a military force that would make it so that it could
defend itself going forward. But to do that, they needed money
and uh they needed a person to buy the weapon systems from. And they had a they
had another problem and that was the Nile floods. Egypt really felt that
having your country flood once a year made you look like you were some backwards third world country. And so
there was this this psychological need on the part of the Egyptians to control
the flood. And um so the the goal was to build the Aswan
High Dam. The problem is Egypt didn't have the technical knowhow to build the Aswan Higham and didn't have the money
to build the Aswan Higham. So they they weren't they weren't in a position to do that and they they're they're going
through this revolutionary process. They're thinking about okay, we're going to need a constitution. What kind of a
state do we want to have? Do we want to have, you know, a democracy? Do we want
to have a socialist state? Like they're trying to figure all of this out. And
the first president of Egypt, um, Muhammad Najib,
uh, gets found out that the CIA is trying to bribe him. And so he just disappears. That's the solution to that.
I think he was president for a year before he disappears. Um, and and then
Nasser basically takes over formally at that point. He he had been sort of the puppet master prior to that. And so
Nasser starts working on a deal. The Germans come to him and the Germans go,
"We'll design the Asswan hideout and that'll give you the ability to to control the flood." And so Naser's like,
"Okay, so when do you start building it?" And Germany goes, "Oh, we can't this we we can design it for you, but we
can't build it for you." And and Nasser's like, "Well, how much are you going to charge us to to to design it?"
And Germany is like, "No, no, this is for free. We're giving Israel billions of dollars in reparations." So, one of
the dumbest things that happened in this story was at the end of World War II,
Germany was ordered to pay reparations to to the Jewish people. That part I I
totally believe in. Germany needed to pay reparations to the Jewish people. The part that's dumb is Germany was told
just give the money to Israel. Well, mo most of the Israelis weren't
victims of the Holocaust. What they needed to do is find the victims of the Holocaust, the survivors of the
Holocaust, and give the money to them. And that that would have been the correct thing to do. But instead, the
money goes to this brand new state that has just stolen its country and has
committed war crimes and crimes against humanity in in a similar fashion to what
Germany had done. And now Germany's funding it. So out of pure raw guilt,
Germany goes to Egypt and says, "We know we've just created a monster in the region. We know that they're going to
cause you all sorts of suffering and harm in the future. We have no money left paying Israel the reparations
bankrupted us. Our cities are in rubble. We're not in a position to we've been
chopped in two. The Russians have, you know, 30% of our land. um we're not in a
position to offer you any meaningful foreign aid to compensate for what's coming, what Israel is going to do to
Egypt in the future, but we'll we'll give you the designs for the swan highown. It's the best we can do. So
Naser's like, "Okay, great." And he he goes to the British and the United States and says, "Will you will you help
fund building this thing?" and Britain and the United States both agree they will help do this because you got to
remember Egypt is still technically uh part of the British Empire in a way.
So officially Egypt had a re revolution in 1919 and in 1920 was given
independence on paper but in reality Egypt is still a protectorate of the British Empire. It's still connected.
And so the United States and Great Britain are like, "Okay, yeah, we'll fund the the construction of the Swan High." Nasser then goes to the British
and says, "I want to buy weapon systems from you." The British are worried that if Egypt is militarized, it will
eventually throw them out. And the British want to control the Suez Canal. Like they believe that the control of
Suez Canal Nationalization (1956)
the Suez Canal is paramount for the functioning of what's left of the British Empire, right? Because India is already independent. Pakistan is already
independent. So they they're losing major pieces of the empire, but they still have this dream that they'll hold
on to some fraction of it. And so the British go, "No, we're not going to sell you weapon systems. You're on your own."
And so Egypt found somebody who would. It was Czechoslovakia,
communist Czechoslovakia. Czechoslovakia had amazing factories in
World War II that the Germans kept f operating and they were literally making
tanks. And so at the end of World War II, the checks had all these Czech and German
leftover tanks from the war. And so Nasser starts buying those weapon systems from communist Czechoslovakia.
England pretends to be outraged. You traitor. How could you work with
them and you're buying Nazi equipment? You're awful. And so England declares it
will not fund construction of the Swan High Dam. Nasser goes to the Americans.
Eisenhower is president, right? And says, "Are you going to still give you give us your half?" And Eisenhower said,
"Why? There's no point in building half a dam." And so the United States pulls out its funding. So Nasser is baffled.
He doesn't know what to do. He comes up with a solution. He's going to nationalize the Suez Canal. He's going
to take possession of the Suez Canal so that every time a ship passes through, Egypt will charge it money and then that
money will go to build a Swan High. He nationalizes the Suez Canal. Israel
invades Egypt. Israel does a paradrop in the Sinai and marches across the border,
goes into the Sinai with the hope in 1956 with the hope that the Egyptian
army will be lured into the Sinai to defend the Sinai from Israel. That's the
goal. Israel's the bait. And Nasser doesn't take the bait. The goal that the
French and the British were going had was once the Egyptian army was in the Sinai, they were going to capture the
Suez Canal, trapping the Egyptian army on the wrong side of the canal and then force it to surrender. But since Naser
doesn't take the bait, uh when the British and the French invade, they invade at Bured, they their plan can't
work. There is no way to capture the Egyptian army and Egyptian civilians pour into the streets and make any
military operation impossible. Eisenhower then uses this as a perfect opportunity to knock Britain and France
down a notch. And he basically goes to the UN and turns this into a UN thing.
And they actually send UN troops, Norwegians with blue helmets to go to
Bour with the goal of attacking the British and French if they're still there. And the British and French have
to do everything they can to scramble and get out. And they get out in time. The northern regions come in and then a
UN force is deployed into the Sinai. The UN force was supposed to be deployed on
the other side of the border in Israel, but Israel said under no circumstances will we allow a UN army into uh Israel.
So there's so it only gets half deployed in the Sinai and uh that's the end of
the 1956 war. So politically it's a victory for Egypt. There's no military
victory for Egypt because Egypt didn't fight it. They just stay they they just stayed out of the war and let the
Israelis, the British and the French run around not not ineffectively
uh doing a military operation that was then leading to UN intervention because
of the United States. Um Eisenhower of course was thrilled because he just knocked the British and French down a
notch. But it planted a seed in everybody's head. And that is Israel
wants to play with the big boys, the big white boys.
And as a result may be able you, the US and Europe might be able to use Israel
in a in the future in war in some capacity. like Israel just might be a
really useful venture. It's not just a racist one in that we're going to get rid of this brown population and replace
it with a white population. It it also might have some sort of strategic value.
And then as time goes by, they're going to realize it has a even better strategic value than that. Um it can be
a disruptive force, a force to generate chaos in the Middle East. So,
uh, Egypt sets up postal service for for Gaza. They they, you know, build
hospitals, set up schools. They make it so that any university that operates in
Egypt must give the Palestinians free tuition. So, the American university in
Cairo becomes free for Palestinians. Right? A little bit of a a jab to the
United States for, you know, creating the situation to begin with. And uh and
then in the meantime, Egypt gets big bridges. It's starting to think under
Nasser that it can create a United Arab Republic that at some point down the
road everything from Morocco to Iraq is going to be unified into a single state.
And Nasser in Nasser's mind, you start with a confederacy. He was going to call it United Arab States. And then as time
goes by, the member states can then join the republic and seed their autonomy and
become like the United States. So the U United Arab Republic was supposed to be like the United States and the United
Arab States was supposed to be like what the European Union is today. And uh
Yemen joins the United Arab States and Syria joins the United Arab Republic. Lebanon
and Iraq are debating joining the United Arab States or the United Arab Republic.
And there's a big political argument taking place in Lebanon. There's a big
political argument taking place in Iraq. Iraq has just had a revolution. And the United States intervenes
militarily into Lebanon, claiming that there's a civil war that they're trying to disrupt. What there was was they were
they didn't want Lebanon to join. Egypt and Syria have already joined. So Lebanon joining in would have made a
contiguous, you know, it would have given Syria's coastline back to this larger Arab state. And then the United
States threatened to nuke Iraq. So there's this like multicos event with
the United States in 1958 in the Middle East. Uh Nasser's experiment with Syria
collapses in ' 61. The Syrian military pulls Syria out of the United Arab Republic, but Yemen stays in the United
Arab States and Yemen ends up in a civil war. Saudi Arabia, Israel, Great
Britain, and the United States back the monarchists. Egypt backs the socialists who are
trying to create a a secular republic. And so it becomes Egypt and Yemen versus
Saudi Arabia, the United States, Israel, and Great Britain. And what's crazy is
some the it's Egypt's Vietnam because the Egyptians the Egyptian soldiers actually deploy into Yemen. They can't
tell the Yemenes monarchists apart from the Yemenes Republicans. Like they they
it's just chaos. uh there's the Egyptian military isn't equipped to have this kind of a war, but
it's doing it anyway. And then in 1967, tensions start to rise. Israel begins
The Six-Day War of 1967
doing raids into the West Bank. And Israel is attacking Palestinian refugee
camps in the West Bank. And the King of Jordan, King Hussein, is embarrassed.
He's humiliated by this. So, he starts pushing Egypt to do something about this.
and Nasser can't do anything militarily about it. He can't attack Israel. That's
not an option. So Nasser is trying to figure out what to do. And he feels like
he's being shamed by King Hussein because King Hussein is making public demands that Egypt somehow stop Israel
from crossing over into Jordan and attacking Jordanian territory. So Naser
comes up with kind of a compromise. Sometimes you have to be really careful with compromises. Very often it's better
to either do A or C. Doing B is frequently exactly the worst option
because you've split your attention. So he doesn't want to pull out of the Yemen
civil war because he really wants Yemen to come through on the other side as a secular socialist republic. and um and
and at the same time he needs to do something to support King Hussein. So he decides to go for a symbolic gesture.
The Straits of Tran are the point where the Sinai and Saudi Arabia almost touch. They get really close to each other. And
Israel had the city of Elat which is uh in the Gulf of Akaba. It Israel comes to
a little point and barely touches the Gulf of Akaba but it does. And there's a little town there. And Israel is getting
1 or 2% of all its imports into Elat. The other 98% of its imports went to a
Mediterranean town like Aka or Hif or Yafa or Tel Aviv. So,
uh, Nasser decides a way to do something,
it it'll only be a symbolic gesture, is to shut down the straits of Tan and to
say no Israeli shipping can go through the straits of Tran to Alat. And then he
doesn't do anything to enforce it. So, if you had a a ship heading there, you could just simply go through the straits
of Tran. It was purely a symbolic gesture. But even if he had, he would have only disrupted 2% of Israeli
imports. Like it this wasn't a make or break thing for Israel. And so he shuts
down the straits on paper and Israel goes, "You cut off the lifeblood of Israel. Israel can't function like this.
We're we're screwed." And Nasser starts Nasser does an epic disastrous mistake.
He orders the UN forces out of the Sinai. I to this day I can't figure out why he does this. like, okay, you're
going to do this really weak symbolic gesture. Why are you ordering the UN
troops out? Well, like, what's the point in this? He orders the UN troops out. And then he starts listening to Israeli
rhetoric and he starts thinking, my god, they sound like they're they're going to attack us over the straight the straits of Thran. So, he calls up President
Lyndon Baines Johnson and says, "Hey, is going to attack?" And Johnson goes, "No,
I promise you, under no circumstances will Israel attack." And of course, Israel attacks and it's the infamous
six- day war in 1967. The Israelis in six days completely
humiliate route the Egyptian, Jordanian, and Syrian army simultaneously
blitzkrieg style warfare that the German military in World War II would have been
proud of. Like it was blitz on the Hein Gudderian Raml level. Uh absolut like if
you hate Egyptians and you meet them just go six day war they'll immediately start to weep. Uh if the Egyptians could
could redo the number system they would just simply get rid of the number 67. There would only be 99 numbers in the
first 100 numbers uh just because it was such an awful humiliating defeat. In six
days, the Israelis blew up every single Egyptian Air Force airplane on the
runway. The Egyptians didn't even get one of them into the air so it could be
shot down. Like, how humiliating is that? And then to make matters worse,
the bulk of the Egyptian army is in Yemen. Like, it can't even respond. Like, there's nothing they can do.
In the aftermath, Nasser is humiliated out of his mind. He actually walks into
the middle of Midanta. There's a mob of people in the street in the in the
square. And he says, "I failed you. I I deserve whatever fate you give me. If
you want to, you can execute me right now and I will accept it." and they raise him onto their shoulders and they
parade him around and say, "You're our president." And he'll he'll be president of Egypt for another three years till uh
he gets I think it was three heart attacks. The third one kills him. Um
in the aftermath of this, the Israel or during the this the battle, the Israelis sank ships in the Suez Canal and now the
Suez Canal is the effective border between Egypt and Israel. And as a
result, nobody knows how to clear the ships out of the Swiss canal because it's a military zone. It's a it's a it's
the front line of a battlefield because even though Israel and Egypt are no longer actively shooting at each other,
the Israelis don't want the Suez Canal cleared out. So, they're not going to let the Egyptians do it. So, it kills
Egypt's ability to then charge for ships going through, but it also ends Europe's
ability to use the Suez Canal. It's a it's a take it's taken out of the global system for trade which was a disaster
for Europe. But Europe's willing to do anything to kill Arabs. Like that is as long as you're murdering Palestinians
and Egyptians, Europe's thrilled. So they're willing to disrupt Christmas
over this. Um so that the Gaza Strip and West Bank
then get absorbed into the Israeli uh state but not annexed. So Israel now
has full possession but Israel doesn't annex. And the reason is simple.
it is if you annex them, you would suddenly have a population that was uh
45% Palestinian. And if your goal is 20% and you're at 25%,
right, you're then 45% is going the wrong direction. Um, and that that assumes no right of
return. So that that means that the Palestinians in Syria and Lebanon and Egypt and Jordan and Australia and
United States and in Germany aren't coming back. It'll be 55%.
And then that also, you know, the Israelis probably were pretty good at math. The Palestinians had a higher
birth rate. So it was inevitable if they annexed the West Bank and Gaza Strip,
that at some point down the road, maybe, you know, as early as the 1990s, they
would become a minority in their state. So that that wasn't an option for them. They couldn't annex. So that's why it
Occupation & Apartheid in the Territories
becomes the occupied territories. Um, and then the Golan Heights gets annexed
from Syria. So that is according to Israel part of Israel. No, that that is
fully annexed. They ethnically cleansed uh the Syrian population out of the Galen Heights and then set up colonies.
They began doing the same in Egypt as well in the Sinai. So um
when the Israeli army attacked in ' 67, they they conducted massacres and they were genociding villages in the Sinai
just killing thousands of Egyptians because they were planning to annex the
Sinai. That was their goal. and they they were they were they began actually building colonies. They began setting up
settlements as part of their settler colonial project in the Sinai. Um and
then of course they have their eye on doing the same to the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. In that moment though there's
this confusion because on the one hand Israel's become an empire, right? It's more than double
its size now because it has the Sinai, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, the
Israel that stole in 1948, and the Golan Heights. And it's it's feeling like it's
on top of the world, like it's unstoppable. And and then there's a population of Israelis who thought that the
Palestinians were in a position of subservience in Egypt and Jordan, that they were they were mistreated. So there
was a population of Israelis who thought, oh, this is a moment for us to to create some kind of justice for the
Palestinians and and so they they they thought, oh,
we can, you know, they I don't think they had an understanding of how to do this, but there was on the part of some
Israelis a hope that this was actually a liberation moment for the Palestinian people. Um, the reality of course was
that the the majority of the Israelis saw this as a cheap labor source. they would pay them slave wages and then it
and then the Palestinians could build things on the land that the Israelis had
stolen from them and and so that it would be like this kind of cruel, sadistic, yeah, I'm going to pay you $3
a day for you to build a house on the land that used to have your olive trees on, but we bulldoze those olive trees
and now it's going to be a residential area. And so that's that was what the re
that was the reality the Israelis had imposed on the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip in the West Bank. It wasn't a
liberation moment. Um the PLO doesn't know what to do, right?
It's hijacking airplanes is not working the way they want it to. Attacking the
Olympics in Munich is not a great idea. like the they're doing things that are optically very easy for the Israelis to
villainize. Um they're ineffective. They you know the the hijacking the plane
that ends up in Uganda, the anti raid makes the Israelis look heroic. Uh and
then the Israelis have a problem. They they have to figure out how to make
this make sense to Europe and the United States, right? They don't they don't
care about how people feel about this in Brazil or Argentina. They don't care how about how people feel about this in Zimbabwe and Nigeria or Thailand and
Indonesia. They just need they feel like they just need to make this make sense in Germany, the United States, the UK,
Italy, France, that's maybe Spain, just Canada. And so
they need to somehow villainize the Arabs. The Arabs have to be the bad
guy because right we live in a world where the average person wants to
believe there's a good guy and a bad guy that we right this is this stupid
oversimplification. So if US imperialism is evil then Putin must be a good guy.
It's like no he could just be another evil guy. There's no reason to believe that he has to be the good guy just
because the United States misbehaves. Um, and this this need to have a good
guy and this need to have a bad guy, the Israelis realized the Arabs had to be
the bad guy. And so they began an active campaign
of trying to regularly portray Arabs as barbaric, misogynistic,
backwards, savage, corrupt, um, and
anti-semitic, which was of course incredibly ironic since Arabs are semites, right? And it
so all you had to do was just get Europe and the United States to believe that
anti-semitism only applied to Jews. It didn't apply to Arabs. It was a singular
ideology like for the Jewish people. And and then portray the Arabs as well, they
we're fighting for our survival because the Arabs hate us, which is nonsense.
They're not fighting for their survival. They are fighting to keep the land they stole. If they were really interested in
survival, they could do two really effective things to make that work. Leave, right? If they're really in
peril, they could just always leave. The other one is go make a peace deal. Make it so that the Palestinians have human
rights. That would end the struggle instantaneously. I was in Mexico City. This is a long
time ago. got my 20 years ago and there was a film
festival going on and I met this Israeli woman. I don't remember her name. Um,
and she said, "I know the way to make peace." And I'm like, "Wow, I just can't wait to hear this." Like, what what does
that look like? And she said, "One side has to surrender. Either the Palestinians have to surrender or we
have to surrender." And I go, "Well, how does you think how do you think that looks?" and she said, you know, my
preference is that Israel surrenders. Uh but but if the Palestinians did it,
that would also solve the problem. It never made full sense to me that what
does the Palestinian surrender look like that they accept that they're going to be permanent refugees for all eternity
stuck in the Gaza Strip, ghettoized in the Gaza Strip, ghettoized in the West Bank. Uh the Israelis of course started
building a wall system inside the West Bank. If you look at the wall the map of the walls like the cities are completely
encircled and then there are these corridors that the that the Palestinians have to travel through if you want to
get from one end to the West Bank to another. It's like 70 miles. Is that right? It's it's it's a tiny distance.
the 70 doesn't sound right, but from north to south and the West Bank is a tiny we're not talking a large chunk of
land and there I don't remember how many checkpoints a Palestinian has to go
through to get from one end to the other. So, you know, if if 70 mi should be or if the distance that it takes to
get from one end to the other it should be a two-hour drive, let's say, it'll take you all day plus part of the next
day because of all the checkpoints you have to go through. In the meantime, the Israelis have Israeli only freeways that
are built through the West Bank. So they can just zip around and like when we say
apartheid, like even the roads are segregated. It's not that
in the West Bank in the Palestinian territory that's supposed to become the the basis for a Palestinian state there.
there are Israeli only freeways and the Palestinians are stuck in these walled
off ghettos and so um the Palestinian population
finds itself villainized everywhere. And the I
remember watching movies in the 1980s and whenever Arabs were portrayed, they were almost always the actors were
Indian and I mean Asian Indian. And they're always portrayed as dumb
zombie-like evil religious fanatics. And you're like, Chuck Norris is beating up
more of these Arab terrorists who look like they're from like Lahore and
Kolkata. Like that's so weird. uh they don't look like they're from the Middle East anyway. Americans of course
don't know the difference. It's just a bunch of brown people, right? A lot of times we just use, you know, our Hispanic actors.
Yes, that's true. Although sometimes that's amazing. Like Anthony Quinn in Lawrence of Arabia, brilliant casting.
There's no Arab who's ever gone, "God, I can't believe how racist that was. That halfIrish, half Mexican actor who
portrayed us." Every Arab's like, "Yes, Anthony Quit."
That's so funny. So, do you think do you think this was more of an anti-Arab thing? What at what
point did it become like a creation of Islamophobia, do you think? Was that more after 9/11 or was that starting to
creep in between? I I don't I don't know if it was an ethnic divide or religious divide.
Yeah, it's so the answer is the anti-Islamic stuff is centuries old. It
I mean it was built into European culture. I don't know if we talked about this before, but it
we talking about crusades and stuff. Yeah, I do. We talk about the origin of
whiteness in Spain. So I I Go ahead. We were going to have to because I don't
remember and honestly repetition is good for learning anyway. So the basis for
this idea of whiteness actually originated in Spain during the Catholic
conquest of the Iberian Peninsula. So it's worth remembering there wasn't a
Spain yet, right? Because Isabella creates Spain. So Spain comes into being at on Isabella's death and then her
daughter Joanna becomes the first queen of of Spain.
So Spain is you know a little bit less than 500 years old. Um it's a lot older
than Italy which is 165 years old and
Germany which is 144 years old but it's uh United States is 95 years older than
Germany. to kind of keep things in perspective, but Spain is less than 500 years old. So, oh no, I guess it's just
over 500 years old. Um, so when I say Spain, I I would, you know what, to make
it clear, I'll just say Iberian Peninsula. That way, I'm not messing this up, right? Castile, Leon, Nevada,
uh, Aragon, Granada, Portugal. Those are the states that are in the Iberian Peninsula at the time. And there as a as
the intolerant religious fanatic Christians in the north are conquering
Muslim ruled south. So I'm saying Muslim ruled because the south was actually majority Christian. It was probably uh
60% Christian uh you know 35% Muslim and 5% Jewish maybe a little bit less Jewish
but in those the numbers are in those ballparks. And but but they were but the
south was ruled by Muslims. And in the south the goal was tolerance and coexistence and peace and trade and you
know just working together. In the north the goal was to get rid of the Jewish and Muslim populations.
But in the process because human beings like pecking orders were like chickens that way. um they wanted to come up with
some mechanism to differentiate whether a person had a lot of Jewish and
Muslim ancestors and you know it wasn't like they were keeping careful records. So it wasn't
like you could go through the genealogy and go oh yeah look you can trace my ancestry back 200 years and you won't
find a single Jew or Muslim. So what they came up with to compensate for their missing genealogical records was
skin color. The whiter you were, the less Muslim and Jewish ancestors you
were assumed to have. The darker you were, the more Jewish and Muslim ancestors you assumed to have. So then
the the the ideal of striving for light colored skin merged out of this
anti-Islamic uh movement that the Reconista
represented and by the way anti-Semitic because it was also anti-Jewish. So it was this
convergence of anti-Islamic and anti-Jewish hatred that was manifesting
itself in race terms with skin color and uh and it spread it spread from Spain
and it infested Europe like a little cancerous brain disease and by the time
Europe was done fully embracing this right there became this north south divide right because Spaniards and
Italians and Greeks are very dark you they're definitely not white white. They're are clearly off-white. But by
contrast, the Irish, the Scottish, and the Swedish, and the Fins are like so lovely. They're like elves. They just
missing the pointed ears. They don't have sun. They don't have sun. And so, um,
that that's actually the origins of this whole white supremacy conversation was
actually this anti-Jewish, anti-Muslim thing that was going on in Spain, ironically enough.
Interesting. Yeah. And so, so when we talk about the anti-Arab hatred, it was already tied
into this anti-Muslim thing that had been going on in Europe for centuries having so
what in addition to the anti-Muslim thing, there was an anti-Arab thing that had also going on for centuries because
it goes all the way back to even before the Crusades when the Arabs were conquering chunks of Europe. The
Europeans began to hate it. So they were they were intimately tied together. And I think the average American doesn't get
that being Arab doesn't mean that you're Muslim and being Muslim doesn't mean that you're Arab. That uh Arabs are a
minority of the Muslim population. Arabs are about onethird of the Muslim
population, maybe even a little bit less, 30%. And and for that matter, you
know, there are huge Christian minorities in Lebanon and Egypt. There are small Christian minorities in Iraq.
I don't think there's much left. I think the United States purged them, but also Syria has a a small Christian minority.
But if you were to roll the clock back, that Christian minority, if you go back 200 years, that Christian minority was
probably about 25% of the Middle East population. Uh the Middle East has been hemorrhaging Christians for the last 200
years. And some of that was, you know, bad local policies. Uh but but a lot of
that was just the effect of imperialism and the the
what Europe was doing to the Middle East. Um and a lot of those immigrants
ended up in Texas, Mexico, Argentina, and Brazil. Uh some even ended up in
Colombia for and so there was this huge North American and South American migration. If you go to uh Lebanon
today, you can see signs of that uh Christian migration out
because one of the things that's happened is some of them have gone back and uh so in in Beirut there's a statue
of the Lebanese migrant to Mexico and they have a Lebanese flag next to a Mexican flag. Uh I was in Batron.
Yeah, I hope I'm not messing up the towns. I was in Petron, which is uh in northern Lebanon, and we're walking
through this, it's a gorgeous little town uh on the sea. And we walk around the
corner and there's this Mexican church in front of me. And my mind is breaking cuz, you know, I've spent a little
enough time in Mexico to know what a Mexican church looks like, also Texas. And I'm looking at it just confused.
Then the Lebanese person I'm with goes, "This is a Mexican church." Confirming my confusion. And it the Lebanese
Mexican population had actually disassembled a church, brought it to Leadon, and assembled it in an act of
celebrating that this really strong connection between the two countries.
And I just thought it was the sweetest thing. It's really cool. Yeah. So,
so the the the twist in this is that a lot of this anti-Islamic hatred gets
heaped on top of Christian Arabs and for that matter Jewish Arabs and then uh you
know some of the anti-Arab hatred just gets mindlessly dropped on the entire Muslim world and and so there's it's a
it's a feedback loop with a lot of messiness intertwined in all of it.
Yeah, I think any any anytime we try and simplify the the villain, it becomes
super super frustrating because a lot of times if we keep doing that, it eventually will lead back to ourselves
and then which case we have a complete existential crisis. I mean, I totally agree. Especially if
you do, you know, do 23 and me and you find out, oh my gosh, I'm part Arab or
you know what, what have you or Ariana Grande
actually turns out she's part Moroccan. So if you hate Arabs, you need to start hating Ariana Grande. I sus I suspect
that a lot of the people in the United States who hate Arabs also probably hate Mexicans and people from Latin America
in general. So I don't think it probably made a big difference in Ariana Grande's life. That's That's fair. That's fair.
So, you talked a lot about like the PLO and kind of how their operations weren't weren't working because they're easily
villainized. How did that eventually evolve into Hamas? Aha. So,
okay. The United States and Israel were really keen to split the Palestinian movement.
They really really badly wanted to create some kind of counter movement
within the Palestinian liberation movement to to hurt the PLO.
And so uh with a lot of money and some
support uh Hamas was actually created by its presum enemies uh you know
co-founded with Israel United States and
of course worked very effectively. Hamas not only turned on the PLO uh currently
runs Gaza separate from the PLO which runs the West Bank. So effectively
there's you know people are talking about the two-state solution. The two-state solution is already in effect.
Like if you're waiting for the two-state solution it's like waiting for the battle of Armageddon. The battle of Armageddon took place 3,500 years ago.
Spoiler alert. The Hittites and their Seemetic allies were defeated by the Egyptian army led by Tutmas III. You
you're waiting for something that's already in the past. I am so sorry. Like
and this is this is not conspiracy or anything. It's just that's how it is. Um
and um that's that's effectively what the
result was today, right? We are already in the two-state solution only. a three-state solution because Gaza and
the West Bank aren't operating as a single state. They're they are operating as two separate states. So in the 80s,
early 80s, the Hamas is created. It's funded by the United States. It's funded by Israel. It it got a lot of funding
from Qatar as well. Uh there's always this, oh, Iran, Iran, Iran, Iran
definitely sends it money. I don't want to diminish Iran's uh support for Hamas,
but at the end of the day, Hamas gets more of its support from the US and its allies than it does from Iran. So like
if if if the US and its allies cut off the funding of Hamas, it would it would have run out of money a long time ago.
But we wanted you know this opposition force against the PLO,
especially one that was easy to villainize. So in Hamas's charter, it says it wants the destruction of Israel.
So at that point, like there's no way to negotiate. So Hamas becomes the perfect
permanent villain. There are Islamists, so they're Muslim fundamentalists. So
that's easy to villainize as well because built into every fundamentalist religious movement, whether it's Zionism
Rise of Hamas
or Islamic fundamentalism, is a profound intolerance for all other religious groups. And you know who who likes those
guys? Certainly not the people who aren't that from that group. And so uh
that's the basis for which the creation of Hamas was undertaken. And then of
course in by the time we get into the 80s we we end up with the first inif
which is an it's a stonethrowing uprising against the Israeli state. And
Hamas really takes off during that time period. It gets a lot of support. One of the things that drives fundamentalism
everywhere on the planet is the economy. There have been multiple papers done
about this. So like for example, if you look at Egypt, when Egypt's economy is coming down,
Islamic fundamentalism goes up. You could do this with the United States. If you go to the poorest parts of the
United States, you will find they have the highest rates of Christian fundamentalism.
the economy is inversely related to religious fanaticism and intolerance.
And it's it part of the reason is, you know, you you're literally going to the
person and saying, "Look, I know this life sucks, but if you if you do X, Y, and Z, uh, you're going to get a great
heaven on the other end." So, it gives the person a little bit of hope. So, that's one reason it does this. Another
one is the the poor people think, well, I'm in this position because there's a
corrupt government that put me in this position, corrupt policies that put me in this position. So, how do I fight
corruption? Well, if that person is religious and they really believe, they won't be corrupt because religious
people are good people. And so, there's this I mean, anybody who's studied history knows this is not the case. the
world's great religious leaders are usually not the good people. And but you
know, if you're poor, you probably don't spend a lot of time reading history and uh going through, oh, look what Pope
Alexander was like. Um you know, you're probably not like flipping through and going, "My god, he had his girlfriend on
his knee when people were kissing his ring, when his kiss kissing his papal ring. Um his son Ches Boura tried to
conquer Italy for him." And you're like, "Wait a minute. The Pope had a son?" Yeah. I believe he had at least two sons
and a daughter to be honest. Uh so um there's so there's this misalignment,
right? This lack of information leads you to believe ironically because if you had any information, you know not to
that somehow religious fanatics are going to liberate you because they're not dirty and corrupt. And so Hamas does
really well in in the period of time when it becomes clear that Palestinians
are going to have no home, no jobs, no economy, that they're stuck in these
ghettos and they're they're trapped. Um it's worth pointing out that Israel
attacks Lebanon in 78 and then withdraws but leaves a force in South Lebanon. And
then Israel attacks Lebanon in 82 and conducts a full-on war and goes all the
way to Beirut and enter Beirut. And at that point, the whole Arab world is
freaking out because Israel is is basically, you know, like they're slaughtering the Lebanese population,
killing tens of thousands of Lebanese and wrecking Lebanese towns and cities, and it's all in pursuit of going after
the PLO. So the PLO had relocated itself to Lebanon and was fighting trying to fight Israel from Lebanon. Um the PLO
had at one point is this the origin of of Hezbollah at this point? Okay. So you're right. Um Iran has the
Regional Dynamics & Hezbollah
Islamic revolution in 79. Hezbollah was one of the major forces in the Islamic
revolution in Iran. Hezb means party. Allah is God. So, party of God and um
what a a few members of Hezbollah go to Lebanon because Iran has decided it's
going to help train the Shia population in Lebanon. The uh the Shia are the
larger portion of the Muslim population and Lebanon by the 80s was probably about
55% Muslim. um you know it's probably 30 35% Shia. So Iran thought how do we
protect that Shia population that they send the the Iranians send a group of
volunteers to Lebanon to start training and helping those Shia Lebanese
uh develop a coherent militia of a militia that can resist uh Israel. It
can resist the Palestinians for that matter. It can resist anybody. It'll it'll protect the Shia population inside
Lebanon. And of course, when Israel attacks in ' 82, the Shia can't wait to
get that kind of support from Iran. And I don't remember what they originally called the organization. They didn't
call it Hezbollah in the beginning. And uh and then what ends up happening is when
Israel invades Beirut, the United States panics. And the United States goes, "Oh
my god, no. You've gone too far. This is too messy." So Reagan comes up with a
solution. The United States, Great Britain, France, and Italy will invade Beirut. And we'll do Israel's dirty work
for Israel in Beirut. And because you have to remember Lebanon's been in a
civil war from 75. So at this point, it's been in seven years of civil war. So So the Lebanese are busy killing each
other. The Israelis are coming in killing the Lebanese and the Palestinians. The Palestinians are also involved in the civil war and and so the
United States, France, Great Britain, and Italy are going to go go invade, do Israel's dirty work in Beirut, and then
act like we're peacekeepers, and that way Israel can keep its hands from getting too dirty. And so the Israelis
agree, we invade, we divide the city up into four quadrants. The Italians refuse
to do combat missions. They're basically just going in with a bunch of hospital personnel and they're running around
treating wounded Lebanese and wounded Palestinians. And Reagan's like, "No, no, no. You need to send a combat
force." And Italy goes, "Screw you." And withdraws. So it ends up just being the British, the French, and the Americans.
And um a a communist
that that's how I remember it. I hope I'm not screwing this up. communist attacks uh the US embassy in basically a suicide
attack and that kind of plants the idea wait a minute we need to be fighting the
US embassy and the the US forces and then eventually of course that leads to
another attack on the US embassy which was much bigger and much more deadly and then there's the attack on the US
Marines and the French peacekeeping force and I don't remember the the the
death tolls in those three those three big attacks. But it's it's enough that the US and the French really lose their
taste for this. One of the reasons why Reagan was so keen to invade Beirut was
he thought he could do another 1958 like Eisenhower did when he invaded Lebanon.
He he also believed that there was a a disease that had taken over the American mind and he called it the Vietnam
syndrome. And it was this unhealthy aversion to war that that the
humiliating route that the United States had experienced in Vietnam had pushed the American public into sort of like a
pacifist anti-war place. And Reagan believed that if if the United States could get a good win somewhere that it
would help the American public overcome the Vietnam syndrome. So he thought
Beirut would be his big win. Um, you know, it's US population was what
probably 250 million people. I I'm guessing Lebanon's population at the time was 4 million people. It's always a
fair match when you outnumber the other side 60 to1 and have a GDP that's a thousand times bigger. So, of course,
the American public's going to end up with enormous pride from this. After the bombing happens and I think it was like
300 Marines die, um Reagan had reinforcements heading towards the
Mediterranean to go to Lebanon, he turns them around and sends them to Grenada and we invade Grenada to distract the
American public, but also to get a win. I think Grenada has a total population of like 70,000 people at the time. So,
you know, like and we do we get this crazy win. And of course, our our argument is that it's a domino. It's
falling to the communists. What happened was Grenada wanted to expand its tourist industry. To do that,
it needed a bigger bigger build a bigger airport and they basically put out bids.
They asked for bids and a Cuban and East German company were the lowest biders.
So, the United States went in there and uh started taking shots at bulldozers to
stop uh communists from building an airport. And you know, we made a big deal out of it because we had a bunch of
those there was a quack medical school that doesn't actually teach you medicine, but you'll you'll get MD after
your name and there was a group of Americans there uh getting the substandard education. So, we pretended
we were we were protecting these medical students instead of sending them to prison. We we we escaped them out of the
country and had the cameras rolling and it looked glorious. And Reagan's like, "Yeah, people are chanting USA, USA."
And it's like, "Really, for this?" Like, I'm I'm ashamed telling the story.
I'm still stuck on we attacked. So these these are communists who
participated in uh the free market. Yeah.
You'd think we'd be proud of them. Go Cuba, East Germany. Yeah. Way to under us.
Oh my gosh. Oh, the the irony. But
the irony. Yeah. Yeah. When humans stop being hypocrites, it I'm I'm pretty sure it's just we went
extinct. Like I don't I don't know how that would I don't know how that would happen.
Oh, I think I think we'd live in in a if we practiced humility and grace, uh we'd
Closing Reflections: Grace & Tolerance
live in an entirely different existence than any any of us have ever experienced, I think. Oh, yeah. I agree. would that's we'd
we'd be back in in in the garden so to speak. Yeah, it would be amazing. Like imagine
like I don't know the answer to everything if people would just say that every once in a while. That would be just so helpful. And then yeah, I don't
know what that person's going through. I'm just going to give them the grace and assume they're doing the best they can in this moment instead of judging
them. Like, wow, what a weird world it would be. Yeah.
Oh man. Oh man. fun. I think there's there's a lot that you covered. You covered a lot of things
that I want to talk about. Uh you just you were just going and I didn't want to interrupt you. Uh we can we can
continue. I think this is uh quite a bit for now. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I'm burnt out.
And uh and we'll end on that happy note of of grace and humility and and you
know, loving our neighbors rather than immediately judging them and and hating them. Actually, what's interesting is
I'm going to talk about an event, a leader, an event uh that's grace and
humility. I I forgot what we call the event. Uh it's it's not the one in September, it's the one in October. Um
uh might be grace and tolerance, I think. Uh
grace and tolerance. Yeah. And I think the goal of that was to create a series where I talk about
grace and tolerant events. Grace and Tlerance and History October 23rd.
Yeah, that's it. And uh I am tickets are still available. So if you want to go and watch Roy live at the
Museum of the Future, you can. Also, if the tickets say that they're sold out, they're always pulling in more chairs.
So yeah, we're supposed to do 50 chairs and I think we regularly have a hundred.
So, which is funny for those of you who don't know the the early videos that we have on YouTube when you see like just
like 10 students and stuff and it's like man this is the amount they were there for extra credit
they weren't there for fun well so that was postco when we were having like 10 people precoid we used to
have big turnouts well I mean when I started with you it was pretty low sometimes but true we had
good we had good times Yeah, there were some big events that we
had too. I don't think many of those got recorded though, honestly. I think you started recording like Cal Jillson's talk. We we
packed the house for him. Yeah, I was going to say most of the most of the talks were not you. I think
I think there were other because our video started as we wanted to have other lecturers come in and talk and uh
yeah we had a Carl Marx talk with uh Harry Clever and that was huge turnout
for that. Clever was awesome. He deserved big talks uh or big turnouts.
Big talks and big turnouts. Yeah. All right. So, thanks everyone for
watching and next time we'll get back into this. Um, we might go more into I didn't even we didn't even get to talk about the origins of you know terrorism
in terms of the the the the
word and the use of it as as for a security term and political term which I
next time. Okay. I think it's from the reign of terror from the French Revolution is is my guess. I feel like the French
Revolution uh started a whole new way in
in contemporary everything in the world. You get nationalism, you get terrorism, you get the fall of fall of the
monarchies. It's a lot of stuff going on there.
You get beautiful art. All kinds. Look, the French Revolution was many things, but one of them that it was was it
flipped everything upside down. It upended everything. The French knew they
knew how to do revolution. There are very few revolutions in the world that were that earthshattering.
Yeah. Yeah. And maybe next maybe next talk we we will get to uh I don't know if this is going to be three parts or four parts
but I would like to end on a helpful note of like what you know what
what hope looks like what can be done for those who are looking to begun whether it's you know peaceful aid or a
solution of some sort um or if there even is one but anyway I don't know if that's next time or the time after and
uh anyway okay but next time we're going to start with terrorism
We're going to end on a good note and start the next one on uh what sounds really bad because it can be but it can
also be a manipulative tool. It's everything, right? Spell. Okay. Yeah. Thank you, Roy. Thank you everyone for
listening. Uh we'll catch you next time. Um as always, please comment. Um we we
read some of them. You guys comment a lot. We appreciate that. We love the discussions. uh we like to sometimes we
see we'll implement what you have said into our talks. Anyway, thanks for listen listening to office hours and
Roy's lectures. Again, uh check out the podcast and rate it and uh talk to you
next time. Bye bye.
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