Democracy Now! Thursday, February 12, 2009
* Former Speaker of the Israeli Parliament Avraham Burg:
"The Holocaust Is Over: We Must Rise From Its Ashes"
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대화 내용
발표자 1
a new coalition government. The general election ended in a near draw with Foreign Minister Zipi Livni Kadima Party in first place with 28 seats and former Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, a close second with 27 seats. But Netanyahu will have an easier chance at assembling a coalition government following a strong showing by minor parties that are even more right-wing. The differences between the two leading candidates are slight. Both support attacking and blockading Gaza and the continued takeover of Palestinian land in the occupied West Bank. On Wednesday, Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad said any Israeli government must end the occupation.
발표자 2
Tangible steps have to be taken to end the occupation that began 1967. this process.
발표자 1
Some Israeli dissidents have suggested a Netanyahu government might be preferable in the long term. Writing in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, Israeli journalist Daniel Levy says -- quote -- Netanyahu's election is likely to bring the curtain down on the great fraud, the lie of negotiations and the injustice of the peace process. Israel consistently claimed these acts proved the nation was focused on peace and the end of the occupation, all the while it did everything it could to further entrench the occupation, and distance any chance of a potential agreement?
발표자 3 Amy
As Israeli leaders continue talks and assembling a coalition, we're joined now by a former Israeli politician who's emerged as one of his government's biggest critics. Avrun Berg is a former speaker of the Israeli parliament, the Knesset. He's former chair of the Jewish Agency and the World Zionist Organization. His new book, though, is called The Holocaust is Over. We must rise from its ashes. We welcome you to Democracy Now.
발표자 2 Avraham Burg
Good morning.
발표자 3
You're headed back to Israel today, but we'd like to talk about another journey. How you went from where you were as head of the Israeli parliament in the Labor Party to where you are today. Talk about your trajectory.
발표자 2 Avraham Burg
Next question. (Haha)
easy but at the time I felt that political was closing on me. I had a feeling that Israel became a very very efficient kingdom. These are being done. These are being executed but... vision or direction. Where is it going? I started digging into it and looking into it. And the way I know where for myself is by writing. So I wrote the first book, which was God's book. It's about the religious dimension of world conflicts and the Israeli conflictual reality. And I read it. I didn't write about the other items which supports our identity. And this is the omnipresence of the truth in our life, which is what prevents us to trust.
발표자 1
The world For raised this kind of a reality and the middle realized that this is my inner truth And you talk in the book about a Hold so much power and influence over the thinking of Israelis. Could you talk about that some more?
발표자 2
Holocaust was like a trauma that it takes for individuals years if not more than years to overcome who was abused as an individual at a young age can overcome limbo. I was not at all sure that Israel and the Jewish people can go out of it. I mean, it happens. And then...
발표자 3
Parents...
발표자 2
My parents... 39, which is the very moment. And my mother was a seventh generation. is a survivor of the massacre then. So we were born into reality, but we were trying to free family. The more I think about it, the more I thought about it, I understand that it is not about yesterday we remembered, we are different people. Oh no, it's lost. And the importance of it is that the generation of my children will be the first generation without any living witness. That will be the generation in which the personal experience becomes a memory. What will be the shape of the memory, the cloning of the trauma or a beginning of the trauma to trust? I offer the beginning of the beginning in my book.
발표자 3
I'd like you to go back further. I mean, you were the speaker of the Israeli Knesset. You were the head of the World Zionist Organization. Explain that, how you rose to power within the Labor Party and as head of the World Zionist Organization, what it is.
발표자 2
I was for many years a kind of a strange bird, okay? I was once my father was the leader of the National Religious Party, and he was for many, many years the cabinet of Israel for 48 to 88 that he was elected to the Knesset and he read. I knew something about Israeli politics, but my position was different than my father's. It was always more humanistic and less introverted. It was always more universalistic and less nationalistic, etc. I was one of the professors against the war. Arena, it became whatever. a promising promise.
발표자 3
What happened to you in that protest movement?
발표자 2
During this protest, among other things, I was wounded in the handgun.
발표자 3
Explain what happened.
발표자 2
There was an administration against the wound... ...bitrement of the **** minister, which was a handgun at the top of the bridge. at the time I was wounded then and then slowly I walked into the ladder. I thought it was the right thing. Oslo arrived and the Israeli euphoria was part of the possible but supported Oslo evaporated. one of the signatures and initiatives of the Geneva Accord and Civil Society effort many efforts and the reason for me is the primary reason the 67 reason and this is the grip of the get a little bit more relaxed about it and understanding as difficult and painful as it is, it can only solve prison through which we see the world. Realization never again. Therefore, we should have the speaking swords around us and the next shelter on top of us, but never needs my protection. Never again, whomever is the victim today, needs the help of me today's victim to prevent me either on it's about a women be it off for me be somebody in the inner city of Detroit be to wherever it is only to say you know we're not we're suffering and that's it on Natasha you were still a party in house and the last major peace negotiations are the the the.
발표자 1
Movements come down from those days is that the Palestinians walked away from the best possible deal that they could get uh with uh Ehud Barack could you talk about about time and and and the assessment that is still so widespread and here especially here in the United States it will be very.
발표자 2
Difficult to undo the to undo the past and yes I understand that this is how people I'm not at all sure it is right when you read the memoirs people who were involved in the process you know that it David was an ill-prepared summit and the sides were not were not and it was the other said I cannot I cannot it's not yet ready and then months later went to Taban and I'm not into this I'm not into the into the game of That was the only second you started the audible emptying in your life. The people standing in the line, and one day we shall revisit the past. I don't want to argue with you because you've become a hostage of today's genius rather than a liberated person, a liberate nation, a liberate region. That's what I'm looking for.
발표자 3
Do you think that the Israeli government should speak with Hamas?
발표자 2
No doubt.
발표자 3
Have you spoken with them?
발표자 2
Everybody is available, both in the region and because it's impossible. I see them in Israel, I see them in London. And one thing I have to think in mind, the first is, I don't remember even one funeral. I love coming out of London. The second is, I'm not going to be on this history. We rejected somebody, we were missing one. These extremists is tomorrow's moderate. And I asked myself when... Explain that. When will be the time in which we will be better... We missed the opportunity to talk about. Here at 57. The first thing we did, we hit the occupied territories, all the kings who king Hussain Jordanian supporters. Then we now walked in. So we were the supporters of the king when we needed him. We were the ones. the solution, never talk to the people, never talk to them. We didn't talk to them and we didn't talk to them. We say, where is the moderate pillow? We want to we we we missed so many years ago. They will come. Qaeda will be there in Gaza. Global Islam front and some of the Palestinians will be disconnected from the national political reality and become part of something else. Then I'll say, where is Hamas? And I say, as difficult as it is, it is there. What will happen? You build out your war, you go for more unilateral hero goals, and still as . You're here, Amy. I want to talk to you.
발표자 1
The role of the Jewish community in the United States, where there is even no one in its approach and more in the Palestinians that in Israel can you talk about?
발표자 2
Jury is an unbelievable jury in the last 150 some years the Jewish people actually created two political entities the sovereign and the semi-autonomous American Jewry it is left of sovereignty but never did we have influential diaspora in our entire history and I love it because I as an Israeli express the national dimension of myself and world Jewry especially American Jewry expressing the universalist interface between us and the rest of the world he said outside in I see so many of my colleagues and friends making and trying to portray and do American jury into a single issue jury, Israel, and that's it. No domestic coalitions, no minorities, no responsibility for other social and universalistic affairs. I'm concerned with it. Very much so. And I love feeling that sometimes we're having three political entities: the United States of America, the sovereign state of Israel, and the independent state of AIPAC, which was its own policy, whatever it is, It's working for the best interest of Israel according to the way I understand it and Ishaq have been understood it and not according to the best interest of the United States of America. This is because of the filth which will be the darkness through it rather than through it. And I would like to see the altar which is expressed through the and humanism and civil rights and a total commitment toward peace is the one which expresses me.
발표자 3
As you speak right now, Avram Berg, just down the road outside the World Zionist Organization here in New York and the Jewish Agency, the organizations you used to head, there is a 24-hour protest that is being led by Jews against these organizations.
발표자 2
This is the answer, what is the question? Right. I have to love people to express themselves. I mean, politically, when people go out of their homes and they're not passed, they just watch the TV there to the next and that's it. But it may... They think so, the protest movement is good to go into a much deeper understanding between us and us. Let me look at the outcome of the... So everybody is worried by the big building who is who bases his movement. American Jews who made it all. So there is something wrong with some quarters and some neighborhoods of the Jewish philosophies and Jewish thinking that we have this internally.
발표자 3
And third.
발표자 2
Oh, yes, yes.
발표자 3
And we'll make the coalition. What if you represent? What about the asking Israeli Arabs to sign loyalty oath?
발표자 2
Lieberman is recognizing for me two kinds of the first is what happens when the world which is a phobic just months ago I hear it in in Europe with Heider and Blocher, Jean-Millepin and other and it's the one thing which troubles me a lot because it is about racism it's about Jewish hatred and Jewish xenophobia and I have to to face it personally.
발표자 3
Me what about the US government and what's happening now the US House and Senate passed resolutions in support of the Israeli attack on Gaza um what is your thought on that mistake why?
발표자 2
Because this is still the of the of George Bush that never mind what Israel is doing never mind what I'll never say no for the world American interest and it's wrong for Israel. 400 meters from my window when America permits itself, wrongly so, but permits itself to be for a bora. America will withdraw from these places. But I have to live with the impacts of all of these constricted congressions. And therefore, from the White House, what I'm expecting from the new president, from the new Senate and the Congress is to reintroduce Darwinism, violence, to reintroduce conversation rather than continue with the cowboy policy.
발표자 1
And we've had both a former president and also one of his top aides at the Carter Center talking about the in.
발표자 2
Palestinians I'm sure you're familiar with President Carter's proposal what what do you think of it as as a a realistic politics and realistic possibilities that especially over there but in most of this would it be would it be here what eventually could be there most is the arch enemy of the region the revolution Regime. Regime. Conversations to all of the. Not a comprehensive coalition. Syria and Lebanon. And. Then it's devil. That's the way they see it. That's an opportunity. There is an open.
발표자 1
Proposal of President Florida specifically to trade land connecting Gaza West Bank for some of the land on which the current settlement started.
발표자 2
They said this is. These are deep. Because what will be a 69 and one of the rules reporting?
발표자 3
Should Israel pull out entirely from the West Bank?
발표자 2
No, actually yesterday, yesterday evening. No, not. It looks our morality and it contaminates our policy. And we of the Messianic eschatological policy which actually leaves Israel the solution which discriminates one people over the other. the same time the Palestinian Society was kidnapped and held hostage by the hands of this cathological fundamentalist and both societies must get rid of the reason the kidnappers and get over the Stockholm syndrome with my kidney we will be able to talk to each other.
발표자 3
And finally do you support the divestment movement here divestment movement you just heard in our headlines that Hampshire College in Massachusetts has become the first college to divest from companies that are doing business with the Israeli military.
발표자 2
It stands against my value system to boycott earlier in this program and earlier in my totally committed conversation even with my worst enemy so boycott is not a tool for me boycott is an expression of violence.
발표자 3 Amy
Thank you very much for being with us. He is the former speaker of the Israeli Knesset, former chair of the Jewish Agency, former head of the World Zionist Organization. His new book is called The Holocaust is Over. We must rise for its acts. Is it democracy now? When we come back, is your privacy being blown to bits?
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vraham Burg와 책 이야기를 하지만 내용이 그 이상인 것 같아요. Avraham Burg의 발언의 내용을 자세히 요약해주세요.
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전 이스라엘 국회의장 아브라함 버그(Avraham Burg)는 <Democracy Now!>와의 인터뷰를 통해 이스라엘의 정치적 현실, 홀로코스트에 대한 기억의 방식, 그리고 평화를 위한 파격적인 제언을 내놓았습니다
## 홀로코스트의 극복과 기억의 전환
버그는 그의 저서 <홀로코스트는 끝났다: 우리는 그 재 속에서 일어나야 한다(The Holocaust Is Over: We Must Rise From Its Ashes)>를 통해 이스라엘 사회가 과거의 트라우마에 갇혀 있다고 진단했습니다
트라우마로부터의 해방: 홀로코스트는 이스라엘인의 사고를 지배하는 강력한 권력이 되었으며, 이로 인해 타인을 신뢰하는 능력이 마비되었다고 주장합니다
. 기억의 세대교체: 목격자가 없는 첫 세대가 될 자녀 세대에게 필요한 것은 트라우마의 복제가 아니라, 이를 신뢰로 바꾸기 위한 새로운 기억의 형태입니다
. 보편적 인권으로의 확장: <다시는 반복되어서는 안 된다(Never again)>는 구호는 이스라엘만을 위한 방어 기제가 아니라, 현재 고통받는 전 세계 모든 피해자(다르푸르, 디트로이트 등)를 돕는 보편적 원칙이 되어야 합니다
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## 이스라엘 정치와 점령에 대한 비판
그는 과거 노동당과 세계 시오니즘 기구(WZO)의 수장이었음에도 불구하고, 현재 이스라엘의 정책에 대해 매우 비판적인 입장을 취합니다
방향성 잃은 국가: 이스라엘은 매우 효율적인 국가가 되었지만, 정작 비전이나 방향성은 상실한 상태라고 느꼈습니다
. 점령의 종식: 1967년부터 시작된 점령이 이스라엘의 도덕성을 오염시키고 정책을 망치고 있다고 보며, 이를 끝내기 위한 가시적인 조치가 필요하다고 강조합니다
. 보편주의적 가치 추구: 민족주의보다는 인본주의와 보편주의를 지향하며, 평화와 시민권에 대한 전폭적인 헌신이 필요하다고 말합니다
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## 하마스와의 대화 및 외교적 제언
평화를 위해서는 적과의 대화가 필수적이라는 것이 그의 확고한 신념입니다.
하마스와의 대화: 이스라엘 정부가 하마스와 대화해야 하는가라는 질문에 <의심의 여지가 없다>고 답하며, 오늘의 극단주의자가 내일의 온건파가 될 수 있음을 역설합니다
. 미국 정책에 대한 비판: 이스라엘의 행동에 무조건 찬성하는 조지 부시 식의 정책은 이스라엘에게도 해롭다고 지적하며, 오바마 행정부가 폭력이 아닌 <대화>의 정치를 재도입하기를 기대했습니다
. 보이콧에 대한 입장: Hampshire 대학의 이스라엘 군 관련 기업 투자 철회(Divestment) 움직임과 관련하여, 그는 보이콧이 폭력의 표현이며 자신의 가치 체계와 맞지 않는다고 언급했습니다
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## 유대인 공동체의 역할
미국 유대인 사회: 미국 내 유대인 사회가 이스라엘이라는 단일 이슈에 매몰되지 않고, 보편적인 사회 정의와 인권 문제에 더 책임을 다해야 한다고 우려를 표했습니다
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버그는 이스라엘이 과거의 고통을 딛고 일어나, 피해자 의식에서 벗어나 세계와 소통하는 민주적이고 인본주의적인 국가로 거듭나야 한다고 강조하고 있습니다
추가로 궁금하신 부분이 있나요?
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미국 유대인 사회에 대해서 더 자세히 모든 포인트를 적어주세요
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아브라함 버그(Avraham Burg)가 인터뷰에서 밝힌 미국 유대인 사회에 대한 견해를 정리해 드립니다. 그는 미국 유대인 사회를 매우 독보적인 위치로 평가하면서도, 동시에 현재의 활동 방향에 대해 깊은 우려를 표명했습니다.
## 미국 유대인 사회의 위상과 성격
독보적인 영향력: 유대인 역사 150여 년 동안 주권 국가인 이스라엘과 반자치적인 미국 유대인 사회라는 두 개의 정치적 실체가 형성되었으며, 역사상 미국 유대인 공동체만큼 영향력 있는 디아스포라는 없었다고 평가한다
. 보편적 가치의 통로: 이스라엘이 유대인의 국가적 측면을 대변한다면, 미국 유대인 사회는 유대인과 외부 세계 사이의 보편주의적 접점 역할을 수행한다
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## 현재 상황에 대한 비판과 우려
단일 이슈로의 함몰: 많은 동료와 친구들이 미국 유대인 사회를 오직 <이스라엘>이라는 단일 이슈에만 매몰된 집단으로 묘사하고 바꾸려 한다고 지적한다
. 사회적 책임의 실종: 이스라엘 문제에만 집중하느라 미국 국내의 연대 형성, 소수자 문제, 그리고 기타 보편적 사회 문제에 대한 책임을 방기하고 있는 점에 우려를 표한다
. 정치적 실체로서의 AIPAC: 미국, 이스라엘과 더불어 <AIPAC(미국-이스라엘 공공정책위원회)이라는 독립 국가>가 존재하는 것처럼 느껴질 때가 있으며, 이들이 이스라엘의 진정한 이익이나 미국의 이익보다는 자신들만의 정책을 펼치고 있다고 비판한다
. 인본주의의 회복 필요: 유대인 사회가 인본주의, 시민권, 그리고 평화에 대한 전폭적인 헌신을 통해 자신을 표현하는 모습으로 돌아가길 원한다
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## 유대인 사회 내부의 균열과 변화
내부적 항의: 인터뷰 당시 뉴욕의 세계 시오니즘 기구(WZO)와 유대인 기구(Jewish Agency) 밖에서 유대인들이 이 기구들에 반대하며 24시간 항의 시위를 벌이고 있다는 점을 언급하며, 이는 유대인 철학과 사고방식 내부의 문제를 보여주는 신호라고 해석한다
. 비판적 시각의 확산: 이스라엘의 가자지구 공격에 지지를 보낸 미국 의회의 결정이 조지 부시 시절의 잘못된 정책을 답습하는 것이며, 이것이 이스라엘에게도 결코 도움이 되지 않는다는 비판적 시각을 공유한다
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버그는 미국 유대인 사회가 이스라엘의 대변인 역할에만 머물지 말고, 유대교의 인본주의적 전통에 따라 더 넓은 세계와 소통하고 책임감을 가져야 한다는 점을 강조하고 있습니다.
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